With the hundreds or, I guess, thousands of spells available to spellcasters in Pathfinder, the odds of a PC knowing the same spells as his spellcasting foe can be really slim, making the counter spell rule virtually useless (as I understand it). Has anyone out there made a house rule different from the official rules? I'd like to hear about them.
You could use the dueling rules from Ultimate Magic.
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Yeah, it's nice to have a counterspell option in the game, but I have never seen it used.
If anyone has used the Dueling Counters from Ultimate Magic/Ultimate Combat in place of counterspells, I would like to know how it went too. What were the pros and cons?
Dueling Counters could potentially make enemy spell casters a lot less dangerous since a PC caster could effectively nullify them.
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Just give casters the "Improved Counterspell" feat for free. It's still a weak feature, but it becomes usable without having to sink a feat into it.
I agree with the OP. counter spelling as designed by raw is weak and unfun.
Lazar it's not that there are no feats, it's that the entire mechanic is wrong.
A caster duel should be as active and interactive as melee combat and has the potential to be more so without vast revamping of the game system.
As it is now countering a single spell requires too many random rolls, too many variables to match and on top of that the caster has to give up its turn just for the chance to try.
As it is now holding action to cast a damage spell is a much more effective method but does not have the right flavor in my book.
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Random ideas I had to jazz up counterspelling for someone who wanted to specialize in it;
Alternate Class Feature for Abjuration specialist Wizards;
Abjurant Counterspell
You can counterspell another spell with any prepared arcane Abjuration spell of equal or higher level, regardless of the school of spell being countered. You still need to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell you wish to counter.
To develop this feature, you must use your 1st level Feat choice to learn the Improved Counterspell feat, and you do not gain the Arcane Bond class feature, or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat (you can purchase the Scribe Scroll feat normally, although a non-Human will have to wait until 3rd level before being able to do so).
When attempting to counter spells that are of one of your opposition schools, the countering is not automatic, but is treated as if you had attempted to counter the spell with dispel magic, requiring you to succeed at a dispel check to counter the spell.
Feats
Absorptive Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell
Benefits: When you successfully counter another spell, you have a 50% chance of drawing in sufficient energies to replenish the spell (or slot) you used to counter the spell. This percentage cannot be enhanced by any means. If you are using a higher level spell to counter a lower-level spell, the chance of replenishment is reduced by 10% per level of difference.
Example: If you use dispel magic to counterspell a casting of [glitterdust, you only have a 40% chance of retaining your dispel magic spell (or slot) if successful.
Reflective Counterspell
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, Absorptive Counterspell, must be a Wizard specialized in Abjuration
Benefits: If you successfully counter a spell, you can choose *not* to absorb the energies to replenish your own expended spell slot, and to instead attempt to turn the spell back as if you had cast it yourself. If the spell has a single target, it must be the caster, and an area spell must be centered on the caster. There is a 50% chance of this being successful, with a bonus of 10% for every level by which the spell you used to counter the incoming spell overpowered it.
Example: An Abjurer uses dispel magic to counter an enemy Sorcerers scorching ray. He has a 60% chance of reflecting the spell (the entire spell, he cannot divide up the rays among separate targets) back upon the Sorcerer. If he instead counterspelled a lightning bolt, the lightning bolt would travel in a straight line to the caster, counting its range as if starting at the counterspeller.
Countermagic
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspell, must be a Wizard specialized in Abjuration
Benefits: You can counterspell a spell-like ability. The Spellcraft DC to identify a spell-like ability that duplicates a pre-existing spell is +5. For a spell-like ability that does not have a spell equivalent, such as a White Dragons Freezing Fog ability, the difficulty to identify it is +10, and you cannot counter it unless you have an ability such as Abjurant Counterspell or a spell such as dispel magic or greater dispel magic prepared that specifically can be used to counter any spell.
Counterspell Penetration
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus to dispel checks. If you are a specialist wizard, you gain an additional +2 bonus to dispel spells of your specialty school, but do not gain any bonus from this feat to dispel spells of your opposition school(s).
Personally I house rule it as so:
In order to counterspell, ready an action to do so. If the readied action is triggered, use spellcraft to identify the spell being cast by the opponent. If the spell is successfully identified, burn a spell of a level slot equal to or greater than the spell being cast to counter it.
I've used improved counterspell. With a sorcerer. Even with improved I wouldn't consider it a viable method for a wizard. but having all your spells available to pick and cast from... sorcerers can make a go of it.
My biggest annoyance Is the whole readied action bit... giving up your turn in order to MAYBE stop a spell... IF your opponent decides to cast one... and IF you're prepared the right one....
It's kind of anticlimactic to just stand around a stare at an opponent for three rounds... just KNOWING he's gonna cast something SOMEtime....
I'd rather some kind of immediate action that takes your turn or something.. but can interrupt your opponents turn. NOt sure how the reality would work... but readied actions kind of suck.
I did these Counterspell Revisions a while back, but my players still do what EWHM's players do. My NPCs make use of the rules, however.
The way I run it in home brew is as follows.
~Primary casters ( wizards, sorcerer, oracle, etc) have improved counter spell as a class ability. Other casters like magus, bard etc have to take the feat as normal.
~No readied action is necessary. As a free action you can designate a single target as being observed for signs of spell casting. (This action has no other effect other than designating who your paying attention to and letting the DM know that he has to call out that so and so starts casting a spell rather than just saying 'the bad guy casts fire ball every one give me a dc X reflex save")
When that opponent or any opponent within 5 feet of the target starts casting a spell with a casting time of standard or longer you can give up the move action of your next turn to attempt to counter the spell. Countering the spell in this way works as written in the rules in all other ways.
I will generally also allow someone to burn a spell with a reasonable excuse to counter a spell as a counter spell. For example if the player sees an opponent casting magic missile but he has no evocation spells to use as a counter he can chose to burn shield instead though the shield spell does not have any other effect beyond countering the magic missile.
This last bit has lead to some fun and inventive excuses for why one spell can counter another... I once had a wizard attempt to counter a level 4 summon spell with teleport... The idea being he redirected the summon with the teleport, the demon was summoned, Just 100 miles away. Since it was clever and he was using a level 5 spell to counter a level 4 I let him do an opposed spellcraft to see if he succeeded.
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maybe it could be either a Readied or Immediate action: if the former, it is done with a bonus to the roll (or flat); if the latter, it is done flat (or with a penalty).
for example, from Chapter 9: Magic (changes in )
Counterspells
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell's energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
How Counterspells Work:
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. . If you ready an action, you may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent's spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can't do either of these things. .
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell, . If you succeed, and you are able to cast a spell of the same level, you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. .
Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered, .
Specific Exceptions: Some spells can counter other specific spells, often those with diametrically opposed effects. .
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: .
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under this system, Improved Counterspell could just allow a lower level spell to counter a higher level spell of the same school - with a penalty of course equal to the distance between the spells' levels, or somesuch...
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ps> blue_the_wolf that's a cool idea, the magic missile vs shield, teleport vs summon...
I definitely think there needs to be some sort of immediate action option
There is for Abjuration specialists, but it really should be expanded to others, which I did in my counterspell revisions (specifically in the feat section).
Though that should probably use up your standard action on your next turn rather than your swift.
That is counter-productive. As it stands, using an immediate action means you can only counterspell every other round (if allowing it as an immediate action). On rounds in between, you have to ready to counterspell still.
drachasor
problem with using the next turns standard is that you then dont get to respond.
when you have the person burn their next turn MOVE action then next turn they can choose to move.. or respond... possibly with another spell... which the enemy then uses their next move to counter... then they respond and you use your next move to counter.
it leads to really fun wizard battles where 2 wizards are in the back lines countering each others spells and trying to take each other or individuals of the group out.
I cast shield and watch the enemy caster
>he begins to cast a spell
I use my next move action to attempt to counter the spell
-i see he is casting fireball I will counter with a dispell magic (make the roll and succeed)
on my turn I will cast fireball at his allies
>he sees you casting makes the spell craft and burns a spell to counter your fireball
"oh its on son!" I watch him for more spells
>he starts to cast a spell
I burn my next move to attempt to counter
I roll and see he is casting Hold person on our main melee damage dealer
-Oh man i cant risk you failing that save your will is weak. I am going to burn heroism to make sure John doesnt become a popsicle.
Looks like he is watching me to see what I cast
I yell to John "take out that caster I am keeping him occupied but I dont know for how long"
I begin to cast...
ETC ETC
when your burning your next move to do it each caster still gets to participate fully in battle I have also found that players tend to spread their spells more... instead of 4 fireballs and 2 haste they spread out their schools in order to cover the basses. or use more quickened spells to get around counters. it makes quickened magic missile and shield way more powerful in the late game.
more fun IMHO...
maybe it could be either a Readied or Immediate action: if the former, it is done with a bonus to the roll (or flat); if the latter, it is done flat (or with a penalty).
for example, from Chapter 9: Magic (changes in )
** spoiler omitted **...
This is the adaptation I needed to complete my own rewrite of countering. Thanks :).
My newest iteration of Countering, with rainzax's idea adapted into it:
Counter-spells:
It is possible to cast any spell as a counter-spell By doing so, you are using the spell's energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counter-spelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
Counter-spell attack and defense quantities:
Every character with the ability to cast spells (through class features, not items) has a spell defense rating (SDR) and a counter-spell attack bonus (CAB). Their total is:
Spell defense rating = caster level + primary spell-casting bonus + 1/2 base Will save bonus (rounded down) + 11
Counter-spell attack bonus = caster level + primary spell-casting bonus + (sacrificed spell level - cast spell level)
In order to counter a spell, you must sacrifice a spell slot equal or higher to the level of the spell you are countering.
There are a variety of factors that can affect your SDR and CAB:
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus: apply this bonus to SDR when casting from the selected schools.
Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration: apply this bonus to CAB.
Sacrificing dispel magic, or any spell that duplicates the effect of dispel magic: apply a +2 bonus to CAB.
Sacrificing the same spell or a spell considered to be the counter of the spell cast, such as haste/slow: apply a +2 bonus to CAB.
As rule of thumb, anything that temporarily increases your ability to overcome spell resistance increases your CAB, and anything that temporarily increases your save DC increases the SDR.
How Counter-spells Work:
To use a counter-spell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counter-spell You can do this by choosing to ready an action, or by using an immediate action. If you ready an action, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. If you use an immediate action, you may try to suddenly interrupt your opponent mid-casting. If you ready an action, you may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counter-spell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent's spell and can attempt to counter it as long as you are within your medium spell range. If the check fails, you can't do either of these things. You may take a +2 circumstance bonus to this roll if you readied an action; you take a -2 circumstance penalty to this roll if you use an immediate action.
To complete the action, you must then cast a spell, and succeed on a counter-spell check. If you succeed you create a counter-spell effect. You may take a +2 circumstance bonus to this roll if you readied an action; you take a -2 circumstance penalty to this roll if you use an immediate action. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. If you fail, and you used a readied action, you lose your spell. If you fail, and you used an immediate action, you lose your spell and your next standard action. In either case of a failure, you take a -5 penalty to your saving throws and are considered flat-footed against the spell.
Since you must cast a spell to attempt the counter-spell action, if any foes threaten you, you must cast defensively. If you used a readied action, you may take a +2 circumstance bonus to your concentration check. If you used an immediate action, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to your concentration check.
Counter-spelling Metamagic Spells: Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered, nor do they raise the DC of the counter-spell check (except Heighten Spell).
I am a firm believer in the caster being penalized for failure in countering, hence my addition of action loss, save penalties, and flat-footed . I also defined the range of countering, since I allwo the use of 'target: personal' spells to be used as counters. Otherwise, my reasoning for this system is here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l99c?Counterspell-Rewrite-Combat-Maneuver
Feats associated with my system:
Benefit: You no longer provoke an AoO when counter-spelling. You also gain a +2 bonus to your CAB check when you sacrifice a spell of the same school as the one you are countering.
Greater Counter-spell
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 6 ranks, Improved Counter-spell
Benefit: The bonus provided by Improved Counter-spell increases by +2. In addition, whenever you successfully counter a spell, it's caster provokes an attack of opportunity.
Spell Backlash (Counter)
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 9 ranks, Improved Counter-spell
Benefit: Whenever you successfully counter a spell, it's caster takes twice the spell's level in damage.
Special: You can only apply one Counter feat when countering a spell.
Parry Spell (Counter)
Same as what is in the APG with the following added:
Special: You can only apply one Counter feat when countering a spell.
Personal Counter (Counter)
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 12 ranks, Improved Counter-spell
Benefit: Whenever you successfully counter a spell with the range of personal, you may have that spells effect automatically be cast on yourself.
Special: You can only apply one Counter feat when countering a spell.
Spell Theft (Counter)
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, Improved Counter-spell, Personal Counter
Benefit: Whenever you successfully counter a spell, you may hold that spell in reserve for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your primary spell-casting bonus (minimum 1). During that time, you may cast the spell as a full-round action. All variable effects, such a save DCs and duration, use the original caster to determine their amounts. You may only have one spell stolen at a time.
Special: You can only apply one Counter feat when countering a spell.
Defensive Magical Measures
Benefit: When determining your spell defense, use your total number of Hit Die instead of caster level.
Determined Spell-casting
Benefit: Gain a +2 bonus to spell defense. If you have 10 or more ranks in Spellcraft,this bonus increases to +4.
Congruent Counter-spelling
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 10 ranks, Improved Counter-spell
Benefit: You may sacrifice multiple spells, adding their effective levels together, instead of sacrificing a single spell while counter-spelling. All spells must be granted from the same class, and effective level of the spell may be no higher then class's caster level.
Special: You do not gain the benefits granted by Improved or Greater Counter-spell from sacrificing a spell from an appropriate school.
Natural Counter Magics
Prerequisites: Improved Counter-spell
Benefit: You may counter spell-like abilities as if countering a spell.
Hardened Spell-casting
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 6 ranks, Determined Spell-casting
Benefit: When an enemy attempts and fails to counter a spell you cast, if they are targeted by the spell or in it's area of effect, they take an additional -2 penalty to AC and all saves against the spell.
The Counter feats are along the lines of the Critical feats. The way I envision these feats means that a dedicated anti-mage can invest heavily, reducing their all-around versatility while making them a true detriment to casters.
I also use the Spellcraft skill for pre-reks because I view it as the fundamental knowledge of how magic works.
The way I run it in home brew is as follows.
~Primary casters ( wizards, sorcerer, oracle, etc) have improved counter spell as a class ability. Other casters like magus, bard etc have to take the feat as normal.
~No readied action is necessary. As a free action you can designate a single target as being observed for signs of spell casting. (This action has no other effect other than designating who your paying attention to and letting the DM know that he has to call out that so and so starts casting a spell rather than just saying 'the bad guy casts fire ball every one give me a dc X reflex save")When that opponent or any opponent within 5 feet of the target starts casting a spell with a casting time of standard or longer you can give up the move action of your next turn to attempt to counter the spell. Countering the spell in this way works as written in the rules in all other ways.
I will generally also allow someone to burn a spell with a reasonable excuse to counter a spell as a counter spell. For example if the player sees an opponent casting magic missile but he has no evocation spells to use as a counter he can chose to burn shield instead though the shield spell does not have any other effect beyond countering the magic missile.
This last bit has lead to some fun and inventive excuses for why one spell can counter another... I once had a wizard attempt to counter a level 4 summon spell with teleport... The idea being he redirected the summon with the teleport, the demon was summoned, Just 100 miles away. Since it was clever and he was using a level 5 spell to counter a level 4 I let him do an opposed spellcraft to see if he succeeded.
I really like this! My GM DragonBringerX and I came up with something slightly different. With using a readied action to counterspell, the rules are unchanged.
We allow casters to use an attack of opportunity to attempt a counterspell, if there is a spell that can block it in the counter-speller's repertoire (I really really like your creative nudging idea here). The logic was that casters rarely benefit from aoo's anyway. The range must be close (25ft+5/2 caster levels) or touch in order to counterspell in this fashion (making a reason for that up close and personal mage-duel style and giving wizards a reason to risk being close).
For balancing effect, it is already a Pathfinder core rule that with the exception of quickened spells, you can only cast one spell in a round. This uses that like normal. However, nothing is stopping a caster from counterspelling as an AOO, and using a full round to cast from a scroll or some such.