Online games and auditing character sheets

[rknop]

My first PFS games (as both player and GM) were PbP games on Myth-Weavers. There, we require the players to keep a forum thread for their characters with all their chronicle sheets on it, so that GMs can quickly review them before a game starts. I've always done all the various gold accounting on the right side of the page, and indeed as GM I wouldn't sign the final sheets until I'd seen all that.

When I started running FtF games at the Uni where I teach, I was similarly anal; I'd hand out the chronicle sheets, but I wouldn't sign them until all the accounting was done.

When I ran a game on Thursday before PaizoCon, I discovered that lots of people had been collecting chronicle sheets from games but never doing the accounting on the right.

Now that I've started running VTT games, I've discovered that the culture seems to be that the GM never sees the character sheet. One person even explicitly said that getting character and chronicle sheets in a form that the GM could see was effort he would refuse to put in for an online GM. I've only run one game, and have two planned. I'm odd, because I've asked to see character sheets and chronicle sheets ahead of time. The first game, half the players complied. The game I'm running tomorrow morning, only one out of five has complied.

Part of me thinks I should just give in to the culture and not bother trying to see character sheets and chronicles before the game. On the other hand, part of me thinks that, hey, wait, if GMs looking over these sheets are part of what's supposed to not only keep everybody honest, but keep everybody from making accounting errors, I shouldn't give in. I'm considering moving to a system where I don't let people muster just by signing up, but I instead say that the first 6 people who send me character sheets and chronicles will be seated at the game. However, I wonder if that means that I'll be written off as a viable GM.

Has anybody else, ever, attempted to do character audits for VTT games?

What's the culture for PbP? At Myth-Weavers, we've been asking folks to have all the chronicles available. Does this happen elsewhere?

Are these rules more honored in the breach than in the observance?

[David_Bross]

Personally I'd only ask to look at a character sheet if something seemed off to me. I'd only ask to look at chronicle sheets if what was on the character sheet seemed off to me.

When I'm playing a game I will ask people the accounting on things (GMing or playing) when bonuses seem rather high (or low).

at the LGS here I've seen two character audits done in the last 6 months. Including looking at chronicles.

PFS works on the honor system, its really the only way.

[rknop]

Practically speaking, that may be true, but that's not what it says in the Guide....

For a VTT game, auditing a character sheet if something seems off becomes impractical. They aren't sitting there at a table with you, holding their sheets. If they don't have it ready in a digital form easily emailed (in which case they could have easily sent it to you anyway), then there's no way you're going to be able to check if something seems off in the middle of a game.

I understand the argument for doing PFS on the honor system. My problem with it is that that is at direct odds with what the Guide says. If that's how the community works, then I will adapt, but I'd like the campaign leadership and the online VC to comment on whether this really is acceptable. (That is: being entirely on the honor system, since it's effectively impossible to audit sheets in the middle of a game if something seems off, if you haven't asked for those sheets ahead of time.)

I'd also like it if the Guide rules reflected what people are actually expected to do.

[David_Bross]

He did comment. If you have a concern request sheet and chronicles. No response within 1 week (and I'd personally hold the chronicle) and you should contact a VO, him in this case.

[rknop]

Where is this comment?

[David_Bross]

Its on the Google Groups PSoP collective.

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Let me reiterate what has been said before in this thread: games organized here both fall under the rulings spelled out by Mike Brock and Mark Moreland. That is to say, you cannot keep a player from your table on the basis of what class they play while recruiting from games on this outlet. Someone signing up for these forums is no different than a player walking through a game store door: if they sign-up and space is available, you must sit them regardless of their character choices.

Now, as a GM, you have a couple options to help run your game:
You can set a table cap of 6 players. The scenarios are written for 6 players. You may consider a 7th player, as spelled out on pg. 34 of the GtOP, but it is not required of you.
If you feel that a player is overpowering a scenario, more often than not they do not have the correct build (either they are misinterpreting a rule, or they have purchased something beyond what their fame allows, etc.). You can request that they send you their character sheet and all chronicles for that character for you to do a full audit. I would suggest asking for this after a scenario is finished. If they do not relinquish all information on their character within a week (I am setting this as an informal deadline, I do not think it is too much to ask for in a week though - I mean it should be known you need to have digital forms of all this for playing online), the GM requesting the information should forward me or my VOs (when they get announced) the original e-mail requesting this information. We will handle the case further from there.
As a GM, you have the right to set the tempo for the game. When I find myself at tables where players are taking way too long, I start setting a time limit on my phone of two minutes. If the player who takes a long time does not resolve their actions within that time, I move onto who is next in initiative. But if you choose to run a game this way, you must hold all players to the same standard and announce this when you make the change (or just let players know this is your MO at the beginning). That being said, as a GM, do not set some ridiculous standard like 30 seconds, especially with the challenges of playing online.
These are meant to be guidelines for you as a GM to follow. These are not official campaign rules, but good words to live by. If you wish to question any of these suggestions, I suggest you e-mail me. For all intents and purposes though, the discussion of whether it being legal to ban a player based on the class they bring to a game created here is over, it is NOT legal. If you wish to do something like that, organize through an invite-only group / e-mail you create.

Thanks,

The Venture-Captain for Online Play

[Sior]

I think it odd that we're expected to keep digital paperwork and character sheets. Yes, we play online, but I for one also play in person. If you insist on seeing my character, I'll scan everything in, but I'm not going to have it on hand freely available.

That said, I've never seen a character get audited, online or round the table. I've inquired as to people's builds, as have other players, checking when something doesn't feel right. But it comes out alright in the end without the need to go delving into sheets and the like.

The game relies heavily on the honour system. Why should we start policing it and adding time and effort? Hard enough to find GM's to just RUN a game, let alone get investigative with every single person who shows up to a table.

[rknop]

Yeah, I understand... I'm just one of those people who gets annoyed when the written rules directly contradict expected practice. And, the written rules here are pretty clear that we are supposed to be doing audits.

[Madclaw]

I will admit I can see the point of auditing sheets before hand, but IMHO shows a lack of trust in your players. That may not be the intent, but someone could feel that way and hence their reason for not submitting it to you. I feel like everyone should be treated as having their sheet and purchases correct until something suspicious happens. Innocent until proven guilty.

Also, if you don't sign sheets until all gold is accounted for do you mean including all purchases being made and what not? Because I tend to take time looking through stuff and evaluating what I'm going to get, even after years of playing. Sometimes it may be a week or two until I finally decide.

[Madclaw]

rknop wrote:

Yeah, I understand... I'm just one of those people who gets annoyed when the written rules directly contradict expected practice. And, the written rules here are pretty clear that we are supposed to be doing audits.

From the way I read it we as GMs, are only supposed to audit once we feel something is irregular with a character.

[rknop]

Madclaw wrote:

rknop wrote:

Yeah, I understand... I'm just one of those people who gets annoyed when the written rules directly contradict expected practice. And, the written rules here are pretty clear that we are supposed to be doing audits.

From the way I read it we as GMs, are only supposed to audit once we feel something is irregular with a character.

Page 32 of the Guide to PFS Organized Play:

Quote:

As a Pathfinder Society Organized Play Game Master
running a session at a convention or an in-store event,
you have the following duties.
• Introduce yourself.
• Encourage your players to introduce themselves (and
their characters).
• Look over each player’s character sheet and previous
Chronicle sheets, quickly checking wealth, equipment,
calculations, and so on.
• Start playing the session
...etc...

That third bullet point doesn't say "only do it if something is irregular", it says "look over each player's character sheet".

If that's not what we're expected to be doing as GMs, then the guide shouldn't list that as one of the GM duties. It should instead somewhere say that the players should all have their character sheets and chronicle sheets ready for the GM to look at if the GM wants to, and should tell the GM to audit them if something seems off.

[Madclaw]

I think this is one of those instances where you follow the unwritten rule. Much like driving, although the posted speed limit is X mph or kph, but it is generally accepted that you move with the flow of traffic.

[rknop]

Practically speaking, you seem to be right.

I hate that. That's what I said -- I'm annoyed when the written rules are different from what everybody is supposed to do. I've learned to live with it with speed limits, and, honestly, I think most posted speed limits are stupid.

Given that these rules are rewritten every year, I'd like to see the rules say what we're really supposed to be doing, so that people like me don't come in, try to do what we're supposed to do, and offend people in so doing.

[Madclaw]

I think the auditing sheets thing was only added in recent versions to give GMs the power and precedence to do so when needed.

[Paz]

If you're playing in an online game, you should expect the GM to want to see your character sheet/statblock before or during the session, even if its only to check your Will save, languages, etc. for something relevant to the game, just as he might want to do in a face-to-face game.

Similarly, if you're relying on something on a chronicle sheet (e.g. race boon, non-standard equipment you want to buy) then it's reasonable for the GM to want to look at it, just as he might want to do in a face-to-face game.

GMs should bear in mind that if people are playing a mix of face-to-face and VTT games, it might not be trivial to get everything scanned in promptly, especially when the PC is mid-level and might have a couple of dozen chronicles. If nothing looks out of place, then insisting on seeing a full record of chronicle sheets online in advance of the session is probably overkill. however, if something comes up that does look out of place, then auditing seems wise.

All IMHO, of course.

[Paz]

rknop: Out of interest, what are you auditing for? Is it because of suspicions of foul play, or to look for any odd rules options being used, or to make sure there haven't been any maths errors when calculating bonuses, or what?

[rknop]

That's the wrong question. I'm not auditing "for" anything. I'm looking over the character sheets, making sure that scores, abilities, and equipment look plausible, for everybody because that's what GMs are supposed to do before a game. There's no belief of wrongdoing or even mistakes, it's just doing the GM duties that I read about in the organized play Guide.

Errors I've found include many people who haven't done accounting, and one person who got an additional feat beyond what he'd already listed....

[Doctor Kash]

It occurs to me that many people don't have a way to produce their character/chronicle sheets online. I might need to create a video tutorial on the methods that I use.

In meatspace games I've never been asked for my sheets. I'd asked one GM why and he responded that with setting up the table, wrangling miniatures, maps, physical space, his notes, and all the pre-game paperwork, he simply didn't have time. I'd imagine that goes moreso for cons, which PFS seems heavily written towards.

As a GM, I reserve the right to view the sheets, but as has been said before in the thread, many people may take that as an accusation. I suspect that is the reason it is written as it is in the guide- phrasing it as a responsibility of the GM makes the request seem more like something the GM HAS to do instead of something the GM WANTS to do. It's protection for the GM and a way to enforce the social contract.

That being said, I've made it my responsibility as a player to have a method for producing all of my documentation at a moment's notice. I've accomplished this through the use of Dropbox, which lets me make PDFs available on the cloud through public web links. My character sheet is on a Hero Lab PDF available for any GM that needs to see it, and all of my chronicles are also on the cloud.

As an aside, this is also the method that I use to provide chronicles to players in my games, and I also keep backups in case a player loses their sheet.

[thejeff]

Doctor Kash wrote:

It occurs to me that many people don't have a way to produce their character/chronicle sheets online. I might need to create a video tutorial on the methods that I use.

That being said, I've made it my responsibility as a player to have a method for producing all of my documentation at a moment's notice. I've accomplished this through the use of Dropbox, which lets me make PDFs available on the cloud through public web links. My character sheet is on a Hero Lab PDF available for any GM that needs to see it, and all of my chronicles are also on the cloud.

As an aside, this is also the method that I use to provide chronicles to players in my games, and I also keep backups in case a player loses their sheet.

How about just a text tutorial? And does it start with "Buy a scanner."?

Once I've got them in digital format there are any number of ways to get them to an online GM. It's that first step.

[Doctor Kash]

thejeff wrote:

How about just a text tutorial? And does it start with "Buy a scanner."?

Once I've got them in digital format there are any number of ways to get them to an online GM. It's that first step.

You could use a scanner, but I don't see the need for it. Let me see what I can produce just off the top of my head.

As a GM:
Download and install Nitro PDF Reader
Sign up for a dropbox account, and install that
Open the scenario PDF, then go to the chronicle sheet page.
File > Print
Under printer, change the printer option to Nitro PDF Creator (Reader 3) and just print the Current Page.
A Save As dialog should come up, allowing you to save a PDF of just the chronicle sheet.
Next, go to pdfescape.com
Upload the chronicle sheet PDF you've just created
Use PDFEscape's tools to fill out the necessary information
Click the download button when finished (looks like a green box with two white arrows pointing down)
Save the filled out sheet
On your computer you should have a new Dropbox folder (Default is under My Documents). Within this folder is a Public folder. Anything you place in there will be public. Save the completed PDF into this folder (Subfolders are okay).
After that if you navigate to the file in that folder, you should be able to right click on it and within that menu find a Drobpox section. Under the Dropbox section you should find an option to Copy Public Link.
All you need to do at that point is give that link to whoever you're intending to send the sheet to.

As a player you can follow the steps above except that you don't have to create the initial PDF.

Like I said, quick and dirty, and not up to my usual standards of documentation. Eventually I will church this up and put it on the Youtubes.

[pathar]

Doctor Kash wrote:

thejeff wrote:

How about just a text tutorial? And does it start with "Buy a scanner."?

Once I've got them in digital format there are any number of ways to get them to an online GM. It's that first step.

You could use a scanner, but I don't see the need for it. Let me see what I can produce just off the top of my head.

As a GM:
Download and install Nitro PDF Reader
Sign up for a dropbox account, and install that
Open the scenario PDF, then go to the chronicle sheet page.
File > Print
Under printer, change the printer option to Nitro PDF Creator (Reader 3) and just print the Current Page.
A Save As dialog should come up, allowing you to save a PDF of just the chronicle sheet.
Next, go to pdfescape.com
Upload the chronicle sheet PDF you've just created
Use PDFEscape's tools to fill out the necessary information
Click the download button when finished (looks like a green box with two white arrows pointing down)
Save the filled out sheet
On your computer you should have a new Dropbox folder (Default is under My Documents). Within this folder is a Public folder. Anything you place in there will be public. Save the completed PDF into this folder (Subfolders are okay).
After that if you navigate to the file in that folder, you should be able to right click on it and within that menu find a Drobpox section. Under the Dropbox section you should find an option to Copy Public Link.
All you need to do at that point is give that link to whoever you're intending to send the sheet to.

As a player you can follow the steps above except that you don't have to create the initial PDF.

Like I said, quick and dirty, and not up to my usual standards of documentation. Eventually I will church this up and put it on the Youtubes.

The point is that a player with paper chronicles doesn't necessarily own a scanner.

[thejeff]

Doctor Kash wrote:

thejeff wrote:

How about just a text tutorial? And does it start with "Buy a scanner."?

Once I've got them in digital format there are any number of ways to get them to an online GM. It's that first step.

You could use a scanner, but I don't see the need for it. Let me see what I can produce just off the top of my head.

As a GM:
Download and install Nitro PDF Reader
Sign up for a dropbox account, and install that
Open the scenario PDF, then go to the chronicle sheet page.
File > Print
Under printer, change the printer option to Nitro PDF Creator (Reader 3) and just print the Current Page.
A Save As dialog should come up, allowing you to save a PDF of just the chronicle sheet.
Next, go to pdfescape.com
Upload the chronicle sheet PDF you've just created
Use PDFEscape's tools to fill out the necessary information
Click the download button when finished (looks like a green box with two white arrows pointing down)
Save the filled out sheet
On your computer you should have a new Dropbox folder (Default is under My Documents). Within this folder is a Public folder. Anything you place in there will be public. Save the completed PDF into this folder (Subfolders are okay).
After that if you navigate to the file in that folder, you should be able to right click on it and within that menu find a Drobpox section. Under the Dropbox section you should find an option to Copy Public Link.
All you need to do at that point is give that link to whoever you're intending to send the sheet to.

As a player you can follow the steps above except that you don't have to create the initial PDF.

Like I said, quick and dirty, and not up to my usual standards of documentation. Eventually I will church this up and put it on the Youtubes.

Thanks. That does help.

I was thinking more about mixing FtF and online games. If I've already got paper chronicles from a live game, a scanner is pretty much necessary, right?

Edit: Quick and dirty it may be, but for following most instructions I far prefer text I can quickly refer to than video I have to follow along in and pause and try to find that one step that I forgot. I'm old fashioned :)

[Doctor Kash]

thejeff wrote:

I was thinking more about mixing FtF and online games. If I've already got paper chronicles from a live game, a scanner is pretty much necessary, right?

Edit: Quick and dirty it may be, but for...

Oh, I get you now. Yeah, if you need data/online accessible copies of physical sheets, you're going to need a scanner. I would love to see Paizo come up with a way where all sheets would be digitized from the get-go.

Luckily, scanners aren't very expensive. You can score a bare-bones one for less than the copy of a PFRPG hardback.

[rknop]

Yeah, I've thought it would be nice if sheets were pure digital. However, that would bring its own problems. F'rinstance, at PaizoCon, there was no Internet access in the main PFS room. People may have phones, but I came down from BC so didn't have USA service. If sheets are digital-only, then it potentially makes things harder for FtF games, which I suspect is most of the PFS games out there.

[caubocalypse]

Online GMs have every right to ask for character information from players as much GMs from stores and conventions have. GMs do not have to exercise this right if they do not wish, but I will back up any GM who wishes to do so.

As I said in another e-mail to a fellow online player:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

You are required to bring every chronicle for the character you are playing with to any gameday. That is a stated rule of the campaign. If, for whatever reason, the player does not have the chronicles for their character, that character is illegal until the player can show proof of the chronicles. This is spelled out on pg. 21 of the GtOP under the "Do Not Cheat" section. Any GM has the right to request seeing this information from their players. It is spelled out on pg. 32 of the GtOP under the "Your Duties as Game Master" section.

Online players are not going to get separate special treatment. If a GM requests to see chronicles of a character from an online player, that player needs to find a way to present the requested information. If that player does not present that information, their character is illegal and that GM needs to notify any Online Play VOs. If a GM has the power to audit characters at a physical table, they have the same online.

I will soon be rolling out a system to be used by Online VOs to track players who do not wish to comply with campaign stated rules of having copies of their character sheets and chronicles. This will coincide with the coming organization of online gamedays and convention support that is very near on the horizon. Players who are known to not maintain digital copies of character records will be subject to all of the following (I will spell out rules how a player ends up on this list as I roll out the system):

- Denied access to prizes for officially supported Online events until digital records are shown
- Denied access to boons for officially supported Online events until digital records are shown
- Not allowed to sign-up for officially supported Online events until digital records are shown

It is not the concern of the Campaign how you make digital copies of your character records, just that you have them. If you have a personal scanner, that is one way. You can also go to your local printing store (ex. FedEx, Office Max, etc.), you can always have them scan and make PDFs of those files. Cameras also work. Just make sure that your digital documents are readable.

While there is no way to ensure that all online games are following these rules, we will make sure official Online events are. We will also back any Online GM adhering to these rules as well.

Note: This is not to say we are going to audit every character, but we will enforce to right to audit should it be desired. Online GMs do not have to audit all their characters, but should players not respect that right, then further actions outlined above will be taken for officially supported events. Also, GMs have every right to refuse players a seat at their table, should the player not wish to comply.

[rknop]

thejeff wrote:

I was thinking more about mixing FtF and online games. If I've already got paper chronicles from a live game, a scanner is pretty much necessary, right?

While a flatbed scanner is nicer, any digital camera can serve as a scanner nowadays. Lay the sheet out, make sure the lighting is halfway decent, frame the shot, and snap away. I suspect the cameras built into almost every cellphone are more than sufficient for the purpose of creating the record.

(I use a flatbed myself, but I use the scanner for lots of other things as well. Indeed, the vast majority of the scanning I do is solution sets to physics problems I've assigned....)

[Hayato Ken]

Normally every smartphone can with a free App make a pdf out of a cam pic.

I welcome this, since it will help me a great deal in controlling other´s characters as well as my own stuff!

I have to say though, PFS already has a reporting system. If GM´s report their sessions within the reporting system and players register their characters there, you have a lot of stuff already accessible.

[Keht]

to your original statement about a player refusing to provide you with chronicle sheets upon request... The rules are clear and so are the statements from the online VC. They must provide them when asked, in this situation I would not have allowed him to play if he absolutely refused to provide the chronicles. If a player say's he will provide them and you really want them you have the right to hold his chronicle until the information is provided.

Now, as to having a campaign wide policy that requires a GM to review every player's sheets and chronicles and make it part of our culture to do so... This I would be totally against. First, we don't need this level of micro management from the campaign staff on our GMs. Most GM's and players are more then mature enough to handle this on a case by case basis. Secondly its not practical. Our group runs 2-3 different games of multiple tables each day, 7 days a week. This would end up being a paperwork nightmare. Having a campaign wide policy that would do something like this would effectively kill online play. There is no epidemic issue with this and we shouldn't make one about it. I don't think you were suggesting this but I want to strongly disagree if any suggestion like this is made. I can see this discussion easily going this way.

Most VTT players don't play like PbP'ers... We don't spend months on a single scenario. We spend 4 hours just like in real life. There is no need to turn this hobby more into a job more than it already is.

Personally I have all my chronicles (or most of them, haven't updated in a few weeks) on a webpage to handle these requests. If a GM requests it I will provide it, but outside of a GM requesting it I don't think to offer it.

[mariogolbee]

I see why digital copies are emphasized here, especially for play by post/forum games, but when playing a virtual tabletop is not simply showing a physical copy using the live camera acceptable if the player and GM both have access to this technology? Is not ruling that it must be a digital copy simply a technicality? A player just has to produce the chronicles, do they not?

[caubocalypse]

It will be at the discretion of the GM. Some might just want to see you have the chronicles and just showing them through the camera might be all they need to be satisfied.

If I am GMing, or I get asked to audit a character as an event organizer, I will want digital copies I can go through and do a thorough audit. But that is my personal preference. Your mileage may vary.

Pre-emptive note: We are not requiring all GMs to do audits. We are discussing the responsibilities of players to maintain accurate records and the rights of GMs to audit characters, if they choose to do so, as laid out by the Campaign. Thanks!

[rknop]

Yeah, I would want to see things the night before, rather than at the start of the scenario, because then even the five minutes I'm liable to spend on most of the characters isn't dead time at the table. Also, if something does seem weird, I'm more likely to have the time to try to figure it out than if a bunch of people are waiting online for the game to start.

Re: holding up chronicle sheets to a web cam, that could be fine... except that in many cases, we aren't using a video feed. We're just using a voice chat server and a VTT program.

[Netopalis]

Joseph: Would it be possible to go ahead and get in writing that a player has a reasonable amount of time to comply with a request for chronicles? I am personally concerned that some GMs might demand chronicles on the spot without notice and deny play to those who don't have them immediately available.

[caubocalypse]

I will work with Campaign leadership to see what needs to be codified.

It should be noted that if a GM requests chronicles from a player prior to starting the game, the GM has every right to un-invite players from his table for not giving him proper documentation. Those issues should be worked out between a player and a GM. If they are not resolved, then it should addressed to the Online Play VOs.

[rknop]

I'm of the opinion myself that if you're playing online, you should already have them in digital form somewhere.

Just as if you go to a game store, and you want to play a PFS character, you're supposed to bring your PFS sheets with you. Perhaps you could be excused the occasional "oops, I forgot them at home", but leaving them at home and asking the GM to give you a long time after the game to review a sheet you decided not to bring with you to the store simply isn't how PFS works.

By the same token, if you show up at an online table, you should be ready to show the chronicle sheets to the GM.

[Kubra]

If for face to face play you are expected to have a physical version of your character I think the same should be expected virtually. I don't see how it is any easier to scan a chronicle sheet than it is to print a chronicle sheet (in fact for me it is easier to scan my physical sheets then it is to print my virtual ones) and a player can very easily write out their character sheets in a fallible pdf version for online use. I think GM's should have every right to ask for this information. Perhaps it should even be encouraged for organizational purposes.

[mariogolbee]

I do have most of my sheets in digital form somewhere. However, the sheets which are in digital form are in JPEG, PNG, PDF, and in GM's drop boxes. I also have physical sheets from F2F games. At one point I tried the suggestion of using a drop box. After a while I had a cluster of files, some which would not read in the box, and a whole bunch of IDK what from other people's boxes.

Requiring digital copies of everything means one I have to get access to a scanner and sort these digital files out somehow. I know I have learned a thing or two about files, etc., since playing online, but I don't plan on having everything digitally in one place anytime soon. I already tried it and it was a PITA. So, I print everything. If I am playing online with a GM who would expect to see my sheets I would in turn expect them to LMK ahead of time. If they can't just look at my sheets through a perfectly good camera lens as I hold them up for them, I simply won't play. However, if a GM lets me run through a scenario and then actually holds my sheet at the end for not having digital copies of everything having not informed me they would be checking them or holding my sheet, then shame on them.

[belowyn]

Well, from someone who only plays online (not a single PFS-game running in our entire country), Ive seen both auditing and not.

I started out playing on FantasyGrounds. Freom what I read on the forums, they were not doing much before, but when I started there, they required the character sheet in XML to import into FG, as well as the last Chronicle Sheet before you were confirmed to a table.

When I a little bit later came over the Online Collective Google group, stuff wasnt as coordinated. Noone asked for a character sheet, filled out any "bought" or "sold" on chronicle sheets, and not everyone even filled out char-name on the sheets they handed out.

Ive collected all my chronicle sheets in each folder for each character, so I can recheck xp, cash and boons whenever I want, and present them to any GM wanting them.

As for the rules on auditing, as you posted the "running a session at a convention or an in-store event", and this beeing online, I would say that counts as optional to look through, but requierd from players to comply with your wishes (as stated by Joseph Caubo), so I wont repeat any more of that.

As a beginning GM (hosting my first GM later today), Id probably not bother with checking char-sheets in the lower tiers, unless I think something is amiss. At least not when games often are done on the spot, without much preparation. Later, with more preplanned games, maybe. I find looking through other char-sheets to be interesting. Seeing different builds and preferences lets me learn a lot about the game.

One thing I would wish for, is a good way to keep a digital char-sheet. Personally I use FantasyGrounds to keep my characters up to date, even tho I usually play on roll20. Easy access to anything, and calculations on stats etc. I also have a digital character sheet on my iPad I use for homegames etc. None of those has an easy Export->PDF that I know of. Are there any good editable PDFs out there? Maybe Paizo could make some and/or have a place to host them, maybe together with the chronicles on their page, so people could access them for games?
If you have any good suggestions, maybe that could be included in the links-section of the Online Collective? :)

[Madclaw]

So, is there anyway that we could potentially update the reporting system that is currently in place? It could have the relevant info required. The only problem is that reporting would increase drastically. The providing a screen cap of your character sessions would suffice and having to scan all relevant documents wouldn't be required.

[wvpolarbear]

I don't think I saw anyone refusing to do auditing or asking for character sheets and chronicles before games. I did however note that when you are running five games a week, the amount of extra time you would need to set aside to gather information from players, who are notoriously sparse and sometimes need to be pushed just to give you a faction pregame, would be extremely prohibitive. If absolutely requiring these things at every game is the way the system is going, count me out. These changes will certainly have me running fewer games as I swim in a sea of regulated paperwork.
That said, the VC seems to be limiting requiring this, rather than the area lockdown suggested by rknob

rknop wrote:

My first PFS games (as both player and GM) were PbP games on Myth-Weavers. There, we require the players to keep a forum thread for their characters with all their chronicle sheets on it, so that GMs can quickly review them before a game starts. I've always done all the various gold accounting on the right side of the page, and indeed as GM I wouldn't sign the final sheets until I'd seen all that.

When I started running FtF games at the Uni where I teach, I was similarly anal; I'd hand out the chronicle sheets, but I wouldn't sign them until all the accounting was done.

When I ran a game on Thursday before PaizoCon, I discovered that lots of people had been collecting chronicle sheets from games but never doing the accounting on the right.

Now that I've started running VTT games, I've discovered that the culture seems to be that the GM never sees the character sheet. One person even explicitly said that getting character and chronicle sheets in a form that the GM could see was effort he would refuse to put in for an online GM. I've only run one game, and have two planned. I'm odd, because I've asked to see character sheets and chronicle sheets ahead of time. The first game, half the players complied. The game I'm running tomorrow morning, only one out of five has complied.

Part of me thinks I should just give in to the culture and not bother trying to see character sheets and chronicles before the game. On the other hand, part of me thinks that, hey, wait, if GMs looking over these sheets are part of what's supposed to not only keep everybody honest, but keep everybody from making accounting errors, I shouldn't give in. I'm considering moving to a system where I don't let people muster just by signing up, but I instead say that the first 6 people who send me character sheets and chronicles will be seated at the game. However, I wonder if that means that I'll be written off as a viable GM.

Has anybody else, ever, attempted to do character audits for VTT games?

What's the culture for...

[rknop]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting any kind of "area lockdown", if by that you mean requiring the GM to do character audits every game. It's the rules as written, not me, that say that.

I'm 100% happy with what Joseph has said. It's the GMs' discretion whether or not to do audits. A side effect of this is that it is (officially) reasonable to expect players to have character sheets and chronicles in a form they can make available to online GMs. This ruling is the most online-GM-friendly possible.

[Josh Banner]

Glad to see you are keeping all this online play honest Joseph. Keep up the good work. It may not be glamorous but it is appreciated.

[wvpolarbear]

My apologies rknop, I must have misunderstood.

The problem with asking for character sheets and chronicles is the technical limitations of the system. Those who play ;in meatspace; who have no scanners now must have one online only character? Because that's the only way they could store their chronicles.
What about character sheets. Is there a specific sheet that should exist, or does any old program work? What if you have herolab, but you dont have all the extra add ons for the books you own? Is there a single consistent location that can, and should, be used for storing character sheets?

[David_Bross]

this actually gives me an interesting idea.. Think I'll scan in all my chronicles as a PDF, maybe then I won't have to lug so much paper to the LGS every time.

[caubocalypse]

wvpolarbear wrote:

The problem with asking for character sheets and chronicles is the technical limitations of the system.

Each style of play has their limitations. Physical gamedays and conventions have their own limitations, so does Online Play.

Quote:

Those who play ;in meatspace; who have no scanners now must have one online only character? Because that's the only way they could store their chronicles.

False. If a player wishes to play any character online, they must be ready to present their chronicles at the request of the GM. If they have no scanner, there are plenty of options available to them outside of purchasing their own scanner (such as visiting a friend, paying an office supply store to scan documents, etc).

If a player has a character they bring to both physical gamedays and online games, they need to be prepared to have both paper copies and / or digital copies, depending on their gameplay environment. Once again, this is to make sure they are in compliance with the stated rules in the Guide. If the player is unprepared in either game space, the GM is well within their right to ask the player to leave.

Quote:

What about character sheets. Is there a specific sheet that should exist, or does any old program work?

Any program works. There are a wide range of options, from Hero Lab, PCGen, form-fillable PDFs, Excel spreadsheets, etc. What a player uses does not matter so much, just as long as they can give something to the GM if they decide to audit.

Quote:

What if you have herolab, but you dont have all the extra add ons for the books you own?

The player can:

- Purchase the corresponding Hero Lab add-ons to match what they have.
- Code in Hero Lab what they have to get around paying for those packages
- Use any other method of creating character sheets as listed in the previous question

Quote:

Is there a single consistent location that can, and should, be used for storing character sheets?

This is at the discretion of the player. Everyone with a GMail account has access to Google Drive (or can easily sign up for one), folks can sign up for Dropbox, iCloud offers 5 free GB of space, etc.

The Campaign sets the standard that players must be prepared to present their chronicles and character sheet at the request of the GM. How they present them is a decision to be made between themselves and the GM they are playing under.

[Sior]

I guess I'm creating PDF versions of all my character sheets... Just hope I can remember to keep them up to date...

[David_Bross]

Joseph Caubo wrote:

If a player has a character they bring to both physical gamedays and online games, they need to be prepared to have both paper copies and / or digital copies, depending on their gameplay environment. Once again, this is to make sure they are in compliance with the stated rules in the Guide. If the player is unprepared in either game space, the GM is well within their right to ask the player to leave.

Joseph,

Does this mean that in a LGS I'd be required to have paper copies of my chronicles? It seems odd that if I could email my chronicles to a GM to audit me, I couldn't show a GM at the LGS my chronicles on my laptop, tablet, etc.

[Keht]

David_Bross wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

If a player has a character they bring to both physical gamedays and online games, they need to be prepared to have both paper copies and / or digital copies, depending on their gameplay environment. Once again, this is to make sure they are in compliance with the stated rules in the Guide. If the player is unprepared in either game space, the GM is well within their right to ask the player to leave.

Joseph,

Does this mean that in a LGS I'd be required to have paper copies of my chronicles? It seems odd that if I could email my chronicles to a GM to audit me, I couldn't show a GM at the LGS my chronicles on my laptop, tablet, etc.

Why is this so complicated? keep your character sheets on paper in a binder for LGS (or keep them loose, whatever.... you have to fill them out before scanning). Scan them in, take a picture and store it in Google drive for online play.

[rknop]

Taking a picture is the easiest way to do it. I you have a flatbed scanner, so much the better. I keep all my records digital, because most of my playing is online. However, I have a couple of characters that have mixed online and live playing. For the games I've GMed for credit, I've just made the GM chronicle sheet using the Gimp to add the relevant lines to the sheet (reading it from the PDF of the scenario).

I actually keep my character sheets in a Google spreadsheet doc that I found somewhere and modified. Here's my modified version.

Indeed, for my Kingmaker game (which is a FtF game with my regular group), all the players have their characters in that character sheet. It means I can see it, and they can see it, at any time. It's very convenient. The only hassle is that players all need their laptops at the table. Some don't want that, so I print out the sheets for them, or they can print them out themselves.

When I play PbP at Myth-Weavers, I use the Myth-Weavers character sheet.

When I'm going to play a FtF game where I won't have Internet access (e.g. at PaizoCon 2013), I will either write out a character sheet based on the Google spreadsheet, or print out the relevant pages of the Google spreadsheet. I also print out copies of the chronicle sheets that I don't already have hard copies of.

[pathar]

David_Bross wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

If a player has a character they bring to both physical gamedays and online games, they need to be prepared to have both paper copies and / or digital copies, depending on their gameplay environment. Once again, this is to make sure they are in compliance with the stated rules in the Guide. If the player is unprepared in either game space, the GM is well within their right to ask the player to leave.

Joseph,

Does this mean that in a LGS I'd be required to have paper copies of my chronicles? It seems odd that if I could email my chronicles to a GM to audit me, I couldn't show a GM at the LGS my chronicles on my laptop, tablet, etc.

This actually does kind of open that door. And I'd really enjoy walking through it--I have everything on my tablet now except Chronicles. I think I'll start a thread after GenCon to see what people think ...

[N N 959]

rknop wrote:

Part of me thinks I should just give in to the culture and not bother trying to see character sheets and chronicles before the game. On the other hand, part of me thinks that, hey, wait, if GMs looking over these sheets are part of what's supposed to not only keep everybody honest, but keep everybody from making accounting errors, I shouldn't give in.

Put me squarely in the camp that supports GMs checking sheets and even reviewing chronicles if so inclined. Yes, Pathfinder is an honor system, and that's great. But when players don't follow the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, the GM is the person who must ultimately correct that.

It's not that I think there are hordes of on-line players who are intending to cheat, but people frequently get the rules wrong and make mistakes. However, if the GM doesn't catch these errors, it can ruin a game for me and maybe others. I played a PbP quest, where the GM not only allowed a player to make his own custom pre-gen with OOC knowledge of the encounter, he then proceeded to allow that player to violate the rules in allowing the player to make attacks which are primary hand attacks as foot attacks along with weapon attacks in his primary hands. This proliferation of unquestioningly illegal benefits had the effect of totally and completely trivializing the quest. I'm sure the GMs attitude is, "so what', it's only a quest," but then why not just hand out chronicles from the get go? Why bother with the facade?

When players benefit from illegal builds/mechanics/resources, it undermines the game. It devalues the game and at worst (as in my case) made the whole thing seem like a complete waste of time. The culture should never be one that frowns upon the one person who has the authority to uphold the integrity of the game, doing just that.

I play about 90% of my games in PbP. So that means that for the games I do play f2f, I have to transfer paper sheets to jpegs/pdfs. Sure, it takes time. It takes time to go through and correct sheets and rescan them if there are errors, especially when they are discovered months later. But I have no issue whatsoever with a GM asking for my sheets. I am far more likely to play with a GM who I know will run a tight ship.

Oddly enough, the only thing I don't subscribe to is that requirement of having the player fill out everything before signing the sheet. I feel this way for several reason:

1. PFS is an honor system per MM. If a player wants to cheat, the system is not designed to stop them. If a player intends on filling out a character sheet incorrectly and garnering benefits they are not entitled to, that person is going to do it whether the GM signs a filled out sheet or not. While I agree that the requirement may reduce the temptation to fudge things like wand use and ammunition spent, I personally think life is too short to expect GMs to police that stuff.

2. Logistically, it may take me weeks to figure out what I want to purchase as part of the last chronicle. This is especially true when I level and or am purchasing big ticket magic items. If suddenly I want to play a f2f game at the local store, I'd have to wait for the GM to convert the sheet. This doesn't happen overnight.

3. I've never seen a GM require a filled out sheet, not even at PaizoCon, not even with Boons that have to be assigned to characters. There's nothing unique about online play that makes me think PFS should have two different procedures. True, on-line, you have much more time to fill these things out as opposed to when the store is closing in 5 minutes or you have to go to another session. But lack of time is not sighted as a reason that GMs don't require filled out sheets before signing in face to face games. So in this case, I agree with rknop when he says the Guide should reflect what people do and not require a player to completely fill out a sheet. PP, subtier, gold, XP, conditions to be cleared, are all good things for the GM to fill out before signing a sheet. Items purchased or sold...not so much, imo.