Blood Money + Masterwork Transformation


Advice


Ok, so I just got done with a session and our sorcerer seems to be using the above combo (blood money + masterwork transformation) to make mundane items, into masterwork items without having to pay money, then selling them off for a bunch of gold. Then of course using said gold to buy or create magic items whenever he likes (primarily having other wizards make pages of spell knowledge for him).

We are doing the kingmaker game. So he has plenty of time to accumulate his own personal wealth and power. I understand the fun of having power, but not being him on the sidelines, eventually we'll get to the point where it's just him playing by himself against all of our encounters, decreasing the fun.

Is this legal? If it is I guess it's just a personal gripe more than anything.


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It's legal by the RAW. Blood Money has a lot of problems. I ban it, personally, and pity GMs that don't.


Yes its probably legal. However you dont have to keep using it. Its a house game and your the GM.

In a game with infinite choices like pen and paper has... especially in a sandbox game like Kingmaker... there will be exploitable loopholes. Its unavoidable. Thats why there is a GM. You can ban anything that was missed.


Sadly I'm not the GM. Sorry I didn't mention that. I'm just a disgruntled player. Honestly I play a wizard, so I could technically do the same thing. However, it just feels cheap to me.


Then go this route, bring it up that it seems like an exploit, but if the group/GM says it's ok, get it going yourself and double up on the mad gold.

I'm pretty sure after a single encounter with double WBL... either the GM or the rest of the group will take a step back and agree with you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber

This is legal, as far as rules go.

You could bring it up with your GM, or with the other player? That's the best advice I can give you.

If you bring it up with your GM, he or she can do a lot to curb the excesses. Ask about who exactly he's selling these masterwork items to? A GM can make a market flood if he likes. Maybe suggest people stop buying the characters items once he reaches a certain percentage above expected WBL.

If you bring it up with the player, let them know that their cheap spell combo is cutting into your fun, and ask if they'd consider retiring the strategy.


I think bringing it up to my GM will be best then. I've spoken to the other player about other things before and he can be quite stubborn. Always aiming to be all powerful.

I'll probably go the economy route as an argument if the GM isn't sure. After all, after a market flooded with masterwork weapons won't need more of them.

I am tempted to go the same route, but I won't be able to do that unless I get some scrolls or until a couple levels in the future.

Thanks for the advice everyone.


Why bring it up with your GM? You're in the party, just benefit from it.

Amass a massive amount of money and get decked out in crazy armor.

Also if anything the problem here isn't blood money, it's spells like masterwork transformation and fabricate.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Why bring it up with your GM? You're in the party, just benefit from it.

Amass a massive amount of money and get decked out in crazy armor.

Presumably because the douchebag abusing it isn't sharing the money he's making--if he was, there'd be no fear of him taking over the encounters.

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:
Also if anything the problem here isn't blood money, it's spells like masterwork transformation and fabricate.

Masterwork transformation solves a very real problem. Many players want to start the game using, say, their father's sword or some other specific weapon they wrote into their backstories. But a first level character can't afford a masterwork weapon. So, some levels go by and, to put it simply, they are left with the choice of abandoning their storied weapon for an enchanted one they find later, or sucking, harder and harder as the game goes on.

Masterwork Transformation allows you to improve on a weapon that means something to your character. It's pretty important that it exists.

On the surface, it works perfectly fine. 300 gold goes in, something worth 300 gold comes out. Very simple, very fair. It's just a story-enabling spell, nothing more.

Blood Money literally makes money, though--that's the issue. With Blood Money, nothing goes in, but something worth 300 gold still comes out. No, Blood Money is definitely the problem.

I won't deny that Fabricate is problematic, though.


Hmm. I get the father's sword thing, but aren't masterwork weapons made masterwork via a "Masterwork Component" and thus you could add one two an existing item? If not, I'd see that as the problem.

Also that player is obviously a dickish idiot, too. Everyone knows that PC parties operate as communist units, we're all in it together and we share everything.

Everything.

He's essentially not using his spells for the benefit of the party, which every other caster would do for him. Talk to the DM to make the player pay up, because that's just plain dumb.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Have you spoken to the GM about how this is stuffing up your enjoyment of the campaign?

Ah, I've read upthread.

If the GM needs an in-game reason to drop the hammer, the local guilds (in whichever market he's flooding with cheap masterwork goods) will be very angry about this disruption to their cashflow.

Send in the Ninja...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Is this set in Golarion?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is this set in Golarion?

I believe so, it's kingmaker and thus a paizo campaign. Although I can't say I'm 100% certain as I haven't quite kept up with locals in the pathfinder worlds. Places such as Brevoy are mentioned however.

The player is agains sharing the overall money outright, instead he would prefer he gets a share of what he makes and the rest goes into our kingdoms BP (build points). So, the kingdom benefits in a way, he just benefits more directly.

In any case, I shall bring it up to my GM as I had said above. If he's still fine with it, then I guess either I try talking to the player (even though I know deep down he won't want to stop) or I acquire the spells myself and make sure at least I'm not left behind in "power".


If it's kingmaker, couldn't the player who's character is the monarch simply levy a hefty tax on that player's business practices?

Could distribute the wealth more evenly then.


I think the problem with Blood Money is that anything it would be ok to use on, it would also be ok for the spell to not have a gold cost.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Aspis Consortium would likely send agents to investigate.

They are basically the fantasy version of the East India Trading Company, which is like a supervillain group, that just happened to actually exist.

Check out the Campaign Setting and Faction Guide if you want to make them more present in the campaign.


I have a suggestion that is well within the rules and fair. In Ultimate Campaign, it has the downtime system and talks about craft and selling items (specifically magic items) as a business. For that, it has the player make the Craft or Profession roll for making a living, earning half of what he rolls as gold for that week. It basically means that just because you can supply the items doesn't mean that there is a demand or even people capable of buying it outright. And to increase the Craft score, he can buy rooms and materials that help him make even more money.

So I'd suggest explaining the situation to both the player and the GM and how you feel about it and presenting him with the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign about it as a good compromise so that he can still make money, but not completely bring him over WBL. Also, if you don't have Ultimate Campaign, it's on the PFSRD here.

I hope this helps! Happy gaming!


Remind your GM that Blood Money only lasts for the round it's cast in, and the components return to blood if they aren't spent in the same round. Masterwork Transformation has a casting time of one hour. So unless he has some way of keeping Blood Money active for a whole hour, he can't use it.


Ashram, that's been mentioned before. As I recall, the devs say that it's legit so long as you start casting in the same round.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
Ashram, that's been mentioned before. As I recall, the devs say that it's legit so long as you start casting in the same round.

Any source on that? Not that I doubt you, but that seems kinda sketchy.


Ashram wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Ashram, that's been mentioned before. As I recall, the devs say that it's legit so long as you start casting in the same round.
Any source on that? Not that I doubt you, but that seems kinda sketchy.

I've seen the quote. It says you can treat it either way as long as it is consistent, with a lean towards not allowing it for spells with long casting times.

That said, "cast" can be used both to signify the beginning of casting, the end, or the entire process. Blood Money itself is not remotely clear on this matter.

But hey, once you get to 5th level spells you can use Blood Money just to make money out of nothing with Fabricate! Not that there aren't plenty of other crazy uses like that.

The spell should really just be tossed out. Anything it is fine to use with can actually just have the gold cost completely removed.

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