Elven Curved Blades


Advice

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Grand Lodge

I've recently overheard a conversation from my last Society game in regards to E.C.B's being optimal for dex classes. Do I have to take a size lower in order to two-weapon fight with it? It's a shame I'm not a part of my Venture Captain's inner circle on non-game days or I wouldn't have to be posting these kinds of things here. Oh, and before I forget. This is a rogue.


1. You don't want to use two-weapon fighting with a rogue. It's a subpar choice.

2. If you don't care about #1, (which I doubt, because the word "optimal" is in your first sentence) then a Curve Blade is fine in one hand, you'll need to have a light weapon in your off hand.

3. You'll absolutely need to get the Agile enchantment on your curve blade, that's the part that makes it work so well.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
awp832 wrote:
1. You don't want to use two-weapon fighting with a rogue. It's a subpar choice.

Not really. If you crunch the numbers for -2/-2 vs 2 additional Attacks and 2 additional applications of Sneak Attack it works just fine. Add Agile to that and it's even better.

But the curve-blade is not optimal. You'll be taking size penalties for it being the wrong size, and weapon focus, or any weapon specific feats will not work if you use a different weapon in your offhand. If you want "dex optimization", use two shortswords, two kukris, or two wakizashis (if you're prepared to burn the feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency). All three will work with weapon finesse and agile weapon property.


sort of. I mean it's not just the damage. He's going to have to invest in weapon finesse, and a rather large two-weapon fighting chain just to be able to do what he wants. Rogues dont have a ton of feats floating around, he's going to end up spending a large amount of them on TWF, which only applies if he's making full attacks. And rouges are often mobility-focused characters. If the monster is standing right in front of your rogue, probably rather than just taking a 5ft step toward him and making a full attack, you're going to tumble around and flank, which means your TWF feats arent doing you any good for the round. This will probably happen quite a bit.

So if you wanted to up your damage output instead of TWF, you could take piranha strike, for example.


Abadar wrote:
awp832 wrote:
1. You don't want to use two-weapon fighting with a rogue. It's a subpar choice.
Not really. If you crunch the numbers for -2/-2 vs 2 additional Attacks and 2 additional applications of Sneak Attack it works just fine. Add Agile to that and it's even better.

The problem is, it's not just a -2/-2 for two-weapon fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting also eats up a lot of feats, and doubles your weapon enchantment costs (meaning either weaker weapons or less gold for everything else).

It also bears mentioning that the rogue is infamous for having trouble hitting to begin with. Those extra attacks only really help if they connect.

Grand Lodge

I will admit that my first three games at level 1 was atrocious when trying to hit anything with melee. I was better off using my shortbow until LVL 2 and pick up finesse rogue.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think there is a rogue archetype (swashbuckler?) that lets you take the Combat Trick rogue talent twice. Combined with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus, that's 4 bonus combat feats by level 8. Not too shabby. You can use them for Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, so that doesn't use any of the rogue's base feats.


improved feint, off hand, iterative, iterative, hastened attack. 4 sneak attacks against flat-footed AC. i dont think its that bad personally. i saw a level 12 rogue oneshot at-level monsters in Eyes of the Ten, one of the hardest mod's i know of. fyi, Agile shortsword x2, like 3k gold.

or, what my rogue will do. full round 5 attacks (main hand, off hand, main hand iterative, off hand iterative (doublecut?) hastened attack (BoS). sneak attack on all attacks with daggers, knife fighter, rolls d8's, Shadowdancer level 3, free flank buddy that moves inside the floor and rises up 5 feet to provide flank and do its attack.


Soul wrote:
fyi, Agile shortsword x2, like 3k gold.

That's wrong by a large margin. Two +1 Agile Shortswords (Don't forget you have to have the +1 enhancement before you can add Agile) come with a price tag of 16k gold. The money gap for two weapon fighting only gets worse as levels go up, maxing out at two +7 equivalent weapons costing as much as a single +10 equivalent.


The other option would be to multiclass a couple of levels into Fighter for the bonus feats to help off set some of the To-Hit and Feat issues. Of course this also nets you some extra hit points, and a nice bonus to your Fort saves. Yeah, you loose out on some skill points and an extra +1d6 at the end game but have a much easier leveling time and a more forgiving character build and your benefit for doing so is front loaded.

I'll also point out that the Rapier can be used in the off hand as a light weapon (but is not itself "light" by definition) and can be used with options like power attack (look it up, I just checked it). The real bread and butter however for a Rogue taking Two-Weapon Fighting comes into play with Elemental Damage effects such as +1d6 of fire damage because such things stack with Sneak Attack. Yeah, you are taking some penalties for fighting two handed but so what? You should be attacking while flanking anyway which will off set the penalty. Besides there is nothing from stopping you from strapping a buckler to your off hand for those times when you need opt to fight one handed for the extra hit bonus to attack (and a couple of extra AC points to boot).

Here is a super vital tip for you as a Rogue-ish character: Pair up with your largest fighter/tank class in the party and allow them to get the BBEG's attention BEFORE you engage. ALWAYS allow him to go first, and you follow on the next initiative count with your held action. This sorta tactic builds excellent team work and more cooperation at the table. To take the idea one step further perhaps even encouraging the Mage and Cleric of the party to lay one buff each on the Fighter BEFORE he charges into battle (it saves on alot of healing after the fight).

So i'll have to respectfully disagree with those who say that TWF is a wasted combat style for the Rogue. Rather i would say to do some homework on both the TWF combat syle and on the Rogue class and make sure you have a good feel for how your Sneak Attacks work.

Just my thoughts.

~ Lazlo ~

Scarab Sages

Soul wrote:
improved feint, off hand, iterative, iterative, hastened attack. 4 sneak attacks against flat-footed AC. i dont think its that bad personally.

This needs to be Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Improved Feint just makes feint a move action, which means no full attacks. Two-Weapon Feint makes feint part of a full attack, and Improved Two-Weapon Feint makes it apply to all of your attacks until the end of your round. But yes, it works pretty well. I've got a ninja that will realize this build at 9th level through careful planning and saving combat trick to be able to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 8th so I'll meet the prereqs for Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9th. There's still a problem hitting with iteratives, even against flat-footed AC, because a lot of enemies don't have much dex to begin with. Weapon Focus (or the weapon training rogue talent) and anything else you can do to improve your to hit will help.

It is a long feat chain, baut it allows a rogue/ninja to stand toe to toe with an enemy and still get sneak attacks off. Of course, boosting AC becomes important then, too.

All of that being said, Elven Curved Blade is not a good choice for a TWF build. Kukris or Wakisashis are probably ideal for a ninja. For a rogue, taking the EWP sets you back quite a bit, especially if you aren't human. So dagger or shortsword might be better. I did it with fighting fans, because that was the character concept, and with most of the damage coming from sneak attack, the base damage die didn't matter much. The +2 to feint from the fans being Distracting weapons helps, too.

Now Elven Curved Blade for a two-handed fighting rogue might be a good choice, though it still costs a proficiency or a dip into a class with martial proficiency (if you're an elf). For a ninja, Katana would probably be a better choice.


even with the gold difference (its 3am im not mathing well) having two extra attacks means an entire 2d8 extra damage, if you land them. while i know that 3ac can make quite a difference, its a whole part of the tradeoff. and by the time that you've got this many attacks you have between 90 and 120k gold if you've played Society play, and depending on what you've played and if you've played up alot. thats a LOT of gold to spend, and quite a few pretty cool options. 20k to weapons and 25-30k on Ac/saves leaves a good 40-50k for cool items like dex belts, ioun stones, potions, spellcasting services, wands, among other things.


Has there ever been a drawing of how an elven curved blade is supposed to look like? It always seems to me that someone wanted a weapon that combined certain mechanical features that are not usually found in a weapon and so made one up that has all of them.

Silver Crusade

Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:
I'll also point out that the Rapier can be used in the off hand as a light weapon (but is not itself "light" by definition).

???

You're going to have to explain this one!

Grand Lodge

Yora wrote:
Has there ever been a drawing of how an elven curved blade is supposed to look like? It always seems to me that someone wanted a weapon that combined certain mechanical features that are not usually found in a weapon and so made one up that has all of them.

Yes, UE has a picture.

But guys, this conversation is kinda moot since ECB is a Two-Handed Weapon. Thus you can't use it for two weapon fighting. Just putting that in there.

Silver Crusade

Ji-Kun, the OP wrote:
Do I have to take a size lower in order to two-weapon fight with it?

It should be noted that you can only use Weapon Finesse with a weapon sized for you.

Weapon Finesse wrote:
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.

Grand Lodge

Titan Mauler?

Is it stackable with Urban Barbarian?

Grand Lodge

If I remember right, a two-handed weapon regardless of size category is still two handed.

Grand Lodge

Madclaw wrote:
If I remember right, a two-handed weapon regardless of size category is still two handed.

No.

It shifts one step per size category, from Light, to One-handed, to Two-handed.

This works in reverse as well.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler?

Is it stackable with Urban Barbarian?

Nope, both replace fast movement with something.


Soul wrote:
even with the gold difference (its 3am im not mathing well) having two extra attacks means an entire 2d8 extra damage, if you land them.

Therein lies the problem. Between the gold gap of two-weapon fighting, the penalty to hit, and the fact that two-weapon fighting is a very feat-hungry chain, your to-hit is going to be hurting. You do zero sneak attack damage on a miss.


awp832 wrote:
2. If you don't care about #1, (which I doubt, because the word "optimal" is in your first sentence) then a Curve Blade is fine in one hand, you'll need to have a light weapon in your off hand.

How is a Curve Blade fine in one hand? I didn't see anything that would let him use a two-handed weapon in one hand, so he'd have to scale it down to wield it one-handed... in which case it's doing less damage as well as being no longer 'sized for him.'


Ive been thinking of building a two-weapon fighting barbarian (titan Mauler) that uses an ecb and a rapier and going for crit feats, or multiclassing (after i get jotungrip) into rogue, but i dont feel it would really be all that viable when i could just play a rogue and burn a single feat on proficiency with Wakiazashis, and do almost as well.


whoops, you're right Calybos, it isn't fine in 1 hand. I was confusing it with the similar Katana, but Katana doesn't work with weapon finesse.


I keep hearing about the Agile weapon property; just which book is it in, and what does it do?


The Elven Curve Blade is an exotic two-handed weapon, doing less damage than a great sword. It is advantageous only for that small segment of elven two-handed fighters that have a higher Dex than Str and even then is of debatable merit.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Eric Hinkle wrote:
I keep hearing about the Agile weapon property; just which book is it in, and what does it do?

It's in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

It's a +1-priced weapon enhancement, applicable only to Finessable weapons, that lets you use DEX for damage instead of STR (but no 1.5 for two-handing).

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

It's in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, a quite handy book to have (and Core Assumption for PFS). Even outside of the PFS, there's stuff for non-PFS play (some really nifty archetypes).

Agile allows you to use Dex to enhance damage rolls instead of Strength of Weapon Finessable weapons if you have Weapon Finesse. +1 enchantment add on.

EDIT: And appropriately for this thread, ninja'ed by Jiggy.


Seeker of Secrets (I think) allow Dex mod for damage on finessable weapons.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

KutuluKultist wrote:
The Elven Curve Blade is an exotic two-handed weapon, doing less damage than a great sword. It is advantageous only for that small segment of elven two-handed fighters that have a higher Dex than Str and even then is of debatable merit.

The merit of the ECB is that, unlike most Finessable weapons, you can two-hand it and get the 3-to-1 Power Attack damage ratio.

So a 14STR Finesser gets the same scaling damage as Mr. Greatsword, with the only difference in their damage output being the STR bonus to damage (which scales far more slowly than Power Attack). In exchange, the Finesser gets better Init, Touch AC, Reflex, threat range...

Is it the most optimal damage option you could build? No.
But it's probably the most optimal damage option if you're already planning on being DEX-based, and it's certainly "enough" damage due to Power Attack.


With rogues you could get better results and less effort using a rapier.

E.C.B are good with Dex combatants with Str in second main attribute, you will use he Dex to hit with finesse and 1-1/2 str on damage, adding the crit 15-20 to multiple the fixed damage, while with rogue the main font of damage is variable from the sneaks.

Liberty's Edge

Also, the bonus damage dice from sneak attack are more important than the damage die of the weapon itself. Consider on one hand, a seventh-level rogue wielding a pair of sawtooth sabers (1d8). His average damage on a sneak attack is 1d8 + 4d6 = 4.5 + 14 = 18.5; a rogue wielding a pair of daggers would have average damage of 2.5 + 14 = 16.5. That is the biggest difference I can come up with using two light weapons, and that requires the rogue to get the proficiency with the sawtooth saber. I realize that the proficiency is easy to get if you play a half-elf - just take Ancestral Arms in place of Skill Focus.

Or you could take the Knife Master archetype (q. v.) and change your sneak attack dice from d6 to d8 when you wield daggers, kukris or similar weapons.

Scarab Sages

I just wish there was a single pathfinder deity that used ECBs as a favored weapon. I'd love to make a dex based crusaders flurry monk that used one.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'd love to make an elven cleric with one!


i dont think a monk can flurry with an ECB even if he is proficient with it.

Scarab Sages

Soul wrote:
i dont think a monk can flurry with an ECB even if he is proficient with it.

Crusader's Flurry lets you flurry with your deities favored weapon. Unfortunately, no pathfinder deity has ECB as a favored weapon.


I´m playing a Hal-elf Eldritch Knight with ECB and having fun until now. ^^


@Soul

Crusader's Flurry is a feat that allows a monk to add the favored weapon of his chosen deity to the list of melee weapons that can be used with the flurry.

However he'd first have to find a deity that has the ECB as his/her favored weapon. I have to agree with Imbicatus in that I don't think such a deity exists.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Well there is a new book coming out soon :) Inner Sea Gods


i should look into that, i can think of plenty of cool weapons to flurry with... like the scythe... flurry of manuevers from the archetype manuever master and a scythe could be fun. adamantine ofc so i can sunder and such still, nothing bones a cleric like sundering his holy symbol


ECB might be a top choice for a DEX based fighter, but after a recent experience I think the best weapon for a rogue might be a single whip. The 10' threat range at level 7 is great for creating flanking AoOs (and flanking attacks too). Only seen a whip rogue in action for one night, but that was so impressive that it is causing me to reconsider the usefulness of rogues at higher levels.


There are a hell of a lot of Gods in Golarion already. Though I can't think of one offhand I'm reasonably sure at least one of them uses the Scythe :)

@Black Powder Chocobo

I was not aware of that, looks like a really fun book!

Edit: A quick google found Urgathoa, Apollyon, Iaozrael, Diceid, Svarozic and Deskari all have the scythe as their favored weapon. That's just the first page of hits, I'm pretty sure there are others. It should be noted that out of those only Svarzoic is good-aligned - apparently the scythe hangs out in a bad neighborhood ;)


The Elven Curve Blade is always a nice roleplaying choice--as the "Pathfinder Lexicon" thread put it:

Elven Curve Blade: A greatsword for sophisticated creatures who wouldn't be caught dead wielding anything so crude and common as a greatsword.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:
I'll also point out that the Rapier can be used in the off hand as a light weapon (but is not itself "light" by definition).

???

You're going to have to explain this one!

Happily. If you look at the weapon description for the Rapier it specifically states that the weapon qualifies for feats like weapon finesse even though it is not "light". It can be used as such with both Wpn Finesse and TWF. As such it is one of the best weapons to use for such. Other valid options for such include daggers (there are also some knife fighter builds which allow you to push the base damage to a 1d8).

There are a couple secrets to TWF as a rogue which can not be stressed enough, otherwise you will SUCK and get bogged down in every complaint that the others members in this discussion are (correctly) referring to:

1) You must be flanking your foe. This is where team work is VITAL. If you are not used to working as an actual team and using group tactics (vs the barbarian swarm approach) then this may not be the technique to use.

2) Make certain that your weapon qualify as a light weapon to avoid penalties without have to dump additional feats into off setting such. Make certain you have taken Weapon Finesse to make the most use out of your high dex, which will be critical to you as a rogue anyway. The exception to this is if you have a really amazing weapon you want to keep then dropping the additional feat into something like "oversize TWF" may be an option, but is one i tend to avoid for feat conservation.

3) Consider what type of Rogue you are really interested in playing before you start this process. If you really want the ultimate skill monkey then taking a combat heavy approach to your fighting style like TWF is going to take alot of effort which may not be worth it to you.

4) Dont neglect your Strength score, I suggest at least a 14. Push your DEX until your eyes bleed!! You are a rogue after all and it will help like 90% of your abilities.

4b) Weapon Finesse is your friend. Take it even before you have taken TWF.

4c) Have you noticed yet that you can take Power Attack with a light weapon in PF? Works great with this build. Just sayin....

5) If you are going to take TWF as a feat, go one step further and also be ready to pick up ITWF but forget about going further with the TWF line. IE: no GTWF. Why? because you will never have the BAB to justify GTWF anyway unless you are actually planning on going core FTR or Ranger, in which case this is a different discussion.

Why ITWF? Think about it, lets look at the math. If you have taken 2 levels of FTR to off set the feat investment, and one level of a Prestige Class which offers a sneak attack bonus at level one then you wind up with a "cap stone" of a character pushing 4 attacks with BONUS damage of 40d6! Plus your base + str + magic + elemental effects + etc etc. If your rogue is the lightest damage dealer in the party you have done something horribly wrong by this point. Hell even if you have missed a shot or two you are still going to land 7 out of ten of these attacks which is a RIDICULOUS amount of damage. Even if you are doing this with daggers (1d4 base damage) you can easily see how irrelevant that actually is when compared to the Sneak Attack bonus damage.

Still feeling like you are missing too often? Look into magic weapons with a bonus to hit. Use some of those group tactics i'm pushing and ask your party Bard or Cleric for some buffs, etc. Besides it makes those members of the party feel valued that you are soliciting their help and input. Take a feat which improves your To-Hit when flanking, or Weapon Focus.

Anyone who says this build isn't viable simply hasn't looked deep enough into how to actually make it work.

~ Lazlo ~

Silver Crusade

I'd advise against this course of action, if you're looking to optimize damage. As it stands, innappropriately-sized weapons carry their own penalties, in the case of a medium character trying to wield a 2-handed weapon sized for a small creature as a one handed weapon:

"PRD wrote:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

If you absolutely *must* take this route for two-weapon fighting, you'll be eating a -4 penalty on each attack with your Elven Curve Blade. Assuming you're a level 8 PFS rogue with 4 attacks coming from a small elven curve blade and a light weapon, your full-attack bonuses, without dex or other bonuses, would start out at:

+2/+4/-3/-1

An elven curve blade is a bit of a paradox in most situations. While it may be nice to have early on as a finessable weapon with a 1d10 damage die, those looking to use their dexterity to hit are normally those with a lower strength, hence the preference for the agile weapon property. Your BAB as a rogue probably couldn't take the penalties to hit from the Power Attack or Pirahna Strike feats, so even wielding a two-handed finesse weapon isn't that great, not to mention it's a liability if you happen to get grappled.

Cnetarian seems to have the right idea of it, though it may be a bit feat-intensive to take full advantage of a whip.


Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:
I'll also point out that the Rapier can be used in the off hand as a light weapon (but is not itself "light" by definition).

???

You're going to have to explain this one!

Happily. If you look at the weapon description for the Rapier it specifically states that the weapon qualifies for feats like weapon finesse even though it is not "light". It can be used as such with both Wpn Finesse and TWF. As such it is one of the best weapons to use for such. Other valid options for such include daggers (there are also some knife fighter builds which allow you to push the base damage to a 1d8).

No, you can´t use Rapier as a light weapon for TWf. Read he description again, it only work for Weapon Finesse

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's more important to hit with a rogue than it is to hit twice... because if you set yourself up properly, your damage is going to be from your Sneak Attack. Missing more often with two blades, is inferior to hitting more often than one.

Your main concerns are denying those dex bonuses, you'll be doing it via flank,and doing it via bluff. And if you can get a consistent partner, teamup feats will help as well.


Leonardo is correct - while the rapier qualifies for Weapon Finesse, it is not a light weapon. Fighting with one rapier in each hand would give you the full penalties of fighting with two one-handed weapons.

The difference becomes apparent if you compare the language for the rapier and the Sawtooth Sabre.

Silver Crusade

Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:
If you look at the weapon description for the Rapier it specifically states that the weapon qualifies for feats like weapon finesse even though it is not "light". It can be used as such with both Wpn Finesse and TWF.

Not quite:-

Rapier wrote:
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat...with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

Not 'any feat or ability that works with light weapons', it can be used with Weapon Finesse despite not being light.

Two-Weapon Fighting wrote:
...if your off-hand weapon is light, the (TWF) penalties are reduced by two each..

A rapier is not a light weapon. It is never treated as a light weapon if it's sized for you, even with weapon finesse. It may be used with weapon Finesse, even though it's not light. It doesn't say, or mean, treat it as a light weapon so that you can finesse it. it doesn't need to, as it is already a valid target for Weapon Finesse.

Weapon Finesse wrote:
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.


LazarX wrote:

It's more important to hit with a rogue than it is to hit twice... because if you set yourself up properly, your damage is going to be from your Sneak Attack. Missing more often with two blades, is inferior to hitting more often than one.

Your main concerns are denying those dex bonuses, you'll be doing it via flank,and doing it via bluff. And if you can get a consistent partner, teamup feats will help as well.

But the penality is only -2 for 2x the number of attacks. What is better: 3 hits with +20 or 6 with +18?

And you don´t need a consistent partner to flank, you have the surprise round, the hight initiative for the first round, hunters surprise, scroll/wands with summon monsters (1d4+1) to support your sneak attacks, and all the groups have other melee combatant.

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