Help needed for building PFS legal character.


Advice

Sovereign Court

Hello,

Just had a quick question since no one was suggesting drow as an option for a ninja/monk that I'm thinking of creating. I'd be steering away from CE and more towards true neutral as a drow if possible. Also wondering if the Drow feats and magic items and such are allowed in PFS on the Drow page http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/drow.htm l#_drow

Liberty's Edge

Kysune: No Drow allowed in Pathfinder Society.

Races allowed: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half Orc, Aasimar, Half Elf, Tieflings, Tengu, Gnome, Halfling

Thats it.

Sovereign Court

That, indeed, is disappointing. :(

Thanks for your reply.

Sczarni

Due to the lore of Golarion and the nature of the Drow that live within it, they are highly unlikely to be allowed as a playable race in the scope of Organized Play as anything short of a very rare, one-time deal, special event, sort of boon at a major convention.

However, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen.

That said, what was it that drew you to the Drow in the first place as a character choice? Perhaps there's a way to modify your idea to fit a legal race choice so that you can still make your character (albeit a bit different than originally conceived) in such a way that you'll still get the flavor you want out of it.

EDIT: Also, I might suggest changing the title of the thread if you're still able to, to something along the lines of "Help needed for building PFS legal character". The PFS boards can get pretty unpleasant when the topic of oddball races pop up with the differences of opinion held by the people that frequent them.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

James Jacobs wrote a forward for the Second Darkness Adventure path. This may explain why there are no Drow PCs

:
“Rhymes with Bow
There’s more going on in Second Darkness than falling stars, and when we at Paizo were initially casting about for ideas for the plot for our third Adventure Path, the skies above were the furthest things from our minds. We were looking downward, into the depths of our still-developing world’s crust, to the endless maze of caves and tunnels below. Other game worlds have their own names for this mysterious and dangerous realm, but in Golarion, it’s known as the Darklands. Why would we seek out villains down there? To anyone who’s played RPGs for any real length of time, the answer’s pretty obvious.

Because that’s where the drow live.

There are certain monsters that can be considered “mainstream” these days—creatures that even non- gamers seem immediately to recognize on sight. Dragons fall into that category for sure, as do vampires and goblins and trolls and zombies. Relatively few monsters who were “born” in the game have made this jump. Ask the average man on the street if he prefers ankhegs over bulettes, and you’re likely just to get a weird look.The drow are different, though. Sure, they have roots in Scottish folklore, but their incarnation as evil underground- dwelling elves was first popularized by Gary Gygax back in the early days of the game, in the classic adventure G3: Hall of the Fire Giant King. The series of adventures that followed (eventually compiled as Queen of the Spiders) became classic adventures, and then with R. A. Salvatore’s first novel, The Crystal Shard, this popularity exploded, primarily due to one highly popular dual-scimitar-wielding hero. Back when Paizo was publishing Dragon and Dungeon, we saw that whenever we put a drow on the cover, that issue became one of the best selling issues of the year (which was why I chose a drow for the first Dungeon cover I ordered art for).
Of course, with such sudden popularity came the to-be- expected backlash, and today you can hardly mention drow in the presence of gamers without sparking an argument. Some players love playing drow characters, while other players won’t play in a game that allows drow PCs. Some GMs love the concept of “renegade” drow who have turned against their sinful ways to become champions of good, while others gag and gnash teeth over the very concept. Even the name riles up gamers—there are at least two ways to pronounce the word, and I wouldn’t put it past someone to come up with a third and a fourth. No matter how vocal people get about drow, the fact remains that everyone knows about them and everyone talks about them.
So they seemed like a perfect choice for the villains of Pathfinder’s third Adventure Path. For those of you worried that the next several volumes are going to descend into angst-ridden misunderstood dark-elf heroes, let me repeat myself.

The drow are villains.

During the course of Second Darkness, you’ll meet more drow NPCs than any other race, and I can pretty much guarantee you that they’re all going to be bad guys. The drow of Golarion are not to be trusted. They worship demons. They’re slavers and sadists. They perform hideous experiments on innocent victims. The drow are back to being evil, in other words.
As a result, you should encourage your players NOT to play drow characters in this campaign. I fully understand the attraction of playing a drow. Hell, two of my own favorite characters that I’ve played are drow (one of them even ended up in the Shackled City Adventure Path!). Playing a misunderstood hero who’s forced to live with the fact that her heritage brands her a villain can be quite fun and rewarding—but Second Darkness isn’t the place for drow PCs. If a player wants to play a misunderstood hero here, try to talk them into playing a half-orc. Or a goblin. Or a half-fiend. Or even one of the other evil Darklands- dwelling races, like a duergar or a troglodyte.
Drow can be PCs in all the Adventure Paths after this one. For now, though, give them a chance to be the bad guys again.”


James Jacobs, Page 5 A Shadow in the Sky, A Second Darkness Adventure Path.

Perhaps this may explain the no Drow rule.

I hope this helps.

Liberty's Edge

People always want what they cant have.

Sovereign Court

Thanks Jack and Myles,

I've been trying to gather information from various people on making a shuriken throwing (or dagger/dart throwing) character. Some people have suggested taking Monk and some have suggested Ninja (also others suggesting a combination of the two like 10ninja/2monk or vice versa). Then I've had people suggesting Monk of the Empty Hand with Quinggong class and others saying a Martial Artist would deal more damage.

So far I'm pretty confused, I own the Core Rulebook but I'm not opposed to buying additional pdf content to build a weapon throwing character. I want to bounce around and deal damage to targets without getting locked into combat.

Essentially I want to jump on buildings, objects, walls, and fling damage onto people/monsters by either sustained damage or spike (sneak attack) damage.

Since it's PFS I'm going to cap out at lvl 12 and I'd like to be useful throughout also. Being small would be fine as some of the build paths would give more movement speed...but I'd be taking a hit on the small damage of shurikens/daggers/darts. (I believe I can only flurry with shurikens also, not sure if I can flurry with improvised weapons of darts/daggers as MotEH though.)

Anyways, I'm pretty new and this is my first PFS character I'd like to create but I feel somewhat overwhelmed with trying to make him reasonable (obviously this isn't going to be an Own-All build, but I'd like to try and make this character as fun as possible and have him to where he's not worthless in games). Thanks!!!

Sczarni

Matthew Pittard wrote:
People always want what they cant have.

Curses! I really wanted a character that worked well in a team and was fun to RP with a bunch of nerdy gamers!

... Oh. Wait.

I already have seven of those... :D

In all seriousness, though, I believe it's possible for everyone to find a character that they can enjoy playing and have a good time with everyone, even if it's not their number-one-top-pick-bestest-best-favoritest-race/class/whatever-combo character in the world.

Generally speaking, those are best saved for homegames where you can do everything you could do with the approval and support of your group and GM.

Sczarni

Holy archetypes, Batman!

First and foremost, let me just say welcome! Welcome to PFS Organized Play!

Before you start getting into the specifics of building a character, might I recommend familiarizing yourself with the official Guide to Organized Play. Please note that this particular document will be updating in the next couple of weeks, so keep an eye out for when that happens as only the newest and most recent version of the guide is correct and legal.

After that, when you're reading through your source material trying to take inspiration and ideas from things you like, make sure to check the Additional Resources page and look up the particular entry for the product that you're looking at the material from. That will let you know whether or not what you're wanting is currently legal in PFS Organized Play.

My first recommendation to anyone that's new to PFSOP is to stick with a build you fully understand and think you're going to have fun with. If that means making something simple at first to get a feel for how Organized Play works, then you can save a more complex concept character for the next one. If that means cracking out your concept character right away, make sure you're clear on how the class and rules work before showing up to your first table.

I highly recommend talking with your local game coordinator and GM's as I'm sure they can all give you a good idea of how things tend to run in your area.

As for what I would recommend (based off your previous posts), I'm thinking a straight classed Ninja would be the safest, simplest, and most solid bet. Multiclassing can make some of the weirdest concepts fly beautifully, or it can leave you wondering why your character is so ineffective compared to the non-multiclassed ones around. It all depends on your play style and how number crunchy you want to get.

Sovereign Court

I agree, maybe going Ninja first would be easier. I've played campaigns of d&d 3.5 but only played 2 sessions of Pathfinder that I'll be transferring to my new character (so after next session I should hit level 2). What are your thoughts on going straight ninja 12 levels or going prestige to Shadowdancer? (I'm thinking maybe Shadowdancer after level 10 ninja? And I assume I can play my character till he hits level 13 then he's retired?)

I'll go ahead and start reading through the two guide sections you posted to get up-to-date. Thanks :)

Sczarni

Kysune wrote:
I'll go ahead and start reading through the two guide sections you posted to get up-to-date. Thanks :)

I'm always happy to help when someone's willing to accept the offer. Especially when they're open-minded and willing to adapt. :)

Kysune wrote:
I agree, maybe going Ninja first would be easier. I've played campaigns of d&d 3.5 but only played 2 sessions of Pathfinder that I'll be transferring to my new character (so after next session I should hit level 2).

I pretty well guessed as much considering the vast majority of the folks that ask about playing Drow (specifically) are fans of the various D&D novels and campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms. First and foremost, Drow in Golarion are not the same Drow you know and love from the Forgotten Realms. They are irrevocably evil in the Golarion setting as it's written, and while some exceptions may apply, those are never likely to be seen within the scope of Organized Play.

However, don't let that get you down. There are plenty of awesome alternative options at your disposal!

Kysune wrote:
What are your thoughts on going straight ninja 12 levels or going prestige to Shadowdancer? (I'm thinking maybe Shadowdancer after level 10 ninja? And I assume I can play my character till he hits level 13 then he's retired?)

There are pros and cons to both the straight-classed Ninja, and the Ninja/Shadowdancer routine. I have recommendations on both, though what I delve into will depend entirely on what you want to get out of your character.

Ninja will give you the ability to do all the crazy battlefield maneuvering you had mentioned wanting to do through clever use of class features, feats, equipment, and skills, while giving you some nifty abilities on the side.

Shadowdancer, while undeniably cool (I helped my mother build a Ninja/Shadowdancer that's a real combat beast), is generally better suited to a build for a melee character. Mind you, I'm sure there are some killer ranged builds out there for them, but I have yet to fully explore them.

There's also the question of race. Were you specifically wanting some oddball flavor that sits outside the usual core races from the CRB, or are those races just fine provided they fit what you want to actually do?

Sczarni

Kysune wrote:
And I assume I can play my character till he hits level 13 then he's retired?

Woops, missed addressing that in the last post.

As soon as your character hits 12th level (33xp), they reach the status of "Seeker" and are considered to be retired. However, there are still ways to play that character beyond that point, though they require special coordination between you and other high level players in your area (or at conventions and the like) to be able to play. Most routine PFS days at your FLGS aren't going to include much, if any, in the way of offerings for 12+ characters as that is the minority of the level range in Organized Play.

Don't despair, however! In the last two months, I've been able to play two of my retired characters multiple times with a local group of lunatics... err... I mean my friends... In modules and other fun things on weekends outside the normal gaming routine. It's just not something you should expect to be a regular thing.

Sovereign Court

Well I want a race that's appealing to look at...I don't like dwarves and tengus don't seem up my alley. I'd play a cat/fox type of character, I'd play anything besides dwarf from the Core book (mainly because the artwork for gnome/hobbit/orc is done exceptionally well and looks a ton better than d&d 3.5 artwork where they were ugly as crap or fat and pudgey.)

I wouldn't mind an oddball which I'd assume would be halfling or gnome possibly with their speed reduction. But in the past I've typically played Elf/Half-Elf/Human.

As for the buildpath, I'd like to stay away from melee if possible and use shurikens, other thrown weapons, or ranged 10ft weapons that I could get AoO's off and/or trip people to KEEP them AWAY from me.

I'm not sure how often a build like this is made because typically in the past I've just seen straight up melee characters or ranged mages and I've mainly just played bards, druids, or sorcerers in the past myself.

Sczarni

First, let's take a look at races.

While Catfolk are not currently legal (though they seem to be in the running for possible upcoming race boons along with Ratfolk), Kitsune are should you get a race boon for one. If you're familiar with Japanese legends, they're the shape-shifting fox people that have been popularized in America (and beyond) by various popular Anime and Manga series.

Now, they're not available to everyone (a point of much contention on the boards, I assure you), so the only way you'll be able to play one is to get your hands on a boon. This means attending a convention, special event with prize support, or asking (NICELY!) around the boards or checking with people in your area to see if they have an extra they might be willing to donate to a new player. However, don't be too disappointed if nobody wants to just fork one over as they are a bit of a special prize sort of thing.

You'll need to be tactful about how you go about asking as some folks get pretty bent out of shape over these things on the boards if they think you're begging and whining about not getting your way. Also, none of the above courses of action guarantee you actually getting that boon. I've only gotten one race boon that wasn't tied to me GMing a special event or playing in a special (high level) event in two years of attending cons.

There are, however, other options.

One that I think would fit your character concept and aesthetic appeal is the Rakshasa-blooded Tiefling. It's a variation on the Tiefling base race that's specifically tied to having the influence of a Rakshasa in their bloodline. They're presented in the Player Companion: Blood of Fiends, though other legal Tiefling options are also listed in the Advanced Race Guide. Should you decide to play as one, you'll need to have whichever product(s) you're using material out of in a physical copy, or a digital copy watermarked with your name (or that of an immediate member of your family/household) when you play that character so that you and your GM can easily reference the material if they have any questions.

The Rakshasa heritage gives you +2 Dex/+2 Cha/-2 Wis, which lines up rather well with the Ninja class as it'll improve your ability to hit (assuming ranged or weapon finesse) and your ki pool (Cha based for Ninja). They also have an animal-influenced flair that you can choose your favorite flavor of (Cat-like, Fox-like, Squirrel-like, Snake-like, and so on), though only the half-human variety of Tiefling (or Aasimar) are allowed in PFSOP. That means you can't have a Tiefling descended of Gnome parents or Dwarf parents. That is clarified in the Additional Resources entry for the material.

You could also go with an Aasimar, which is the polar opposite (heritage-wise) of Tieflings. And, just like Tieflings, Aasimar have their own lovely splat book (Player Companion: Blood of Angels), which similarly outlines variant heritages with different stat bonuses/spell-like abilities/skill bonuses, etc. Also, they obviously have material in the ARG.

Sovereign Court

I appreciate both choices. I find it ironic that Rakshasa bloodlined Tieflings are allowed in PFSOP when I'd expect them to be as evil or more than a Drow (Rakshasa from what all I've know have always been evil creatures). But I don't want to make that a focal point.

I think I'd be more interested in staying with a Core race as I'm not too sold on playing Aasimar or Tiefling and not sure I'd want to buy a book that's pretty much just on them and not much else. I've played a Tiefling in the past but it was a difficult and interesting campaign with a Paladin in the party.

So I'd be best off going 12 levels of Ninja then? (Assuming a Shadowdancer is mainly melee?) I guess it's not really 12 levels of ninja either then, as only 11 levels are playable and then the character retired.

Sczarni

Kysune wrote:

I appreciate both choices. I find it ironic that Rakshasa bloodlined Tieflings are allowed in PFSOP when I'd expect them to be as evil or more than a Drow (Rakshasa from what all I've know have always been evil creatures). But I don't want to make that a focal point.

I think I'd be more interested in staying with a Core race as I'm not too sold on playing Aasimar or Tiefling and not sure I'd want to buy a book that's pretty much just on them and not much else. I've played a Tiefling in the past but it was a difficult and interesting campaign with a Paladin in the party.

The difference between Rakshasa-blooded Tieflings and Drow are that Drow exist within their own society, where the Tieflings are outcast from both their fiendish relatives and (generally speaking) their Human relatives. And, while their blood is tainted by the corruption of their fiendish ancestors, they aren't all raised in a specific society, so there's a lot more variation from Tiefling to Tiefling. No two are necessarily going to be the same. They can be a lot of fun if you've got a concept you like (I have one Tiefling character and he's a blast to play), but I do very much understand wanting to steer clear of them for now.

There's also absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play the core races. I, personally, enjoy the heck out of the core options.

I actually think that a build off of a Half-Elf could be extremely functional for your desired character, putting that racial feat Skill Focus to good use by picking Stealth as your skill for it. Then you could start aiming toward feats like Hellcat Stealth (out of Cheliax, Empire of Devils) that lets you stealth while in normal or bright light, even while observed.

Quote:
So I'd be best off going 12 levels of Ninja then? (Assuming a Shadowdancer is mainly melee?)

Well, that depends. I think Shadowdancer has it's pros (Hide in Plain Sight while in/near shadows, and the Summon Shadow ability can utterly break encounters in some cases), and cons (no Sneak Attack progression, requires several feats to qualify for).

If you don't want to have to focus a lot of effort on increasing your ki pool points to use Vanishing Trick every round or two of combat, having the options of being able to stealth to get your Sneak Attacks off is going to be invaluable. Especially if you're intending to focus most of your feats on things like Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and working your way toward Snap Shot. Ninja don't get a lot of feats, so I think it's a good idea to focus on what is really core to your character concept.

Quote:
I guess it's not really 12 levels of ninja either then, as only 11 levels are playable and then the character retired.

Don't be discouraged by the concept of a character hitting retirement. You'll still be able to play them in special events at conventions and in coordinated games outside the usual game days for PFS. You just likely won't get to play such characters as often as the ones pre-retirement.

Silver Crusade

All characters except the monk that has a class feature Flurry of blows, only throw one weapon, or with two weapon 2 with -4/-4 to the attack because are the same size..
If you want throw 2 without many penalties you need a Monk.

Sczarni

Haco wrote:

All characters except the monk that has a class feature Flurry of blows, only throw one weapon, or with two weapon 2 with -4/-4 to the attack because are the same size..

If you want throw 2 without many penalties you need a Monk.

A character can make a full attack with thrown weapons provided they can draw them as a free action. Specifically shuriken are treated as Ammunition in regards to how they're drawn and used (much like arrows), allowing a character to make a full attack with them at no more penalty than an archer firing arrows from a bow. There's a specific Ninja Trick that also allows a Ninja to burn a ki point to let them throw a couple extras.

Flurry of Stars (Ex) wrote:
A ninja with this ability can expend 1 ki point from her ki pool as a swift action before she makes a full-attack attack with shuriken. During that attack, she can throw two additional shuriken at her highest attack bonus, but all of her shuriken attacks are made at a –2 penalty, including the two extra attacks.

As a side note, I'm about to pass out, so I'll return to this thread when I have some time free tomorrow. Ciao, all!

Sovereign Court

Thanks,

That makes sense about the Tieflings.

I just reviewed Shadowdancer and I don't think it's what I want to incorporate into my character.

I'm still thinking I might need to go 4 levels of monk and then rest ninja...it looks like ninja's saves are pretty low and I feel like Cha would be a waste as I could use Wis from monk and boost my will saves along with AC (as long as I don't wear armor....now that's something i'm not sure I should do, maybe this is workable with some other stuff?....)

I wonder if maneuver training would hinder me since it makes me use my monk levels for cmb?

At 4th level monk i'd get 2 bonus feats (deflect arrow and combat reflexes (or dodge?) i think would be best?), I would be counted as armed with a weapon if someone got near me while I have no melee weapon out, stunning fist, +10movement, FoB, Slowfall 20ft, & +4 to all saves. This is one reason why I've been wanting to multiclass, it seems like monk gives a lot, and I've heard of people saying a ninja that fails his will save can be a really bad thing. (the game i was at last saturday had 2 people confused, 1 person wis drained, another knocked out and it looked pretty rough for that fight. They barely survived.)

Maybe picking up all those things wouldn't be what I'd lose going full ninja though...anyone care to weigh their thoughts on that?


Kysune, I have to say you're putting a lot more thought into your character than most of the guys that I play with regularly (what they do amounts to: oh its time to level? I pick this, cause it looks cool). That being said planning isn't a bad thing, but don't drive yourself crazy with it. Pathfinder has a lot of options out there, so use what'll make you have the most fun (without being detrimental to others fun).

~NPEH

Sovereign Court

Yeah that's my only real concern is that my setup will result in hardly hitting and doing hardly any damage. So I wanted to make sure I was taking time to figure out what would work best since being a GREAT shuriken thrower is probably not going to be stealing the spotlight of anyone with a decent/good build.

Silver Crusade

I know Jack of Blades i say that ALL classes except monks hasn't throw many weapons.

Silver Crusade

Kysune,
This may not be of any help, but it may.

A couple of weekends ago, i was making a character for a friend's Ptolus setting game. We were using the Pathfinder rules.

20 point build average hit points. We were starting at 3rd level. After pawing through the core rule book, I decided to challenge myself. Could i make a character I enjoy playing just using the Core Rule book.?

The GM had a list of backgrounds we could choose from or roll for. I rolled and got City Watch.

I hemmed and hawed and eventually settled on a dwarf....For levels he has 1 level of ranger and 2 levels of rogue. I found that because of my ability score distribution, my Dex at 14 was 1 shy of two weapon fighting. My characters Int, at 12 was one shy of Combat Expertese. ( combat expertese and Improved Feint)

I was grumbling a little bit, the GM said since it was point buy i could change around my stats a little bit to qualify for those feats.

I decided to stick with what I had. This made me look elsewhere in the core rule book. I settled on the quick draw feat, and Step up.

My character wields a Dwarven War Axe and he has a number of Throwing hand axes.
He also has a tidy bonus to hit and damage goblinoids and orcs, after combining the Racial Hatred: with Favored enemy.

At 4th level I figure i'll take another level of ranger, pick up two weapon fighting from my combat style Ranger class feature, and at level 4 I'll give my Int that one point bump to get access to combat expertise.

Is he the best build character? probably not. But I am having fun with him.

One of my friends, another player at the table has made an elven "Duelist" fighter who relies on Dex and a Rapier for combat. I think we may work towards the "Desna's" sting combo with my having an Axe and all that.

Him having an elf and me having a dwarf, of course leads to lots of teasing back and forth....but we are having fun.

So Kysune, I guess this is a long winded way of saying, don't worry so much. Give a build a try. Since you have a 1st level character, you can rebuild it to try something else if you like.

Have fun enjoy yourself.

Sovereign Court

I'm creating my character for PFS and seeking advice for a legal PFS character when stating the below. Thanks and looking forward to advice! :)

So I determined I wanted to go straight Ninja to level 12. I have some questions on what is legal (I'm still going through the PFS guides/rulebooks).

Can a Ninja use a regular feat gained at like level 3 and take Extra Rogue Talents feat? Or would a Ninja have to burn a Ninja Trick:Rogue Talent to take a regular rogue talent? I'm assuming I'd have to burn a Ninja Trick:Rogue Talent to get one. I'm looking at Sniper's Eye and Snapshot as feats I'd like to pickup quickly and I'm thinking Lasting Poison would be a good one also. The rest seem pretty mediocre since I'm focusing on staying out of melee and using range.

I'm also thinking of picking up the Advanced Core Classes pdf so I can trade out uncanny dodge and imped uncanny dodge for Skirmisher and Scout's Charge (Which i'm assuming I can charge into range and used a ranged attack to crit?). Is this a good idea?

Can someone please explain a Kusarigama? I'm under the impression that I get AoO's on enemies that come within 10ft of me for 1d6 dmg, that I can melee with it for 1d3 dmg. Also if I use it as a reach weapon can I attack with it multiple times? I take it that retrieving it after hitting with range it would take a minor action to retrieve or do I not retrieve it but never really "throw" it?

I'm thinking of picking up lunge and whatever the feat is that lets me get multiple AoO's each round. To allow for me to get multiple hits for enemies closing in on my team. I believe this would work great if a reach weapon works as I think it does above?

I've been thinking Lasting Poison would work best with a ranged weapon like Rope Dart or Kyoketsu Shoge since if I miss I don't waste the poison. From my understanding I can poison the weapon at the start of the mission, and whenever (time not a factor) I HIT the next two times (including Lasting Poison) with my weapon I will have a chance to poison the target. Is this so?

Anyone have advice on either using a Rope Dart or Kyoketsu Shoge? I don't see much difference as they pretty much seem the same.

Is there any advice feat wise/etc to help make this poisoning plan better? I know Lasting Poison reduces the DC for the poison but having 2 chances to poison seems like a better idea. I figure I can have one of those weapons on me (hardly any weight) and use it when it seems best verse a weakened/debuffed target.

Advice is welcome, I've just dropped a crap ton of questions and I appologize for the big post but I figured it's best to just ask them all and get them out of the way instead of just posting multiple times.

Sovereign Court

*bump*


My roommate plays a monk who uses a kusarigama as their primary weapon: she says she can't find rules for it anywhere, but apparently using it only makes sense if you would do reach attacks with it using the ball end, which deals 1d3 bludgeoning damage, and normal attacks with the sickle end, which deals 1d6 slashing damage.

Sovereign Court

So it effectively allows you to be armed with reach 10ft for AoO's and when they get in 5ft range you're still able to attack and be fine. It stinks that the reach dmg is 1d3 though....I would think you could swing the sickle end out 10ft for reach to dmg someone....

Anyone know anything about the other questions I posted 30mins ago on feats, two ranged weapons to pick from, and poisons?


The thing about swinging the sickle is that it's very hard to do something like swing a sickle at the end of a chain so that it would actually hit the opponent, if not impossible outright, because the blade would have to hit them at a pretty specific angle.

The feat you mentioned that gives you multiple AoOs is called Combat Reflexes. It uses your Dex modifier to determine how many AoOs you get, so you need a high Dex to get the most out of it, which you should have anyway as a Ninja. Sniper's Eye as a rogue talent strikes me as pretty situational.

I have no idea what you mean by "Advanced Core Classes PDF". Do you mean the Advanced Player's Guide? I'm assuming so. I'm not 100% on this one (couldn't find a ruling with some searching) but since the Scout archetype only replaces class features the Ninja also has, I'd say you can make a Ninja with the Scout archetype to get the class features you listed. Again, I'd check around to make sure you can actually take the archetype.

I personally haven't seen anyone use the rope dart or kyoketsu shoge, but looking over them, the rope dart doesn't exactly come off as worse than the regular dart. Granted, the regular dart is borderline useless, so that might not be saying much. Having a retrievable throwing weapon can be very useful in certain situations.

Poisons are generally not considered worth their price, since most of them have rather low DCs. Still, if you want to fiddle with them, go for it. I haven't seen a poisoner in use other than my roommate's ninja/sorcerer, and that character's only gotten a chance to use poison once.

Sovereign Court

Thanks Rei,

Anyone else able to give more insight on the questions I had?

Silver Crusade

Ninjas cannot take rogue archetypes just like samurais cannot take cavalier archetypes.

I am thinking you have to have the class feature Rogue Talent in order to take Extra Rogue Talent. Also check to make sure you can take Ninja Trick: Rogue talent more than once, if ninja tricks work like rogue talents you cannot take a talent more than once unless its specifically called out.

I can't really recommend poison use in PFS, if you look at the available poisons (I can't find the source right now, but the list of legal poisons is called out somewhere, probably in the guide to society play and not additional resources) they are all fairly weak and you have to purchase them at full price because you cannot craft them. Poisons other than those that are legal for use in society are few and far between on chronicle sheets. Just letting you know now so you aren't in for major disappointment later.

Sovereign Court

Is that stated somewhere that Ninjas can't take rogue archetypes? I thought they could as long as they had the same abilities to swap out with the archetype, which Ninjas do. Someone please confirm?

Anyone able to advise which is better: Rope Dart or Kyoketsu Shoge? I don't see much difference between the two except KS has a 20ft reach? While RD can be used to gain a +1 ac if used blockingly and has distracting?

Also anyone ever used a Kusarigama in PFS? I'm curious as to how that works, I take it you declare at the start of your turn which side you're using but essentially you can threaten 10ft distance and if they close in on you then next turn you declare you're using the sickle part and threaten 5ft distances. Is this essentially the only dual 10ft and 5ft weapon?

I know poisons suck in PFS, I'm hoping to use multiple applications on 1 weapon to raise the DC and to use Lasting Poison so I get 2 applications of poison per a poisoned weapon. Keeping the ranged weapon (KS or RD) on me for when things start going bad, if I miss with the weapon I don't lose the poison since I retreive the weapon with a free action and it doesn't go sailing off like an arrow/dart/shuriken etc and doesn't have the 50% chance to break since a KS/RD isn't ammo. Missing with the weapon shouldn't expend an application of the poison either.

Thoughts/tips/advce?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kysune wrote:

Is that stated somewhere that Ninjas can't take rogue archetypes? I thought they could as long as they had the same abilities to swap out with the archetype, which Ninjas do. Someone please confirm?

You're looking at it wrong. You're looking for an exception to the rule which states that classes can only take archetypes of their own class. Ninja are not Rogues, just as Gunslingers are not Fighters, and Smurai are not Cavaliers. (a bit less true in the last case).

The only archetypes a Ninja can take are Ninja archetypes.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for clearing this up LazarX. Anyone able to shed light on the Eastern Weapons or confirm that the poison option is decent?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kysune wrote:
Thanks for clearing this up LazarX. Anyone able to shed light on the Eastern Weapons or confirm that the poison option is decent?

I strongly suggest that you download the Guide to PFS Organised Play. Even if it's going to be updated over the next couple of weeks, the bulk of it will still be true and give you tons of guidelines on what's good and what's not kosher for PFS play. It's a free download in the Pathfinder Society section of this site. Your other bible is the Additional Resources Document.

Silver Crusade

Poisons often have crappy DC and also their effects are too slow to be meaningful to the party. It's just easier usually to reduce everything to 0 hp or below.

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Kysune wrote:

Is that stated somewhere that Ninjas can't take rogue archetypes? I thought they could as long as they had the same abilities to swap out with the archetype, which Ninjas do. Someone please confirm?

You're looking at it wrong. You're looking for an exception to the rule which states that classes can only take archetypes of their own class. Ninja are not Rogues, just as Gunslingers are not Fighters, and Smurai are not Cavaliers. (a bit less true in the last case).

The only archetypes a Ninja can take are Ninja archetypes.

Sorry, but you are, actually, incorrect.

Ninjas are Rogues, and can take any Rogue archetype that they have the abilities to swap out for them.

The same holds true for Samurai and Cavalier archetypes.

You are correct on the actual released version of Gunslinger, as it is no longer a variant of Fighter, but wasd changed into its own, separate class.

The way to twell, actually, is in Ultimate Combat, where it calls out explicitly that Ninjas cannot take levels of Rogue, or vice versa, and the same for Samurai and Cavalier, but not Fighter and Gunslinger.

If you search around (I am at work, and only have a few minutes between calls for this stuff), you should find a post from SKR, IIRC, that verifies that Ninjas can take Rogue archetypes.

On the Extra Rogue Talents feat: I believe that you have to have taken the Ninja trick that allows you to take a Rogue Talent first, so you have a "Rogue Talent" so you can take Extra Rogue Talent. Same as why a Bladebound Magus cannot take Extra Magus Arcana until he hits 6th level, rather than the 3rd level access most Maguses (Magi?) have, since Bloadebound gives up the third level Magus Arcana for the Black Blade.


kinevon wrote:
If you search around (I am at work, and only have a few minutes between calls for this stuff), you should find a post from SKR, IIRC, that verifies that Ninjas can take Rogue archetypes.

Found this post saying it's answered in the FAQ but can't actually find an answer in the FAQ, nor did I find a post on it.

kinevon wrote:
On the Extra Rogue Talents feat: I believe that you have to have taken the Ninja trick that allows you to take a Rogue Talent first, so you have a "Rogue Talent" so you can take Extra Rogue Talent. Same as why a Bladebound Magus cannot take Extra Magus Arcana until he hits 6th level, rather than the 3rd level access most Maguses (Magi?) have, since Bloadebound gives up the third level Magus Arcana for the Black Blade.

Related FAQ link.


kinevon wrote:

If you search around (I am at work, and only have a few minutes between calls for this stuff), you should find a post from SKR, IIRC, that verifies that Ninjas can take Rogue archetypes.

looking around. I just hope I got that link correct. :)

On poisons, the ones found on chronicle sheets usually have a limit. Poisons are on the 'always available' list ONLY if the class offers poison use:

additional resources guide wrote:
Any character with the Poison Use class ability can purchase and use poisons. For now, they are the only classes that have a list of “always available poisons” (those noted below)—no other class may purchase poisons unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or in another legal source. Alchemists, ninja, and poisoner rogues may only purchase the following poisons: black adder venom, bloodroot, giant wasp poison, greenblood oil, large scorpion venom, malyass root paste, Medium spider venom, nitharit, shadow essence, small centipede poison, terinav root.

Their efficacy will depend on the opponent. It is probably less than 50/50, (based on the number of undead, oozes, swarms, in every scenario & the BBEG being slightly higher than the PC average.) though the higher the saves DC the better it will be.

Sovereign Court

My (human) Ninja is level 1 at the moment. Since I'm focusing on a throwing build (shurikens), what are some great suggestions for feats, tricks, and a master trick for lvl 1-11?

Feats I was thinking I should pickup: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Opening Volley, Hammer the Gap (maybe?), Clustered Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot. I may be better off replacing HtG with Distance Thrower or Far Shot to increase my throwing range though.

Tricks I thought I should take: Flurry of Stars, Pressure Points, Vanishing Trick, Shadow Clone, Forgotten Trick

Master Trick I thought I should get: Invisible Blade

I'm in PFS so I can rebuild my current feats atm. So I have 7 feats, 5 tricks, and 1 master trick available to spend. Not sure I missed anything important that I should take, please let me know if I did.

Sovereign Court

*bump* any advice on feats and tricks as a ninja? (ranged shuriken build)

Silver Crusade

Sounds like you have the basic idea covered. I'm not a build expert, but it sounds like vanishing trick would be key, so you can get sneak attacks.

Sovereign Court

Anyone know which of these feats are mandatory for a ranged (shuriken) thrower? I've got 7 feats to spend so trying to fit in the ones that will help the most.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Opening Volley, Hammer the Gap, Clustered Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Distance Thrower, Far Shot.

Grand Lodge

PBS & Precise, assuming you are going to be throwing shuriken most of the time. The -4 for melee on top of the likely -4 for cover makes for hard to hit opponents.

If they apply, both Rapid Shot and Manyshot have benefits. Not sure about Rapid SHot, but fairly sure that Manyshot won't work for a thrown weapon build.

Far Shot or Distance Thrower might come in handy, but, if you wantto use Vanishing Trick or equivalent to get sneak attack damage, you are going to be limited in how far away you can get anyhow.

Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap are nice, but special material shuriken will cover much of what they do.

Extra Ki might be a good choice if you are planning on using Vanishing Trick a lot.


Couple of things. Manyshot only works with bows. Going the Vanishing Trick Invisible Blade route would work, but you wouldn't really turn on until level 10. Until then keep a scroll of greater invisibility handy and give to the Wizard to use on you on your command (Costs 2 PP). Otherwise you only sneak attack on your first attack with flurry of stars. One thing to note is that Two-Weapon Fighting gives you the same number of extra attacks as Rapid Shot while also letting you TWF with melee weapons. I'd probably trade out pressure points for Ki Charge as swarms are the bane of any non-spellcaster and Pressure Points is sort of situational in that it doesn't work on undead or constructs. Your master trick should go into Evasion.

Buy a Ring of Ki Mastery so that Forgotten Trick only costs 1 Ki point to use. You should also note which useful combat feats you qualify for because you can use Forgotten Trick to take Combat Trick and take any Combat Feat you need in your current situation.

Shadow Strike is a good feat, let's you sneak attack a foe that has concealment. I wouldn't take it though, just keep it ready for Forgotten Trick.

Other good feats to take with Forgotten Trick: Combat Trick -
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Agile Maneuvers
Blind-Fight
Weapon Finesse

Sovereign Court

Thanks, I'll remove Manyshot off the list to get. Also the suggestion of the greater invisibility scroll is great. I'll keep that in mind.

I'll grab TWF instead of Rapid Shot. You really think that Ki Charge is worth it? It's only 3d6 5ft burst fire dmg. I'm not familiar with swarms though.

Pressure points would allow me to do roughly 5-6 str or dex drain to a living creature in 1 round with sneak attack though. Which I figured was probably better than 6 bleed dmg per a round that Bleeding Attack would do.

You are right that Pressure Points wouldn't be helpful at all against undead or constructs....and I don't think my sneak attacks would work either so I'd probably be pretty worthless in fights like those.

You said my master trick should be "Evasion"? Is it that useful that I'd want that over having greater invisibility with Invisible Blade? I assume Assassinate wouldn't be a good master trick since it too would be worthless against undead or constructs.

I see that I'd be using Forgotten Trick to grab a combat trick for 1 round per ninja level. I guess those would be good for specific or dire needs since they'd cost 2 ki for FT then 1 ki for the Combat Trick. Seems like I'll be running out of ki pretty fast during a PFS game.

Thanks for the suggestions and please let me know about Ki Charge. It seems pretty useless since I could just Flurry of Stars and hit a creature with 4-7 Bane shurikens that round.

Sovereign Court

Btw, how expensive is it to purchase shurikens with Bane? I'm guessing it's going to be extremely expensive and counter productive just by looking at the 2k purchase cost of a +1 enhancement off the weapon table.

I'm kind of clueless why shurikens come in sets of 5 and not 20 like arrows....

Shadow Lodge

Sneak attacks do work on undead and constructs. Might want to have a quick look at the Pathfinder rules relevant to your character before you play, because that's not the only thing that changed.

+1 Whatever Bane Shuriken would cost 8310gp for 50 shuriken. You must buy in lots of 50, and you must have 27 Fame (approximately level 5) before you can purchase them. Special materials like Silver or Cold Iron cost more.

Kysune wrote:
I'm kind of clueless why shurikens come in sets of 5 and not 20 like arrows....

It's for the same reason xbow bolts come in quarrels of 10. Which is to say, I have no idea but that's what the designers intended.


I suggested ki charge because it does area damage. Swarms are immune to weapon damage but take 150% damage from area of effect attacks. I suppose it's a matter of personal preference as ki charge is situational as well. Swarms come up often enough and at high tier alchemists fires just don't cut it anymore. Swarms are really good at making non spellcasters useless in combat. One reason I suggest taking ki charge as opposed to using forgotten trick when you need it is because you don't want to drop 3 ki points just to stand a chance against a swarm.

You can sneak attack undead and constructs. That restriction has been removed. However, undead and constructs are still immune to ability damage to their physical ability scores as well as any effect that calls for a fortitude save. Assassinate wouldn't work on undead or constructs because it calls for a fortitude save.

Bane shuriken are probably going to be out of the question. Magic ammunition must be bought in lots of 50 so you are spending 8000 gold to enhance 50 masterwork shuriken. I wouldn't recommend buying bane shuriken but if you have to, humanoid(human) and undead would probably be the best types to key them to.

I suggested evasion because high tier spells can really ruin your day because you still take half damage from some of them. If a level 10 wizard catches you in a fireball, even if you save, you are still going to take around 25-30 damage or so. You might only have 50 HP or so at the level you are fighting that level 10 wizard so having evasion can make or break combat.


try using the vishkanya race if you are using pathfinder they can poison their weapon(s) as a swift action and they are proficient with shuriken, blowguns, and kukri just so you know.

The Exchange

Wow... Thread necro.
Not a criticism - just an observation.

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