Infernal Healing material components cost question


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Infernal healing says it has a material component of one "dose" of unholy water or one drop devil's blood.

Is a "dose" of unholy water the same as a vial? In which case this material component costs 25gp.

If so, would a drop of devil's blood have the same cost? It seems that whether it's one or the other they probably should have the same gp cost, though I'm not sure.

However, if that's the case, a scroll of CLW would cost the same as the components of this spell, which makes its value seem dubious, though it does heal more damage in the long run.

Alternately, can you summon a minor devil and then harvest blood from it?

Peet


I think a dose of unholy water would refer to buying a flash of unholy water, which costs 25 gp (since unholy water and holy water are simply the same spell on the opposite spectrum from each other). I dunno the cost of buying a drop of devil's blood though, couldn't find it under the equipment section.

I'm not sure if the minor devil would let you willingly take some of it's blood, but otherwise that might work.

Shadow Lodge

No matter how exotic, if the cost of the material component isn't stated, it is assumed to be negligible.


SCPRedMage wrote:
No matter how exotic, if the cost of the material component isn't stated, it is assumed to be negligible.

^^ This.

I drank Unholy Water once and it was pretty cheap, came in a can with 'Bud Light' written on the side.

Shadow Lodge

This acually has me confused a little becouse every other spell I have seen that has a expensive material component (1gm or more) has the price listed next to the component, This one does not. So I would have to expect its price to be negligable.


Darkenn wrote:
This acually has me confused a little becouse every other spell I have seen that has a expensive material component (1gm or more) has the price listed next to the component, This one does not. So I would have to expect its price to be negligable.

Yeah, that's basically why I brought this up. It has the format of spells that don't have costly components, but it lists a component that has an official listed price.

Maybe 1 "dose" of unholy water is 1/25th of a vial? In which case it would be 1gp total price, which would be reasonable since it falls under the limit for the Eschew Materials feat.

Peet


yep. It's generally assumed that if a price isn't listed, it's negligible. Still, if I were your GM, I'd be tempted to use it as a hook;

"Your character is using unholy water and devil's blood? Where are you getting THAT?! Oh really? There are some paladins in town who would like to have a word with you..."


you don't need either one if you have eschew materials.

Dark Archive

I am sure the Nation of Cheliaxe has found a way to make devil blood widely available. They might even make it cheap to help people see how effective something infernal can be.


I think a "dose" in this case doesn't mean an entire flask.

A flask is about half a liter, and is meant to be thrown as a Splash weapon to deal damage and so, same for the flask of Holy Water.

In this spell you only likely need just a bit to anoint the forehead of the target or something. An actual flask could potentially last you for years for that, and in that case it's just assumed you got a small vial of Unholy Water in your spell component pouch which is enough.

I know it doesn't say that, but it's the one thing that makes sense, otherwise the cost would have been given for the spell.
Also it would be weird to have an either or option with one being trivial (devil's blood) and one being costly


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SCPRedMage wrote:
No matter how exotic, if the cost of the material component isn't stated, it is assumed to be negligible.

What about the transformation spell? Surely purchasing a 2gp component pouch doesn't net me an effectively infinite amount of free bull's strength potions.


Ravingdork wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
No matter how exotic, if the cost of the material component isn't stated, it is assumed to be negligible.
What about the transformation spell? Surely purchasing a 2gp component pouch doesn't net me an effectively infinite amount of free bull's strength potions.

I think since it is calling out a specific item we can deduce that the 'specific trumps general' is in play for that spell. In regards to infernal healing devil's blood is not an item with a listed cost therefore a spell component pouch would suffice. Let's just ignore the part about unholy water.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Robert A Matthews wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
No matter how exotic, if the cost of the material component isn't stated, it is assumed to be negligible.
What about the transformation spell? Surely purchasing a 2gp component pouch doesn't net me an effectively infinite amount of free bull's strength potions.
I think since it is calling out a specific item we can deduce that the 'specific trumps general' is in play for that spell. In regards to infernal healing devil's blood is not an item with a listed cost therefore a spell component pouch would suffice. Let's just ignore the part about unholy water.

How is that not a double standard? You either pay the price for the unholy water AND the potion of bull's strength, or you don't. You're either following the rules, or you're not.

The Exchange

Sorry for the thread necro, but was this question ever answered anywhere?

Personally I assumed that the component was a flask of unholy water (so 25gp cost) unless you happened to have a handy supply of devil's blood (such as if you had an imp familiar or something)... or were using the False Focus Feat or whatever for a cost-bypass. That seemed to make sense to me as the spell breaks one of the 'cardinal unwritten rules' and grants low-level healing to the Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, and Wizard.


Blwargh, foul necromancer!

Devils blood is in your spell component pouch, unless your DM tells you otherwise. Unholy water serves as a potential alternative if for some reason you can't bring your pouch... A flask or skin of water may be easier to bring with you somewhere, for example.

A lot of people take components for granted, but they do matter a little, especially at low levels. My most recent character I had to spend a few minutes with going over her spell list to make sure I didn't need a component pouch, for fluff reasons.

Giving more classes access to HP restoration isn't a bug, it's a feature. It makes the game more fun and doesn't effect combat in this case, while reducing downtime and record keeping. It doesn't need a price tag.

The Exchange

Thanks, KrispyXIV, but I'm aware of the two basic opinions here (it's not a costly component / it is a costly component). What I'm asking is if anyone knows if this has been officially answered anywhere?


ProfPotts wrote:
Thanks, KrispyXIV, but I'm aware of the two basic opinions here (it's not a costly component / it is a costly component). What I'm asking is if anyone knows if this has been officially answered anywhere?

Eh, I'm in disagreement it needs to be. Find me anything to contradict my 'opinion' and I'll be impressed.

The spell lists two components on an either/or basis. One has a cost, the other does not.

Apply all rules as normal as nothing has told you otherwise; if you use Devil Blood, there is no associated cost. If you use Unholy Water, you must pay for it as its an expensive material component whose cost is not reprinted in the spell description (see Transformation example).

Here's a goalpost to set in stone for this; find me a spell in a Core Book that lists an expensive component which is also listed with a cost elsewhere (like unholy water or a potion) and duplicates a gold cost in the spell description. If you can do that, I'll agree it's unclear.

Otherwise it's my opinion this issue is clear as day. Apply rules as normal.


ProfPotts wrote:
Thanks, KrispyXIV, but I'm aware of the two basic opinions here (it's not a costly component / it is a costly component). What I'm asking is if anyone knows if this has been officially answered anywhere?
PRD wrote:
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

No cost are given for the material component, thus the cost is negligible.

Keep in mind, material components without a cost were introduced as jokes. They are meant to be funny, not to be taken seriously.

The Exchange

Again: I understand the opinions...

a) Because two options for components are listed, one which hasn't had a cost listed in Paizo books, it defaults to 'everything is in the pouch'.

b) Because two options for components are listed, one which has had a cost listed in Paizo books, it defaults to that cost.

... just claiming that any opinion not your own isn't valid doesn't help a great deal, to be honest. I'm not saying that either a) or b) is correct... just that it'd be nice to have more input on this one. Does anyone know how PFS rules it, for example? I know PFS is it's own set of 'house rules' but it'd at least shed some light on how some of the Paizo chaps see this as working. We don't get FAQs on non-core books, so I can't imagine it'd ever make it to an official FAQ, but just an indication of the designer's intent would be nice.


ProfPotts wrote:

Again: I understand the opinions...

a) Because two options for components are listed, one which hasn't had a cost listed in Paizo books, it defaults to 'everything is in the pouch'.

b) Because two options for components are listed, one which has had a cost listed in Paizo books, it defaults to that cost.

... just claiming that any opinion not your own isn't valid doesn't help a great deal, to be honest

Try c) It doesn't default to either component, they are both equally valid, apply rules normally based on which is being used as determined by the character and situation.

I'm not saying opinions other than mine are wrong, I'm saying my interpretation is supported by the rules and I'd like to see rules support from the opposing viewpoint before I admit there may be something to their argument.

There is kindof a bizarre argument that if the cost isn't listed in the spell description it's free even if it has a cost elsewhere (see Transformation), but I think that definitely falls under not duplicating information.

It's also not relevant for Infernal Healing. No cost is listed anywhere for Devil Blood, therefore it's in your pouch. No ambiguity at all.


RAW is quite clear. The spell lists one material component, a drop of devil's blood. That is a material component that has no price, therefor it is included in a spell component pouch. The other material component is a "dose of unholy water". It still lists no price on it and as we don't have any RAW indication of how much a "dose" is we can't list a price for it. The spell is inexpensive to cast. If you want to claim otherwise then show the rules quote!

RAI is another matter entirely. You could easily argue that it is supposed to cost 25 gp in material components either way but you can also easily argue that the "dose of unholy water" isn't a standard measurement and could easily be below negligible cost.

It would indeed be wonderful to get a dev's thoughts on this.

Personally speaking I'm going with the inexpensive option because otherwise it is too expensive. You want out of combat healing without a caster that can normally cast healing spells? Buy a wand of cure light wounds and UMD it. Let's compare the two options:

Infernal healing is 10 hp/casting.
Wand of cure lights is an average of 275 healing (5.5/cast * 50 charges).
Infernal healing cast enough times to match a full wand of cure light wounds will cost (27.5 * 25) = 687.5 gp (assuming that it has a 25 gp cost).
Wand of cure light wounds costs 750 gp... This means Infernal healing has saved you 62.5 gp... But the wand cost you no spells slots while infernal healing cost you 27.5 first level spell slots. Also infernal healing carries a big stigma (the evil part).

All in all... If infernal healing costs 25 gp per cast then I choose wand of cure light over it 100% of the time. If Infernal healing has no cost (outside a material component pouch) then I use it in conjunction with the cure light wounds wand, because I don't want to spend spell slots on healing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This said, a DM could rule that you need to at least posit a source for this devil's blood. It sounds far less routine than most other spell components.

I agree that keeping track of material components is annoying and fastidious, almost as much as keeping track of the weight of all your gear. But requiring devil's blood is too sweet a plot hook for this DM to pass up. <g>


Wheldrake wrote:

This said, a DM could rule that you need to at least posit a source for this devil's blood. It sounds far less routine than most other spell components.

I agree that keeping track of material components is annoying and fastidious, almost as much as keeping track of the weight of all your gear. But requiring devil's blood is too sweet a plot hook for this DM to pass up. <g>

Ugh, definitely disagree here. To me, it's no more reasonable than requiring the player to posit the source of all that bat guano.

At least someone can bargain with an imp for some blood... Or a less scrupulous wizard could use Planar Binding to Call one, knock it out, and drain it for the duration of the spell.

The key is, someone is out there mucking up bat-crap, and someone is out there bottling devil blood. Both seem equally out of the adventuring spectrum to me.

/opinion


KrispyXIV wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:

This said, a DM could rule that you need to at least posit a source for this devil's blood. It sounds far less routine than most other spell components.

I agree that keeping track of material components is annoying and fastidious, almost as much as keeping track of the weight of all your gear. But requiring devil's blood is too sweet a plot hook for this DM to pass up. <g>

Ugh, definitely disagree here. To me, it's no more reasonable than requiring the player to posit the source of all that bat guano.

At least someone can bargain with an imp for some blood... Or a less scrupulous wizard could use Planar Binding to Call one, knock it out, and drain it for the duration of the spell.

The key is, someone is out there mucking up bat-crap, and someone is out there bottling devil blood. Both seem equally out of the adventuring spectrum to me.

/opinion

Fully agree!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Of course, you're right, RAW-wise.

This said, bat guano ought to be available in any dungeon or cave. Could get it by trading moldy cheese to goblins. I suppose since any wizard or sorceror with an imp familiar could mine devil's blood, on a semi-infinite basis, and sell it for 1 GP or summat. Isn't that an improved familiar though? Would blood from a diabolical summoned creature count, or would its blood disappear as the spell expires? Planar binding perhaps? But what would you have to trade for a few vials?

Come now, inquiring minds want to know.

IMHO not having a cost assigned to devil's blood is an oversight. <g>


Seems simple. Both 'dose' of unholy water and devil blood don't have a listed price and as such cost nothing. If there was a cost, both RAW and RAI would require a listed cost or requiring something that does.

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
Seems simple. Both 'dose' of unholy water and devil blood don't have a listed price and as such cost nothing. If there was a cost, both RAW and RAI would require a listed cost or requiring something that does.

I would treat it like smelling salts. Each vial has 'dozens' of uses for this purpose.

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