Terbutje is a 19-20 crit range. It's a fragile weapon, but I think it loses the fragile quality once you make it masterwork (or magic, can't remember which).
masterwork
From the D20pfsrd
The root of the wyrwood tree has a peculiar quality. When a weapon constructed of wyroot confirms a critical hit, it absorbs some of the life force of the creature hit. The creature hit is unharmed and the wyroot weapon gains 1 life point. As a swift action, a wielder with a ki pool or an arcane pool can absorb 1 life point from the wyrwood weapon and convert it into either 1 ki point or 1 arcane pool point. Most wyroot weapons can only hold 1 life point at a time, but higher-quality wyroot does exist. The most powerful wyroot weapons can hold up to 3 life points at a time. Any unspent life points dissipate at dusk.
Wyroot can be used to construct any melee weapon made entirely of wood or a melee weapon with a wooden haft. Constructing a wyroot weapon that can hold 1 life point increases the weapon's cost by 1,000 gp, constructing one that can hold up to 2 life points increases the weapon's cost by 2,000 gp, and constructing one that can hold up to 3 life points increases the weapon's cost by 4,000 gp.
doesn't that mean that it can any weapon that has a handle can be wyroot?
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doesn't that mean that it can any weapon that has a handle can be wyroot?
Yes under the literal definition for haft the hilt of a sword qualifies but when most people (myself included) think of the word haft they picture longer hafts suck as the staff portion of a great ax, naginata, or scythe. Under that logic the best weapon you could get to qualify for wyroot would be a nodachi.
Just buy a wyroot club and coup de grace helpless targets to rebuild ki between encounters :(
I believe wyroot does not work with coup de graces because you need to confirm a crit threat.
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doesn't that mean that it can any weapon that has a handle can be wyroot?Yes under the literal definition for haft the hilt of a sword qualifies but when most people (myself included) think of the word haft they picture longer hafts suck as the staff portion of a great ax, naginata, or scythe. Under that logic the best weapon you could get to qualify for wyroot would be a nodachi.
Yeah, I wasn't sure about the "haft" requirement. I'd imagine a sword would not qualify. I think a nodachi is something you'd have to ask the specific GM about, since, really, it's just a big sword. Though Pathfinder does classify it as a pole arm for some reason. Keep in mind, it's described as having a 4 foot blade, and it is not a reach weapon, so how much "haft" can it have? It's one of the best weapons in the game already, and it's probably got the best argument for an 18-20 crit range weapon that works with wyroot. Maybe the fauchard would also qualify (unless that's assumed to have a metal shaft).
I suppose the sansetsukan and the heavy flail would also qualify for other 19-20 crit range options. The sansetsukan has the advantage (like the dan bong) of having the "monk" weapon quality, though Monks are not proficient with it. It's bashing, though, so no making it Keen. Improved Critical is still an option.
None of these, of course, are weapons the Ninja is proficient with, though most are martial not exotic, and a nodachi might be worth a feat, a level dip into fighter, or using Heirloom Weapon/masterwork transformation. It's just that good already, and if your GM rules it works with wyroot, it's a fantastic weapon for a THF ninja. I generally play PFS, so unfortunately wyroot is not legal for my ninja or my monk.
Ninja are far from OP, but I find in PFS play they hold their own better than they might in highly optimized play, thanks to the "herp derp" factor. When the other characters at the table are two monks,a fighter and a healing based oracle, a ninja can feel pretty useful... especially when they're the only one who thinks Diplomacy is worth having.
doesn't that mean that it can any weapon that has a handle can be wyroot?Yes under the literal definition for haft the hilt of a sword qualifies but when most people (myself included) think of the word haft they picture longer hafts suck as the staff portion of a great ax, naginata, or scythe. Under that logic the best weapon you could get to qualify for wyroot would be a nodachi.Yeah, I wasn't sure about the "haft" requirement. I'd imagine a sword would not qualify. I think a nodachi is something you'd have to ask the specific GM about, since, really, it's just a big sword. Though Pathfinder does classify it as a pole arm for some reason. Keep in mind, it's described as having a 4 foot blade, and it is not a reach weapon, so how much "haft" can it have? It's one of the best weapons in the game already, and it's probably got the best argument for an 18-20 crit range weapon that works with wyroot. Maybe the fauchard would also qualify (unless that's assumed to have a metal shaft).
I suppose the sansetsukan and the heavy flail would also qualify for other 19-20 crit range options. The sansetsukan has the advantage (like the dan bong) of having the "monk" weapon quality, though Monks are not proficient with it. It's bashing, though, so no making it Keen. Improved Critical is still an option.
None of these, of course, are weapons the Ninja is proficient with, though most are martial not exotic, and a nodachi might be worth a feat, a level dip into fighter, or using Heirloom Weapon/masterwork transformation. It's just that good already, and if your GM rules it works with wyroot, it's a fantastic weapon for a THF ninja. I generally play PFS, so unfortunately wyroot is not legal for my ninja or my monk.
I the DM! I was just trying to figure out how he's broken, and apparently he isn't.
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I the DM! I was just trying to figure out how he's broken, and apparently he isn't.
Ah, sorry. I went back to the original post, and, apparently, yes, he was broken, because he was using Ki Charge with a full-attack. As others pointed out, that's not legal. That, alone, should bring his damage output down to something more reasonable.
You may not want to mention the wyroot discussion to him, then. :)
But, really, you have to work very hard to get a ninja build that competes with most two-handed weapon martial builds for damage, so as a class, it's not over powered.
The ninja I'm playing is level 6, so improved critical isn't currently an option
Ninja's suffer from the same problem as rogues. That is they can't hit. Level 6 is their sweet spot. Both Rogues and Ninjas shine between 4th and 8th level. After taking the hit on BAB and level 9 they start their decline and by level by level 13 they become useless.
I'll explain what I mean by useless:
1) Skills: By level 13 the rest of the party can cover the skills the Rogue/Ninja used to handle as the skill DC max out and the skills of everyone else get to the point that a spread of 3 characters can cover them. Next add in spells to round it all out.
2) Sneak Attack: Sneak attack become largely too dangerous to attempt. Getting into a flanking position on monster that can take you out in 1 round isn't a good idea. You used to use sneak attack to take out the monster before they got to attack but no you are missing with 1/2 or more of your attacks. So now you become an opportunist taking out what the melee guy or caster left you and even that is not needed.
3) Traps: Traps become trivial by 13th level. They are easily detected and avoided. They can be triggered and absorbed. It's not like low level were a trap was deadly.
4) Sneaking: Really not need when everyone has access to invisibility. Even the fighter can have potion or two of it or a ring.
What is left for the rogue or ninja to do other stand back try to look cool while doing nothing(a Hyperbole to show my point)? Definitely not over powered.
Now this just what I've noticed in games with Rogues and Ninjas. The rogue/ninja starts out decent and climbs to a power by 4th and becomes a tough member of the party up to 8th. Then they start the slow slide to mediocrity from 9-12th but the real problems don't show up till 13-20th level.
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Ninja is underpowered.
Sorry. I had to repeat this.
In general, the Rogue/Ninja is the weakest class in Pathfinder.
If you ever think otherwise, then there is an oversight.
On occasion, you will have a party that is so poorly built, that the one well built Rogue/Ninja will seem powerful in comparison.
This is usually not the case though.
In general, the Rogue/Ninja is the weakest class in Pathfinder.
If you ever think otherwise, then there is an oversight.
Monks vs. Rogues! No matter who wins, everyone loses!
Monks vs. Rogues! No matter who wins, everyone loses!In general, the Rogue/Ninja is the weakest class in Pathfinder.
If you ever think otherwise, then there is an oversight.
Monks at least have the advantage of having good archetypes. Rogues have the worst archetypes in the game, and the ones that are actually good don't improve the class that much. :(
Monks at least have the advantage of having good archetypes. Rogues have the worst archetypes in the game, and the ones that are actually good don't improve the class that much. :(
Ahh, I was just making a joke while I could. Most Rogue archetypes just make me sad. I had someone argue with me that charlatan was a great archetype the other day, when personally I thought spy did the same job better and still neither are really amazing imo.
Monks at least have the advantage of having good archetypes. Rogues have the worst archetypes in the game, and the ones that are actually good don't improve the class that much. :(Monks vs. Rogues! No matter who wins, everyone loses!In general, the Rogue/Ninja is the weakest class in Pathfinder.
If you ever think otherwise, then there is an oversight.
2WF Rogue/Ninja
and
Flurry Monk
both make a flurry of Misses, the monk loses accuracy if they don't flurry
at least the Rogue/Ninja
can do the following
a Half-Orc Str Build with a Falchion, Power Attack, Furious Focus, and a High Crit Range and do damage on their one swing that surpasses the monks one swing
because either way, they will most likely only hit on their first swing
Well, Rogues have the same accuracy as a non-flurrying Monk. And 2~4 less feats.
If we are going to mention Half-Orcs with Falchion (none of which are a Rogue class feature, BTW), we should compare it to Temple Sword Monks.
Rogues advantage is that they have twice as many skills, which is nice. And trapfinding... Which is either useless or incredibly boring.
Well, Rogues have the same accuracy as a non-flurrying Monk. And 2~4 less feats.
If we are going to mention Half-Orcs with Falchion (none of which are a Rogue class feature, BTW), we should compare it to Temple Sword Monks.
Rogues advantage is that they have twice as many skills, which is nice. And trapfinding... Which is either useless or incredibly boring.
even if you ignore racial proficiencies
you can still do a viable strength rogue with a longspear, power attack, furious focus, and the same strength methods you would use for a fighter
mithril breastplate only requires one of the following
a fighter dip
a feat
a 5,000 GP armor enhancement
a trait tax
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I just felt the need to clarify, that a nodachi is not classified as a polearm. It's still a sword, it just has brace for anti-charge usage, because it was the weapon of choice against cavalry in feudal Japan.
"Nodachi: This very long two-handed weapon has a slender but wickedly sharp 4-foot-long blade at one enc. It is predominately used by ground troops to attack mounted warriors, and can be used to hack riders from their mounts, or set to receive a charge."
I agree that this is probably how it should be, but Pathfinder throws some doubt into the situation by including the nodachi in the Polearms weapon group for fighters in addition to the heavy blades group. Looking at what a nodachi is, I'd probably say no to it being made from wyrwood, but I can understand how someone might think it could be if they just look at Ultimate Combat and don't actually google a picture of it.
Just an alternate POV to “Ninjas can’t hit.”
I do think that the ¾ BAB really hurts Ninjas, and I feel that rogues should get Weapon Finesse for free, but there are ways around it.
I run an STR based Ninja. He struggles far more with staying healthy than with hitting, but he spends much of the time invisible so getting hurt is thankfully rare.
LVL 8 Angel Blooded Aasimar Ninja
STR 20 (With a belt of giant strength+2, and boosts at 4 & 8)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16
His “normal” attack pattern is:
+1 Keen Katana: +13/+8
• +6/+1 BAB
• +5 from STR
• +1 from magic weapon
• +1 from Weapon Focus: Katana
Nearly all the time though, his attack pattern is actually
+1 Keen Katana: +19/+14.
• Same bonuses as before, PLUS
• +2 from Invisibility
• +4 from flanking with Outflank (or +2 from regular flanking if you can’t convince your party to get the teamwork feat. For us, it was a no-brainer.)
• And all this vs. the target’s Flat Footed AC.
With this build, I’ve not struggled with hitting at all. And it actually makes sense to me that Ninja shouldn’t be able to take a lot of damage. The idea behind the class is being difficult to find and killing your enemy before they realize the danger.
you can still do a viable strength rogue with a longspear, power attack, furious focus, and the same strength methods you would use for a fighter
And Monks can do the same...
a fighter dip
a feat
a 5,000 GP armor enhancement
a trait tax
Yeah, dipping into other classes gives you cool stuff. Not really a merit of Rogues, though.
you can still do a viable strength rogue with a longspear, power attack, furious focus, and the same strength methods you would use for a fighterAnd Monks can do the same...
Yeah, dipping into other classes gives you cool stuff. Not really a merit of Rogues, though.a fighter dip
a feat
a 5,000 GP armor enhancement
a trait tax
rogues lose less from a fighter dip than a monk.
but both suck pretty bad
i also mentioned
a feat
an armor enhancement
and a trait tax, all of which could do it too
Actually, you don't treat mithral armor as 1 category lighter unless you're proficient with it. So Rogues can't use Mithral breastplate.
That means it's a feat and a 5000gp armor "enhancement".
I don't know what trait you're refering to, though.
Elven Chainmail on the other hand....
Elven Chainmail on the other hand....
Is chainmail? And gives a -2 ACP? Vs. a 0 ACP mithral breastplate if you have armor expert? I don't get what your getting atm.
Did anyone notice the op combat example for lvl 6 involved 900 gp worth of poison?
Actually, you don't treat mithral armor as 1 category lighter unless you're proficient with it. So Rogues can't use Mithral breastplate.
That means it's a feat and a 5000gp armor "enhancement".
I don't know what trait you're refering to, though.
it's merely a 5,000 GP armor enhancement
or the armor expert trait
you don't need proficiency to treat it as a step lighter, only to not get the armor check penalty to attack rolls
I think everybody skipped past the "laughably expensive" problem to focus on the "blatantly impossible" stuff.
You have a point there, its just ive never seen a pc try to give monsters leprocy before :p
you don't need proficiency to treat it as a step lighter, only to not get the armor check penalty to attack rolls
Ah, indeed. My mistake.
*shrugs* I think if you can survive to level 10 with a pure Ninja that you'll actually have something. Course, I wouldn't want to suffer through 10 levels for the payoff.
I don't like the Ninja too, but only because of one skill:
Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.
Have a sorc/ninja arcane trickster in my group and normally he stays invisible the whole fight, firing sneaked touch spells and re-vanish.
One use per Ki point. How much Ki do you think he gets? He'd blow his wa...um, Ki pool in one or two fights if he did that.
I don't like the Ninja too, but only because of one skill:
Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.Have a sorc/ninja arcane trickster in my group and normally he stays invisible the whole fight, firing sneaked touch spells and re-vanish
Considering his most likely terrible BAB, and that he just delayed his spellcasting, bloodline, sneak attack and ki progression, I don't think he is that powerful. Doesn't he ever run out of Ki?