Dwarven battle cleric A bit of everything

[Undone]

I love clerics. I've spent most of my DnD games as a dwarven cleric but when pathfinder rolled around both of these were nerfed down pretty hard. Dwarves are now mostly worse than humans since they don't gain a feat and clerics lost a lot of their splat power, while domains hit the tank in terms of uselessness compared to the 3.5 domains (A feat + ability compared to 2 abilities) with a few small exceptions such as the travel domain, but I still like clerics.

I've tried to rebuild this AC based tough as nails character but without HAProf it's hard to see it working. Here is what I've got so far. I want to be using sword and board (Using weapon chord to allow casting).

Spoiler:

Cleric of Iomedae

Dwarven Battle Cleric

One of two stat blocks.
STR: 16/16
DEX: 12/12
CON: 14/16
INT: 10/12
WIS: 18/16
CHA: 5/5

Domains
Glory (Heroism)
Good

Traits
Glory of old
Tunnel fighter

Feats
1:
3: Power attack
5: Sacred summons
7:
9:
11: Summon good monster

I've considered HAP for full plate to give me AC ~22 at level 2-3 or so.

NOTE: This is for PFS so I start at level 1 and level up slowly.

[Skull]

I have no idea which feat dwarves lost?
Humans have always gained a bonus feat.
I like the new domains to the point that ive made some clerics.
Dwarves now gain +2 wisdom which is the cleric casting stat

I have a PFS cleric who fights on the front line. He's a dwarf and hammers for Torag.
He doesnt hit as hard without buffs, but he manages to get the job done.

He is now lvl4 and i have enjoyed playing him :)

lvl1 stats were:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12(14 with racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 13(15 with racial)
Cha: 14(12 with racial)

Feats were toughness(1) and dodge(3)

I have sometimes wondered if paladin wouldnt have been a better option for this character, but I still like him.

[Undone]

Skull wrote:

I have no idea which feat dwarves lost?

Humans have always gained a bonus feat.
I like the new domains to the point that ive made some clerics.
Dwarves now gain +2 wisdom which is the cleric casting stat

I have a PFS cleric who fights on the front line. He's a dwarf and hammers for Torag.
He doesnt hit as hard without buffs, but he manages to get the job done.

He is now lvl4 and i have enjoyed playing him :)

lvl1 stats were:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12(14 with racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 13(15 with racial)
Cha: 14(12 with racial)

Feats were toughness(1) and dodge(3)

I have sometimes wondered if paladin wouldnt have been a better option for this character, but I still like him.

Dwarves lost EWP as a bonus feat and now must wield inferior deity weapons.

Clerics lost HAP.
The +2 wisdom helps but a feat is usually just better unless you start with a 20.
As for those stats you could accomplish just better than that by dropping int to 7 and bumping con to 14 putting the favored class in skill instead of HP.

[GM Hands of Fate]

Undone wrote:

Dwarves lost EWP as a bonus feat and now must wield inferior deity weapons.

You mean they aren't proficient in 'dwarven' exotic weapons? read the Dwarf again.

CRB wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

That gives them the Dwarven Boulder Helm, Dwarven Maulaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Double Axe, Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, Dwarven Longaxe, Dwarven Longhammer, Dwarven Urgrosh.

Ah wait...my bad....makes them Martial weapons.

Dip into fighter?

[Undone]

GM Hands of Fate wrote:

Undone wrote:

Dwarves lost EWP as a bonus feat and now must wield inferior deity weapons.

You mean they aren't proficient in 'dwarven' exotic weapons? read the Dwarf again.

CRB wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

That gives them the Dwarven Boulder Helm, Dwarven Maulaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Double Axe, Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, Dwarven Longaxe, Dwarven Longhammer, Dwarven Urgrosh.

Ah wait...my bad....makes them Martial weapons.

Dip into fighter?

Losing a level of casting would be worse than having a race which gave you absolutely nothing and had -4 con.

[Claxon]

What I'm hearing are a lot of complaints about how the cleric isn't as strong as he once was. This was intentional. People didn't like CodZilla.

You can spend feats to get martial or heavy armor proficiency. If you use a a sword and shield and take the Shield Bash/Shield Master Feats even in medium armor you'll be doing alright for AC by the time you add in natural armor, dex increases(and mithral medium armor if necessary), shield and armor enhancements. With Iomedae as your god you can use a longsword which is a perfectly fine weapon. Sure it's not the best one handed weapon, but you could do worse.

[Redblade8]

GM Hands of Fate wrote:

Undone wrote:

Dwarves lost EWP as a bonus feat and now must wield inferior deity weapons.

You mean they aren't proficient in 'dwarven' exotic weapons? read the Dwarf again.

CRB wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

That gives them the Dwarven Boulder Helm, Dwarven Maulaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Double Axe, Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, Dwarven Longaxe, Dwarven Longhammer, Dwarven Urgrosh.

Ah wait...my bad....makes them Martial weapons.

Dip into fighter?

Take another-another look at that, and I'm seeing that clerics would still get three different martial weapons to choose from for free. Don't know if they're the top line cut of meat,, but still beats simple weapons, right?

Red

[Thomas, the Tiefling Hero!]

Good choice on the Glory(Heroism) domain; I've been really satisfied with it.

Being a melee cleric is tough without a racial bonus to STR, but what you're buying is where I started post-racial, so you should be okay.

If you're going sword-and-board, I would reconsider Power Attack. Fighting one-handed, you get -1 to hit and +2 damage. Turns out, the math of missing more but dealing more damage means that the 1:2 ratio is pretty much a wash (technically a fractional increase in damage; pretty minimal, though). Your damage will just be in clumps instead of being consistent. Of course, I could see that potentially feeling better than dealing smaller chunks more often, so it's still totally up to you. :)

For your casting, did you want to focus on buffs, debuffs, healing, or...? Keep in mind when selecting your stats that the fewer save-based offensive spells you use, the less important it is to have a high WIS. When I'm charging into battle with a sword in my hand and heroism and divine favor running, it doesn't matter whether my WIS is 24 or 13, you know? Lots of folks I've talked to fall into the trap of "My casting stat should ALWAYS be my highest", but that's just not true; you've got to pick the stats that best fit YOUR particular character. The relative importance of your casting stat is more variable for a cleric than for probably any other casting class in the game (or close to it).

That's all that comes to mind, but if you like, feel free to click my name to see some of my stats, as I too am a melee-oriented cleric of Iomedae. :)

[calagnar]

This is for PFSP. So I'm going to make suggestion based on scenario play. There are a few books this will require.
Dwarves of Golarion, Ultimate Combat, Inner See Magic, Advanced Players Guide.

Using your base for the cleric
Cleric of Iomedae
Dwarven Cleric(Mendevian Priest)
stat block
STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 16
CHA: 6
Skills : 3 per level
Domain
Glory (Heroism)
Traits
Glory of old
Reactionary
Feats
1: Weapon proficiency Martial Dwarven Waraxe
7: Furious Focus
9: Weapon Focus Dwarven Waraxe

What I would do to make a Dwarven War Priest.
Worships of Angradd the fire forged
Dwarf Cleric (Divine Strategist)
Stat Block
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 5
Skills : 3 per level
Domain
War (Tactics)
Traits
Glory of Old
Reactionary
Feats
1: Heavy Armor Proficiency
3: Power Attack
5: Furious Focus
7: Improved Initiative
9: Weapon Focus Great Axe
11: Improved Critical Great Axe

[Undone]

Quote:

What I'm hearing are a lot of complaints about how the cleric isn't as strong as he once was. This was intentional. People didn't like CodZilla.

I'm aware. I don't want CODZILLA I just wanted a tanky cleric. They took away a huge amount of potency for that build (1d8 vs 1d10, -3 AC or -1 feat exct, exct). It's just a complete tune down of the tanky cleric, and no I'm not willing to give up casting for AC. I'd rather be flat naked and flying with DR 10. I'd like to be tanky with full casting. Losing 1 damage/swing stinks but it's not the end of the world. Losing 3 AC IS the end of the build. Fortunately I found the M Priest archetype in inner sea magic which gives you back HAP.

Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:

Good choice on the Glory(Heroism) domain; I've been really satisfied with it.

Being a melee cleric is tough without a racial bonus to STR, but what you're buying is where I started post-racial, so you should be okay.

If you're going sword-and-board, I would reconsider Power Attack. Fighting one-handed, you get -1 to hit and +2 damage. Turns out, the math of missing more but dealing more damage means that the 1:2 ratio is pretty much a wash (technically a fractional increase in damage; pretty minimal, though). Your damage will just be in clumps instead of being consistent. Of course, I could see that potentially feeling better than dealing smaller chunks more often, so it's still totally up to you. :)

For your casting, did you want to focus on buffs, debuffs, healing, or...? Keep in mind when selecting your stats that the fewer save-based offensive spells you use, the less important it is to have a high WIS. When I'm charging into battle with a sword in my hand and heroism and divine favor running, it doesn't matter whether my WIS is 24 or 13, you know? Lots of folks I've talked to fall into the trap of "My casting stat should ALWAYS be my highest", but that's just not true; you've got to pick the stats that best fit YOUR particular character. The relative importance of your casting stat is more variable for a cleric than for probably any other casting class in the game (or close to it).

That's all that comes to mind, but if you like, feel free to click my name to see some of my stats, as I too am a melee-oriented cleric of Iomedae. :)

You make a good point! But let me show you a sample level 7 spell list that I'd likely prepare. (assumes at least +4 wis by level 7)

Spoiler:

Save's denoted with (S)
1: D: Shield of faith, Protection from evil, 2 Divine favor, Hide from undead (S), Comprehend languages
2: D: Bless weapon, 2 Burst of radiance (S), Resist energy, Delay poison
3: D: Heroism, Circle of protection against evil, Dispel magic, Summon monster 3
4: D: Holy Smite (S), Summon monster 4, Freedom of movement

So as you can see there are not many spells that use saves but you have to note the following two things

1) You need 22 wisdom by level 11 for a bonus level 6 spell. This requires a +6 wisdom band or a +4 and a starting 18 or a +4 2 level bumps and +4 band. Given that these are non optional (as a level 6 spell trumps +1 to hit and damage by an immeasurable amount.)
2) I can't drop holy smite. It's a very powerful AOE spell as is burst of radiance which is frankly insanely powerful on par with old school glitterdust. The loss of "Mass invisibility while in a crypt" as a first level spell just makes me sad as hide from undead is awesome when you can coat the entire party in "No save, mindless undead don't see me, the rest get a save or OMG SUMMONED MONSTERS"

To replace the above (Excluding holy smite) I'd take a third divine favor, and replace burst of radiance with a spiritual weapon and a silence (On our archers first drawn arrow) or a lesser restoration.

So in any event I must have 22 str by level 11. A +6 wisdom item is out of the question if I'm funding my AC with the 15-20k I'll need to. As such the level bumps have to be in wisdom.

As to power attack MATH!

Spoiler:

Level 5
+1 weapon
+3 BAB
+2 Heroism
+3 Str
-1 PA
=+8/+10(Charge/flank) vs AC 18-20.

Without PA over 20 rolls using longsword (Pretend auto crit bless weapon because I'm lazy)
1-8 miss
9-18 hit for 1d8+6(7 divine favor/8 Underground)=115.5
19-20 hit for 2d8+12(14/16)= 42
157.5 damage

Power attacking over 20 rolls using longsword
1-9 miss
10-18 hit for 1d8+8(9/10)=112.5
19-20 hit for 2d8+16(9/10)=50

Total damage=162.5

So you're right it's more or less a wash. HOWEVER once you start factoring in divine favor (Especially at +2) and make power attack +4 damage at level 6 it's the best feat I can possibly have.

So yes I can elect not to take it. That is an option but it feels unnecessary to skip it unless there is a good reason for me to do it.

[Ill_Made_Knight]

Isn't it tough going sword and board since you won't be able to cast without dropping your weapons?

[Skull]

Ill_Made_Knight wrote:

Isn't it tough going sword and board since you won't be able to cast without dropping your weapons?

With a light shield, you can put your weapon in your shield hand while casting a spell and switch it back. (As far as I can remember).

[Wally the Wizard]

Evangelist cleric + 1 level dip in fighter.

inspire courage is as good or better than any spell you lose with that one level. The fact you'll be able to use it as a move/swift action later on is even better.

Fighter gives you heavy armor, martial weapons and a bonus combat feat.

You're less of a healer but that's okay. Grab some scrolls for emergencies and keep slots open to fill with healing spells as needed.

Since you've got a 20 ft movement speed grab a reach weapon you get some good options as a dwarf. Long hammer's my choice but dorn derger could be nice too if you wan more versatility.

Best part about this build? You can remake yourself in to whatever you need to be week to week which is great for a PFS build. Sit down at the table and there's no bf control? no problem you take a bunch of control spells and use your reach to keep enemies off the squishies. next week there's no melee? You self buff and kick ass. Third week it's all martials? support caster extraordinaire. After that intrigue heavy, combat light? oh look you have some great out of combat spells as spontaneous casts.

[Silver Surfer]

I would consider taking Steel Soul as a feat to help you really wade in against opposing spellcasters

[Undone]

Ill_Made_Knight wrote:

Isn't it tough going sword and board since you won't be able to cast without dropping your weapons?

Weapon chord

Sequence: Drop longsword (Free), move (Move), cast (Standard), snap back sword (Swift)

Wear holy symbol around neck.

Quote:

Evangelist cleric + 1 level dip in fighter.

inspire courage is as good or better than any spell you lose with that one level. The fact you'll be able to use it as a move/swift action later on is even better.

No, it's not. Losing a casting level is unacceptable

Quote:

Fighter gives you heavy armor, martial weapons and a bonus combat feat.

The mendevian priest and forgemaster archetypes also give HAP for PFS. This isn't better than another level of cleric.

Quote:

You're less of a healer but that's okay. Grab some scrolls for emergencies and keep slots open to fill with healing spells as needed.

Healing is done via free infinite happy sticks.

Quote:

Since you've got a 20 ft movement speed grab a reach weapon you get some good options as a dwarf. Long hammer's my choice but dorn derger could be nice too if you wan more versatility.

I'm not taking a level dip. If I was going to level dip it'd be wizard and mystic theruge and its STILL worse than straight cleric.

Quote:

Best part about this build? You can remake yourself in to whatever you need to be week to week which is great for a PFS build. Sit down at the table and there's no bf control? no problem you take a bunch of control spells and use your reach to keep enemies off the squishies. next week there's no melee? You self buff and kick ass. Third week it's all martials? support caster extraordinaire. After that intrigue heavy, combat light? oh look you have some great out of combat spells as spontaneous casts.

You can do that easier in PFS if you don't have the fighter level as you'll have more spells. Losing 6th level magic is unacceptable.

[Torger Miltenberger]

My only suggestion is to stop comparing a 3.5 Dwarven Cleric to a Pathfinder Dwarven Cleric. Try to think of them as two slightly similar but ultimately distinct things and your process might go a lot better.

If I were trying to make a tanky cleric in pathfinder I'd suck it up and take Heavy Armor Proficiency as my level one feat. With those stats it's basically +3 AC for the cost of one feat.

Well it is as soon as you can afford full plate anyway.

- Torger