TWF sword-and-board rogue?


Advice


While I know that rogues aren't the most optimal class available, I still enjoy playing them. However, I've grown to dislike two-weapon fighting (as it is the only optimal build for them; although I'd be happy if someone could prove me wrong).

So I was wondering if it was possible to mix it up. Would it be viable to make a TWF sword-and-board rogue? I understand that there are a few factors going in that make it distasteful such as the lack of shield proficiency, as well as the ACP applying to attack rolls when using the weapon finesse feat. There are ways around these and I was wondering if there was a way of viably putting it all together.

Thanks.

Note: I would also like to avoid multiclassing as much as possible.
Edit: Specified TWF sword-and-board.


Do you mean a rogue who is shield bashing, or a rogue who just happens to have a shield strapped to his arm for the AC?


Strannik wrote:
Do you mean a rogue who is shield bashing, or a rogue who just happens to have a shield strapped to his arm for the AC?

Shield-bashing.


Oh dear...

A sword and board fighter is very feat intensive, especially since you would have to burn one just to use a shield...so you're going to have a very difficult time fitting in all those feats and still get to do the things rogues typically do. You're basically still two weapon fighting, but now one of the weapons is the shield. You'd have to make a strength based rogue and not get weapon finesse.

There are guides for sword and board fighters. I would suggest looking at one of those and trying to alter it for a rogue...but I can't say I'm excited about the finished product.

I have had success w/ rogues that only use one weapon, so I think I would suggest considering that option as well.


I recomend two levels of fighter cause the TWF/shield bash is really feat intensive. Afther that add the rogue level and all shoudl be fine.


Oops! You are TWF, you can't focus on strength too much or you can't get the best TWF feats! So, I guess you might want to go weapon finesse after all...feats are going to dry up faster than I thought...


Resentment wrote:
(as it is the only optimal build for them; although I'd be happy if someone could prove me wrong).

This depends on if its still a rogue if you loose trap finding ;)

If it is then i call this the Brute Rogue

Race: Orc
Class: Rouge (Scout/Thug) 7
Level: 7th

STR: 17 (+1 @ 4th Level)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Feats:
1st Level: Medium Armor Prof
2nd Talen: Offensive Defense
3rd Level: Power Attack
4th Talen: Combat Trick(Furious Focus)
5th Level: Intimidating Prowess
6th Talen: Weapon Training (Greataxe)
7th Level: Cornugon Smash

Equipment
Belt of Thunderous Charging 10000 gc
Rino Hide 5165 gc
+ 1 Greataxe 2050 gc

On a charge this build deals good damage the target is sickened and maybe shaken or with some luck frightened and flee. If it does rise and repeate ;)

Breiti


Take a two level fighter dip. Wear Mithril BP. With Armor Mastery trait you should have 0 armor penalties and a good AC. You can then afford to put strength instead of dex since you will have a better AC and not have to rely on Weapon Finesse.

Since your going to use a shield weapon finesse would only help you with your main weapon (where as with TWF identical weapons you could use it on both) so I say ditch it totally, pump your Str more.

TWF sword and board is even more feat intensive than regular TWF. I would suggest doing a 50/50 mix of rogue and fighter. Yes you will have fewer sneak attack dice in the long run but you will still have a nice amount of feets for the sword and board TWFing, great skills, all the critical rogue skills to do your job and better overall combat ability since you will not HAVE to rely on sneak attack to do all your damage.

And when you do get sneak attack you will be that much ahead. I'd say start with 2 levels of rogue and alternate 2 levels of fighter.


Gilfalas wrote:

Since your going to use a shield weapon finesse would only help you with your main weapon (where as with TWF identical weapons you could use it on both).

This is not true, Weapon finesse work with all ligth weapons like a light shield.

Shadow Lodge

That looks like an awesome build, Breiti. Mind if I make one minor suggestion though? if you don't, read the spoiler.

suggestion:
Instead of Rhino's hide armor, you could spend that gold on enchanted four mirror armor. You could get +2 4-mirror, +1 light fortification, or, if you like stealth, +1 shadow armor. This would raise your AC to 18-19 instead of what it currently is. You do sacrifice 2d6 damage, but if your GM will allow you to add it as an enchantment, you could get it for 1,050 gold on your armor and could still get +2 4-mirror with it and can have higher AC. Four mirror is listed because it is the cheapest +6 armor you can get. You do take higher penalties, but thought this might be a good suggestion.
Finessing a light shield with TWF might be nice, may I suggest the [url=http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Klar[/url]? It counts as a light wooden or steel shield with armor spikes according to the ultimate equipment, and does a d6 damage.

Scarab Sages

Also you could two weapon fight with armor spikes which are compatible with weapon finesse and save the shield proficiency feat on your way to get improved shield bash, by getting a dark wood heavy shield. Better AC from the heavy shield and all your weapons are still dex based. I might use half elf to get the prof to pick up low light and some nifty extras too since you will already be skill heavy.

Scarab Sages

Also a lot of the feats you need for the build are rogue talents /ninja tricks so I don't see the multi class as necessarily superior if single class rogue is preferable to you.


Frankly I don't see this working.

I think the only way you'll get it to work is to grab a level or two of ranger first so you can get shield proficiency right away without blowing a feat.


Alright, so as it stands it seems that the build would be too feat intensive for a pure rogue build. Darn. I do appreciate all the suggestions.

Assuming that the right balance was found between fighter and rogue (with more focus to the rogue) would the build be completely worse than a standard TWFing rogue and a sword-and-board ranger or fighter? Because the concept aside from having a bit of diversity would be focusing on sneak attacks for damage as well as being fairly harder to hit.

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is assuming this build was achievable, would it even be worth it?


Strannik wrote:
I have had success w/ rogues that only use one weapon, so I think I would suggest considering that option as well.

Did you use a spring attack build? I'd be interested in hearing what you've done with a single-weapon rogue.

Breiti wrote:

This depends on if its still a rogue if you loose trap finding ;)
If it is then i call this the Brute Rogue

I have heard of the brute rogue, though I haven't tried it for myself. Unfortunately, I do like the idea of keeping trapfinding on my rogue as it seems like the only redeeming factor of being a rogue (and even then, some classes do it better).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What about Board-and-Board?

Two Agile Light Shields.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
That looks like an awesome build, Breiti. Mind if I make one minor suggestion though? if you don't, read the spoiler.** spoiler omitted **Finessing a light shield with TWF might be nice, may I suggest the [url=http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Klar[/url]? It counts as a light wooden or steel shield with armor spikes according to the ultimate equipment, and does a d6 damage.

The armor would work but i picture more like savage rowdy so the rhino hides fits this thema. The defense is not realy the problem adding sneak attack dice as dodge bonus once the charge hits is nice and the penalties on your target give this build a virtual +4 to AC against single enemies.

The poster asked about a rogue build so i changed this on the fly. My plan for this build would be Rouge (Scout/Thug) 4/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) X. This way if chaging is not an option i can drink in invis extract. The mutagen and extracts could push my AC to a level that it does not hurt to much ;)

Breiti

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Also, there is the Freebooter/Trapper Ranger option.

Be a better Rogue.


Resentment wrote:
I have heard of the brute rogue, though I haven't tried it for myself. Unfortunately, I do like the idea of keeping trapfinding on my rogue as it seems like the only redeeming factor of being a rogue (and even then, some classes do it better).

Is it only the trap finding? Some people altough dislike the idear of sneak attack with a big axe ;) If this is not the case the the build could work without the Thug/intimidate part...

What about multiclassing has the build you are looking for to be pure rogue?

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