A Rogue Broke My Game


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Liberty's Edge

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Hi All,

Recently in my campaign one of the heroes passed, and was replaced by another. I normally replace characters at the same level and with the equipment for a character of that level.

I am beginning to regret that decision.

This is what my player brought to the table and I think it just broken my game:

sarasan
Male Fetchling Rogue (Scout, Thug) 10
CN Medium Outsider (native)
Hero Points 1
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 19, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 53 (10d8)
Fort +5, Ref +17, Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion, shadow blending; Resist cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 Merciful Light mace +15/+10 (1d6+1d6 non-lethal +5d6 +10+5d6/x2) and
. . +1 Merciful Light mace +15/+10 (1d6+1d6 non-lethal +5d6+10+5d6/x2) and
. . +2 Bone Dagger +17/+12 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +15/+10 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +15/+10 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +15/+10 (1d3-1/x2)
Ranged Hand crossbow +15/+10 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Hand crossbow +15/+10 (1d4/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities Memory Lapse (1/day), Shadow Walk (1/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 9, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 25
Feats Enforcer, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Skill Focus (Stealth), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Light mace)
Traits Bully, Chance Savior, Dominator (Belkzen)
Skills Acrobatics +21 (+26 to jump, +25 jump), Appraise +5, Bluff +15, Climb +3, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +12, Disguise +9, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +18 (+20 to demoralize foes), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (history) +2, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Linguistics +7, Perception +14, Profession (Bounty Hunter) +8, Ride +9, Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +17 (+22 in dim light or darkness), Stealth +39 (+44 in dim light or darkness), Survival +5, Swim +3, Use Magic Device +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Knowledge (planes), +2 Stealth, frightening
Languages Aklo, Infernal, Shadowtongue, Varisian
SQ +5 to stealth and sleight of hand checks made in d, brutal beating (5 rds), glamered, hero points, merciful, merciful, rogue talents (bonus feat, combat trick, fast stealth, finesse rogue, weapon training)
Combat Gear Shadowcloy flask (5); Other Gear +2 Darkleaf Armour, +1 Merciful Light mace, +1 Merciful Light mace, +2 Bone Dagger, Crossbow bolts (60), Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Dagger, Hand crossbow, Hand crossbow, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of striding and springing, Cloak of resistance +2, Handy haversack (77 @ 28.1 lbs), Ring of protection +1, Ring of sustenance, Stalker's mask (1/day), Belt pouch (empty), Book of Crimes, Chain (10 ft.), Crossbow Quiver, Crossbow Quiver, Darklight lantern, Lock, superior, Manacles, masterwork, Thieves' tools, 5 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+5 to Stealth and Sleight of Hand checks made in dim light or darkness. Add a +½ bonus on Stealth and Sleight of Hand checks made while in dim light or darkness.
Brutal Beating (5 rds) (Ex) Forgo 1d6 sneak attack damage to sicken the target for 5 rds.
Chance Savior Fate smiled on you and Professor Lorrimor one day in the not so distant past. Through a matter of pure chance, you were in a position to save the late scholar's life and did so. His gratitude was effusive, and he promised that he would never forget y
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Dominator (Belkzen) You receive a +2 trait bonus on all attempts to demoralize an opponent in combat using your Intimidate skill.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Frightening (Ex) Demoralize duration increases by 1 rd, if 4+ rds can frighten 1 rd instead.
Glamered Assumes appearance of normal clothes on command.
Hellcat Stealth You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Merciful +1d6 damage, but all damage is nonlethal.
Merciful +1d6 damage, but all damage is nonlethal.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Shadow Blending (Su) Miss chance in dim light increases to 50%. This does not grant total concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stalker's mask (1/day) Take the face of one target in 60 ft, +10 to disguise as them, +2 to weapon att/dam vs them.
--------------------

Would someone like to offer a suggestion without saying - ummm...no.

Silver Crusade

You let him play a fetchling without having some idea of what you were getting into?

Also, from appearances, he's under medium encumbrance. Make sure he suffers all of the penalties for that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A "Hide in Plain Sight" variant, no surprise. Well, it's annoying, but he still is only a Rogue, so I'm not seeing the problem yet.


So what? He specializes in incapacitating his opponents

-For a level 10 character
- Hit points: 2 hits and he's dead.
- AC: almost kleenex at that level.
- Nonlethal damage: Good agaionst teh living... try that with undead & constructs.
- +6 will save? Cham/dominate turns him into a sock puppet.

His real damage is 2d6+1 nonlethal. Have him run into something that's DR cold iron or silver.

Nah, not seeing the issue, unless you have problems with sneaky characters that need to avoid combat.


My suggestion: Lots of undead creatures. Look at all the nonlethal sneak attack damage that the monsters are immune to. I wouldn't do nothing but undead to screw over his build, but just make it a point to find a few creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage to ensure he is at least challenged at times.

10d6 nonlethal sneak attack damage sounds OP at first, until you realize that there are a lot of things that are immune to nonlethal damage.

Liberty's Edge

I think I'm intimidated by the fact that he has such a high stealth that no-one will see him coming at them, which means that Sneak Damage will always apply. Hitting with 4 attacks in a round, that's a minimum of 88 points of damage with a full attack.

Combat just dropped to seconds rather than the old days of lasting 10 rounds.


I'm with Karg.

Be careful that you're not buying into the player's hype about how awesome their character is, and take a good long look at that statblock for obvious weaknesses.

Be careful you don't get stuck in a rut, with the same encounter or enemy type (humanoids?) over and over again.

You don't have to build NPCs to thwart this guy specifically, although, as he builds a reputation in the setting some NPCs will certainly do that. I think conventional tactics will eventually take him down a peg if you're varied enough.

But, let him have his fun. You don't need to prove a point, just gradually include encounters where he happens to have a hard time.


The build can be done with every race and it looks correct. Do the other players have access to similar powerful races ?

Dim light or darker will be his favoured fighting condition (for Hellcat stealth and shadow blending). With Hellcat Stealth, Scouts Charge or Skirmisher he can do one sneak attack per round , more with flanking , imp. invis etc. but is defense is lower. Constructs and undead are immune to most of his damage.

Besides the race i dont see a problem with this character. Hit him fast and hard in a daylight situation.

Liberty's Edge

For the record, we are playing Carrion Crown, 4th book.

Liberty's Edge

Any suggestions for creatures that are immune to Non-Lethal damage AND are not undead?


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I agree that he won't be a problem...

Your friends are undead, outsiders, constructs and swarms, but remember to let him shine.

Give him missions where he can sneak in, Sap some poor bastard, and sneak out. Let him play social scenarios trying to put the blame on someone else, a d then throw in an encounter where he will be useless...


Kalraan wrote:

I think I'm intimidated by the fact that he has such a high stealth that no-one will see him coming at them, which means that Sneak Damage will always apply. Hitting with 4 attacks in a round, that's a minimum of 88 points of damage with a full attack.

Do you run a homebrew with mostly humanoids?

There are lots of creatures with special senses who will not necessarily be fooled by illusions. You have a good pick of them at 10th level, too (presuming a boss might be up to CR 13-14).

Again, make sure you're not stuck in a rut. That can make one-trick-pony builds seem far more powerful than they actually are.

Liberty's Edge

Also, what is the ruling on Sneak attack damage when he is hidden. When he comes out, is all attacks deemed to be flat footed or just the first one?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unless he has flanking, it's just the first one.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I would really let it play out and see, rather than snuff out a problem that may turn out not to exist.

If he does take down a lot of enemies with nonlethal damage, here's a few things to take in mind: nonlethal damage heals easily. If they're in a situation where they do not have time to tie up or coup de grace an unconscious opponent, these guys can come back--in force, with extra backup. Time encounters such that they may not be able to take advantage of a quickly fallen opponent--make something else happen right then that they have to deal with. Returning enemies will know to have things like armor of fortification as well.

Creatures immune to sneak attack: incorporeal creatures, elementals, oozes. Most of his nonlethal damage dealing ability is tied to his sneak attack, so you cut off his sneak attack, then he can't use stuff like Sap Master. Also, people with Improved Uncanny Dodge 4 levels higher than he is will be immune from sneak attacks due to flanking.

At the same time, don't attack him with only these things -- he should be able to get off his "awesome" attacks sometimes, but I really doubt he will as often as he might hope. But he should have opportunities to shine just like everyone else.

It could also end up that he isn't as good at setting up sneak attacks as he should be to make this build really work. Like I said I really think you should wait and see rather than borrow trouble.

Kalraan wrote:
Also, what is the ruling on Sneak attack damage when he is hidden. When he comes out, is all attacks deemed to be flat footed or just the first one?

*sigh* "Sneak attack" really needs a new name (the sigh is at the wish for terminology, not at you).

Sneak attacks can happen in one of two circumstances ONLY:
- 1. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to armor class. This can include when the target is flat footed, the attacker is invisible, and so on.

- 2.The target is being flanked by the attacker.

The ONLY time Stealth is relevant AT ALL is if the attacker uses Stealth to initiate a surprise round and attacks an unaware opponent, because in this case, the target is flat-footed. The Stealth enables the situation, but it is still the fact that the opponent is flat-footed that is what allows the sneak attack to go off. Otherwise, hiding has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sneak attack.

So yes, that first attack, if the surprised target is flat-footed, he takes sneak attack damage. If the attacker can somehow get off more than one attack during that round, then all of those attacks deal sneak attack damage (because the target remains flat-footed).

If the target survives that attack to the point that he is able to take an action, the target is no longer flat-footed REGARDLESS of the rogue's Stealth, and he cannot be sneak attacked again unless he is flanked or loses his Dexterity bonus to AC again.


Kalraan wrote:
Also, what is the ruling on Sneak attack damage when he is hidden. When he comes out, is all attacks deemed to be flat footed or just the first one?

All are sneak attacks.

Kalraan, you have BNS: Big Number Syndrome.

At 10th level, a party fighter or barbarian should be doing more than taht in 1 round.

And if combats are lasting 10 rounds... usually it's over in 3-5.

Also, not that's I've read the AP, but:

Kalraan wrote:
For the record, we are playing Carrion Crown, 4th book.

I'm SURE you can find creatures in that AP that will laugh at non-lethal damage.

Here's a list of creature types immune to critical hits & sneak attack


Only the first attack is a sneak attack, he will likely be looking for flanking so he can full attack with sneak attacks. Also be sure to note any NPCs that have uncanny dodge as they don't grant him a sneak attack from his stealth.

Creatures immune to nonlethal damage: undead, constructs

Elementals, oozes, and incorporeal are immune to sneak attack and swarms are immune to weapon damage

There are plenty of options that will ensure he doesn't auto win every encounter.


I'm not sure Sap Master activates with the Scout's abilities(couldn't find any ruling on it, it could be good, but they don't say "is considered flat-footed", but that might be the intended meaning)

Skirmisher only grants one SA, Scout's Charge is less clear(says "attack", singular - which I think is the intended usage). So full attack SA TWF should still have a better damage output(which it usually has)

It looks like a neat build on top of a powerful race. And with that number of feats, weapon enhancements and class abilities all aimed at improving one trick - you're supposed to have one awesome trick. His is non-lethal damage.


That is the problem : There is no 'hidden' condition and rules. We have stealth rules , light conditions, concealment and invisibility.

Stealth wrote:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
The stealth rules itself are not very clear and the usage is limited due to light conditions and ..
Quote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.

Hellcat Stealth and other feats/abilities extend the useage of stealth. Invisibility has his own rules but is very similar to Stealth without the light condition limitation.

So again .. your rogue will have only one sneak per round with HellCat Stealth or Skirmisher, more with flanking or imp. invis.


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Not sure why there needs to be a hidden condition. It has been clarified that if you successfully stealth(requires cover or concealment) you are treated as if you had total concealment and your target loses their dexterity bonus to AC

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Kalraan wrote:
For the record, we are playing Carrion Crown, 4th book.

Spoiler:
4th book he will shine against all the living things. 5th book on he will be sucking against the endless hordes of undead.

Short version of the correct answer for sneak attack is:

a) if the opponent's flat-footed, (surprise round or first round of combat if the bad guy hasn't had a turn yet), then they're all sneak attacks

b) if you stealth in later rounds of combat, only the first attack is a sneak attack, unless there's something else granting you sneak like a flank or stunned opponent

Sovereign Court

Spoiler:
+1 Charlie Bell's spoiler. That build is going to be crazy bad for the end of carrion crown.

Considering what a grinder AP that is for the party of not all Paladins it shouldn't cause too much trouble. Remember that nonlethal damage can roll over into lethal damage and that his feats are more specific then the description in that list you've got and you should be just fine.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

spoiler:
someone is about to meet the wood chipper and or madness

Dark Archive

It's a typical glass cannon; heavy on offense, good at hiding (and staying hidden)... but if things don't have sight / are immune to his trick, well he's dead. If he faces primarily foes that don't have special abilities to ignore his concealment (scent / blindsense), are not immune to his attack (constructs / undead / oozes / plants / vermin / elementals), then he's going to do VERY well (lots of damage, sickening effects, etc). Have things fly; what can he do?

It may be the campaign setting; but let him do his trick and feel special. Have the occasional wizard get smart and throw a web or other AE in his vicinity, then catch him.

For his part he seems to have taken the worst class in the game and has done a good job at making it campaign-specifically very good. I don't think this is a bad thing; there are plenty of less vulnerable "game breakers" out there.


DeathQuaker wrote:

So yes, that first attack, if the surprised target is flat-footed, he takes sneak attack damage. If the attacker can somehow get off more than one attack during that round, then all of those attacks deal sneak attack damage (because the target remains flat-footed).

If the target survives that attack to the point that he is able to take an action, the target is no longer flat-footed REGARDLESS of the rogue's Stealth, and he cannot be sneak attacked again unless he is flanked or loses his Dexterity bonus to AC again.

This is spot on. He will get one sneak attack hit from a surprise round if the target is surprised. If he then beats the targets initiative he will get a full attack routine of sneak attacks due to the target still being flat footed.

If the target can act in the surprise round then he will only get a single sneak attack hit and then only if he manages to go before the target.

Looking at the sheet the thing that absolutely leaps out is his terrible Fortitude and Will saves. Anything targeting them is likely to give him problems.

He also seems to have no method at all to Fly and his only ranged attack does 1d4 damage. For level 10 that is just embarrassing.

he also seems to lack any means of negating the miss chance effect on sneak attack. Shadow Strike is pretty much a mandatory Rogue feat tax. Without it a simple Obscuring Mist spell is removing all of his sneak attack dice.


ups!!
he can´t make sneaks with a mace!


There's always the good old-fashioned ooze as well.


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Juda de Kerioth wrote:

ups!!

he can´t make sneaks with a mace!

The world has moved on since 1e/2e, he certainly can sneak attack with a mace.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kalraan wrote:

I think I'm intimidated by the fact that he has such a high stealth that no-one will see him coming at them, which means that Sneak Damage will always apply. Hitting with 4 attacks in a round, that's a minimum of 88 points of damage with a full attack.

Combat just dropped to seconds rather than the old days of lasting 10 rounds.

Um, dude. I don't want to discourage you, but that automatically happens after level 10, with all combat classes.

Also, in the surprise round you only get to do one standard action, after that it is normal initiative for everyone, the rogue included.


All you need to do I apologize in advance and tell him you shouldn't have allowed access to Hellcat Stealth. Done. It's really quite too good of a feat as well as Dampen Presence, which you shouldn't let him have either.

Silver Crusade

andreww wrote:
Juda de Kerioth wrote:

ups!!

he can´t make sneaks with a mace!
The world has moved on since 1e/2e, he certainly can sneak attack with a mace.

He can make sneak attacks with a ballista...


FallofCamelot wrote:
andreww wrote:
Juda de Kerioth wrote:

ups!!

he can´t make sneaks with a mace!
The world has moved on since 1e/2e, he certainly can sneak attack with a mace.
He can make sneak attacks with a ballista...

You're going to attack him with a siege weapon?! There has got to be a rule against this...

(Sorry, couldn't resist the reference.)

Make sure to remember that you can have your monsters prepare actions, so that they can react to the stealther once he finishes his attack. He might pop out and bop one of them on the head, but that might be the opportunity for someone else to hit him or cast a spell to ruin his day. Also, anything that will remove shadows from the area (leaving only whatever cover might exist) will help spice up a few fights. Pretty hard to hide when everything is lit up like it is noon.

Lantern Lodge

Let it play out, it sounds like it will be very fun and not universally applicable.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Kalraan wrote:
Also, what is the ruling on Sneak attack damage when he is hidden. When he comes out, is all attacks deemed to be flat footed or just the first one?

All are sneak attacks.

Kalraan, you have BNS: Big Number Syndrome.

At 10th level, a party fighter or barbarian should be doing more than taht in 1 round.

And if combats are lasting 10 rounds... usually it's over in 3-5.

Also, not that's I've read the AP, but:

Kalraan wrote:
For the record, we are playing Carrion Crown, 4th book.

I'm SURE you can find creatures in that AP that will laugh at non-lethal damage.

Here's a list of creature types immune to critical hits & sneak attack

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but he said MINIMUM damage of 88, didn't he?


Kalraan wrote:

Hi All,

Recently in my campaign one of the heroes passed, and was replaced by another. I normally replace characters at the same level and with the equipment for a character of that level.

I am beginning to regret that decision.

This is what my player brought to the table and I think it just broken my game:

sarasan
Male Fetchling Rogue (Scout, Thug) 10
CN Medium Outsider (native)
Hero Points 1
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 19, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 53 (10d8)
Fort +5, Ref +17, Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion, shadow blending; Resist cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 Merciful Light mace +15/+10 (1d6+1d6 non-lethal +5d6 +10+5d6/x2) and
. . +1 Merciful Light mace +15/+10 (1d6+1d6 non-lethal +5d6+10+5d6/x2) and
. . +2 Bone Dagger +17/+12 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +15/+10 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +15/+10 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +15/+10 (1d3-1/x2)
Ranged Hand crossbow +15/+10 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Hand crossbow +15/+10 (1d4/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities Memory Lapse (1/day), Shadow Walk (1/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 9, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 25
Feats Enforcer, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Skill Focus (Stealth), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Light mace)
Traits Bully, Chance Savior, Dominator (Belkzen)
Skills Acrobatics +21 (+26 to jump, +25 jump), Appraise +5, Bluff +15, Climb +3, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +12, Disguise +9, Escape Artist +12,...

I've broken a game as a rogue, feels good man.


I Hate Nickelback wrote:
I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but he said MINIMUM damage of 88, didn't he?

He did, but that has nothing to do with what karg said.

The guy has a glass cannon who has to get a non-lethal sneak attack off against flat footed on all of his hits in order to do that. Don't know why its minimum 88, not willing to do the math myself. The name Carrion Crown infers that the game may not be friendly to that gig anyway. 10 con and 24 AC may not last long.

The title is kind of misleading, a rogue didn't break any game. Just someone worrying about a sap master going nuts, which isn't out of the ordinary.


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His Fortitude and Will saves are pathetic. Use the occasional "see it and freeze" monster so they don't even need to be able to see him.

I used to kill rogue PCs all the time when running 3.x, without even trying, mainly due to their weak defenses. That one didn't have Hide in Plain Sight, so fighter-types could kill him easily, but this guy is incredibly weak against magic.


Also, since he's using Sap Master remeber that it requires creature to be flat-footed. Flat-footed does not equal denied dexterity. Flat footed is something more than just denied dex. Flat footed normally only occurs on the first round of combat, meaning this tactic only works on the first round of combat. There is a feat chain that will allow him to cause the flat-footed condition, but it also requires a 3 feat investment (IIRC) for it to be usable.

Edit: See this thread and this thread for advice on the same problem you're noticing. In truth it isn't really a problem. Especially with the PCs build. He can only use Sap Master once per comabt on the first round assuming he goes before the enemy. Otherwise they wont be flat-footed against him.

Double Edit: Just noticed he has scout charge from the Scout Archetype, but remember he will only get one attack on that charge, and only one sneak attack from it. Though it seems Sap Master would apply on that attack. Remember however, he can't charge a creature that is already within 10ft of him, and he can't charge and stealth in the same round.


I Hate Nickelback wrote:
darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Kalraan wrote:
Also, what is the ruling on Sneak attack damage when he is hidden. When he comes out, is all attacks deemed to be flat footed or just the first one?

All are sneak attacks.

Kalraan, you have BNS: Big Number Syndrome.

At 10th level, a party fighter or barbarian should be doing more than taht in 1 round.

And if combats are lasting 10 rounds... usually it's over in 3-5.

Also, not that's I've read the AP, but:

Kalraan wrote:
For the record, we are playing Carrion Crown, 4th book.

I'm SURE you can find creatures in that AP that will laugh at non-lethal damage.

Here's a list of creature types immune to critical hits & sneak attack

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but he said MINIMUM damage of 88, didn't he?

For the record, if all 4 of his Light Mace attacks hit, he'll deal 208 points of damage on average. That said, his attack bonuses aren't impressive for level 10, so I would expect him to miss with 1 or 2 attacks a round. Still, his damage is impressive for a rogue.

I'm going to agree also that allowing multiple feats from secondary campaign specific books may not be the best idea. I'd take Hellcat Stelath and Dampen Presence away from him, but that's just me.

In his attack routine, you wrote "AND" between each attack - he's not getting more than the 4 attacks (2 with each light mace) in a full round, is he?

EDIT: My 12th level Dragon Disciple has a Strength Score of 32. He hits for about 35 points of damage for two attacks a round. With our bard's haste, inspire courage and great hope, he hits 3 times for about 40 per shot. His defenses are significantly better than this rogue (mines reflex), his attack rolls are better, he's got 150 hit points (instead of 50), and he's got some spells (3rd level only, but still something). I think the real limiting factor here is that he has to catch his opponents flat footed, not just deny their dexterity, in order to get the maximum damage, which is hard to pull off beyond the first round of combat. What is his plan for achieving that?

Lantern Lodge

Claxon wrote:

Also, since he's using Sap Master remeber that it requires creature to be flat-footed. Flat-footed does not equal denied dexterity. Flat footed is something more than just denied dex. Flat footed normally only occurs on the first round of combat, meaning this tactic only works on the first round of combat. There is a feat chain that will allow him to cause the flat-footed condition, but it also requires a 3 feat investment (IIRC) for it to be usable.

Edit: See this thread and this thread for advice on the same problem you're noticing. In truth it isn't really a problem. Especially with the PCs build. He can only use Sap Master once per comabt on the first round assuming he goes before the enemy. Otherwise they wont be flat-footed against him.

Double Edit: Just noticed he has scout charge from the Scout Archetype, but remember he will only get one attack on that charge, and only one sneak attack from it. Though it seems Sap Master would apply on that attack. Remember however, he can't charge a creature that is already within 10ft of him, and he can't charge and stealth in the same round.

Skirmisher adds flexibility to how he may cause the flat footed condition (charge not required)


Deadmoon wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Also, since he's using Sap Master remeber that it requires creature to be flat-footed. Flat-footed does not equal denied dexterity. Flat footed is something more than just denied dex. Flat footed normally only occurs on the first round of combat, meaning this tactic only works on the first round of combat. There is a feat chain that will allow him to cause the flat-footed condition, but it also requires a 3 feat investment (IIRC) for it to be usable.

Edit: See this thread and this thread for advice on the same problem you're noticing. In truth it isn't really a problem. Especially with the PCs build. He can only use Sap Master once per comabt on the first round assuming he goes before the enemy. Otherwise they wont be flat-footed against him.

Double Edit: Just noticed he has scout charge from the Scout Archetype, but remember he will only get one attack on that charge, and only one sneak attack from it. Though it seems Sap Master would apply on that attack. Remember however, he can't charge a creature that is already within 10ft of him, and he can't charge and stealth in the same round.

Skirmisher adds flexibility to how he may cause the flat footed condition (charge not required)

For the first attack made each round, right.

EDIT: Which means the potential 208 average damage I mentioned earlier can only be achieved in the first round of combat (barring another method of making an enemy "flat footed" for more than a single attack) assuming the rogue used his move action during the surprise round to close on the enemy and beat the enemy's initiative roll.


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I dont see what the issue is. An optimized fighter will do around the same damage (and it wont be nonlethal) in a full attack and do it with a higher to hit bonus. How is this breaking your game? Sure he can catch people off guard with stealth, but only if he is alone. The rest of his party is perfectly noticable. So he is either off on his own (and thus ends up dealing with the whole encounter himself for a couple rounds while the party catches up) or the clinking cleric in breast plate blows up his surprise anyway.

Remeber sap master only works when a target is flatfooted, and not on a flanking sneak attack. That only happens for the first attack in a round, and he will have to spend a move action to re-stealth if he wants to do it on subsequent rounds. Sure his opening attack if he wins initiative will be alot, but after that he wont do much. Make sure you dont have any single monster encounters, particularly if they are vulnerable to non-lethal damage, and you wont have a problem.


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Let him play it. Let him shine for a while. Let him get overconfident, then have something immune appear. Something big.

I am running Serpent Skull, and the 10th Level fighter(archer) can dish out 53hp in around 3 arrows, and still have a couple left for the party wizard.


Like a lot of other people have said, in order to use the scout/skirmisher flat footed conditions, he has to move 10+ft, which means a single attack.

Flanking doesn't apply sap master, so you just get the "normal" sneak attack dice.

10(level)+8(dex)+2(race)+3(class)+6(skillfocus) is +29 stealth... not 39. +5 in dim light/darkness. Unless my math is off... or i missed something in his statblock.


Question: Has the player used this character is game yet? By your posts it doesn't seem that he has. Numbers on paper don't translate perfectly to actual play. Let the player use the character for a couple sessions before worrying about it. If he is actually too much, then either make some little tweaks to the game, or talk to him about the problem and let him make some changes to the build. It sucks when one player disrupts a GM's attempts to keep the game fair for everyone.


Kalraan wrote:
Any suggestions for creatures that are immune to Non-Lethal damage AND are not undead?

He can just deactivate the Merciful ability if he runs into such a thing.


MechE_ wrote:
Deadmoon wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Also, since he's using Sap Master remeber that it requires creature to be flat-footed. Flat-footed does not equal denied dexterity. Flat footed is something more than just denied dex. Flat footed normally only occurs on the first round of combat, meaning this tactic only works on the first round of combat. There is a feat chain that will allow him to cause the flat-footed condition, but it also requires a 3 feat investment (IIRC) for it to be usable.

Edit: See this thread and this thread for advice on the same problem you're noticing. In truth it isn't really a problem. Especially with the PCs build. He can only use Sap Master once per comabt on the first round assuming he goes before the enemy. Otherwise they wont be flat-footed against him.

Double Edit: Just noticed he has scout charge from the Scout Archetype, but remember he will only get one attack on that charge, and only one sneak attack from it. Though it seems Sap Master would apply on that attack. Remember however, he can't charge a creature that is already within 10ft of him, and he can't charge and stealth in the same round.

Skirmisher adds flexibility to how he may cause the flat footed condition (charge not required)

For the first attack made each round, right.

EDIT: Which means the potential 208 average damage I mentioned earlier can only be achieved in the first round of combat (barring another method of making an enemy "flat footed" for more than a single attack) assuming the rogue used his move action during the surprise round to close on the enemy and beat the enemy's initiative roll.

He can't even get 208 damage. On the first round of comabt it is presumable he would need to move to his target. That means one attack, and one attack only. No offhand attacks, no iteratives. Just one. Sure, he will get 10d6 worth of non-lethal sneak attack damage on that one attack. That averages out to just 35 damage, with all his other modifiers he'll be at 52 avaerage damage for 1 attack. In subsequent rounds in order to get Sap Master to work he has to move at least 10ft, which means no full attacks either, which means he only gets the 1 attack. If he full attacks, he wont get to use Sap Master because they wont be flat-footed. Then he has to rely on regular Sneak Attack, with all its follies. Unless there is something I have missed?

As long as you're making him follow the rules his rogue isn't going to break anything. Worry about you're Grater Beast Totem Come and Get Me Barbarian that will Charge Pounce and Full Attack every round with power attack and is causing 50 damage per swing and requires zero set up to pull off. He even wants you to attack him because his AoO from Come and Get Me resolves first.


Claxon wrote:
MechE_ wrote:
Deadmoon wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Also, since he's using Sap Master remeber that it requires creature to be flat-footed. Flat-footed does not equal denied dexterity. Flat footed is something more than just denied dex. Flat footed normally only occurs on the first round of combat, meaning this tactic only works on the first round of combat. There is a feat chain that will allow him to cause the flat-footed condition, but it also requires a 3 feat investment (IIRC) for it to be usable.

Edit: See this thread and this thread for advice on the same problem you're noticing. In truth it isn't really a problem. Especially with the PCs build. He can only use Sap Master once per comabt on the first round assuming he goes before the enemy. Otherwise they wont be flat-footed against him.

Double Edit: Just noticed he has scout charge from the Scout Archetype, but remember he will only get one attack on that charge, and only one sneak attack from it. Though it seems Sap Master would apply on that attack. Remember however, he can't charge a creature that is already within 10ft of him, and he can't charge and stealth in the same round.

Skirmisher adds flexibility to how he may cause the flat footed condition (charge not required)

For the first attack made each round, right.

EDIT: Which means the potential 208 average damage I mentioned earlier can only be achieved in the first round of combat (barring another method of making an enemy "flat footed" for more than a single attack) assuming the rogue used his move action during the surprise round to close on the enemy and beat the enemy's initiative roll.

He can't even get 208 damage. On the first round of comabt it is presumable he would need to move to his target. That means one attack, and one attack only. No offhand attacks, no iteratives. Just one. Sure, he will get 10d6 worth...

^Right there. =) If he meets all the conditions I just bolded above, then he gets a full attack against a flat footed opponent. The point of my post was to mention how difficult it was to actually pull that off. It is, however, still possible if all the conditions I mentioned are met.


MechE_ wrote:
^Right there. =) If he meets all the conditions I just bolded above, then he gets a full attack against a flat footed opponent. The point of my post was to mention how difficult it was to actually pull that off. It is, however, still possible if all the conditions I mentioned are met.

My bad, misread your post.

Ultimately, its almost never going to happen. Why? Because PCs should almost never get a suprise round. Normally combatants are waiting for the PCs or hear them coming. If the Rogue ventures out alone they may be able to catch someone by surprise, but that requires the rogue to be alone. If the Rogue is alone fighting an encounter designed for the whole party the rogue will die, even if they manage to kill one individual in one round. Because that 50 piddly little hp at level 10 is not going to do the trick.


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Yep, this is a theorycrafted PC, will do great in a couple encounters, then FAIL. One trick pony, and a glass cannon. Let him have it, but warn him.

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