Boost poison DC?


Rules Questions


Is there a way to boost a poison's save DC, aside from using multiple doses?

Most poisons that are halfway affordable to be used on a semi-regular basis have a DC of 13-15, which even at first level is more of a cointoss than anything else, and just gets worse as time goes on.

Other poisons that have a DC that actually makes them useful, have prices in the thousands.

I don't really see why. You don't want to make poisons too powerful I suppose. But it just feels silly. Wizards can throw around save or dies all day long after a few levels, heck Witches with the Sleep Hex can do so at level 1. And all of them got at least one if not more than one way to boost said DC. Not to mention their base save is already higher than most poisons.
But oh no, be careful of the rogue. He might be overpowered if we allow this!

Is there a way to distill multiple doses into a single one, or something like that?
A feat to increase DC?

Anything?


Nobody has any idea?


I had a link to some work a person did on this, but the link is now dead. He had researched the math and devised some "complex" formulas for making your own poison DC's.

However, there is a much simpler way. Use the standard poisons within the game. I believe Drow poison is a DC11. If you want it to be DC22, just double the price.

In other words, take the nDC / oDC * oCost = nCost. (o = old, n = new). This would result in the simplest way to customize DC's.

This being said, poison crafting is really broken imo. My GM and I devised a system to make poison crafting similar to magical item crafting (with how much can be made per day, etc. the same as magical items).

We are considering working on a full blown "home brew" version and submitting it to Paizo, but I am unsure if that will happen as once played through, it is unlikely I will play a poisoner again in another campaign.

Hope this helps somewhat.


Here ya go

My GM let's me use these guidelines...it helps that I have master poisoner to change the poison type

He also sets a limit on the DC


There is a spell to reduce the target's poison save (or increase the DC) - not positive on the name.


Pernicious Poison


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I was looking at this as well, this is what I found that relates to poison:

Rogue:
Poisoner ACF
Lasting Poison talent
Swift Poison talent
Deadly Cocktail advanced talent

Alchemist:
Alchemist Class
Celestial Poisons
Concentrate Poison
Poison Conversion
Malignant Poison
Sticky Poison

Feats:
Brewmaster
Master Alchemist

Race:
Nagaji favored class bonus for Alchemist

Prestige Class:
Daggermark Poisoner

And then there's a bunch of spells that I don't have a quick list of.

The conclusion I reached is that even fully specialized it's not worth using a poison, instead use the Drug Opium.

It's cheaper than any poison and can be used as an inhaled, ingested, or injury method. It does 1d4 Con and 1d4 Wis damage and fatigues. The best thing is that the enemy gets NO save.

So yeah the best poison isn't a poison. Hopes that helps.


sunderedhero wrote:

The conclusion I reached is that even fully specialized it's not worth using a poison, instead use the Drug Opium.

It's cheaper than any poison and can be used as an inhaled, ingested, or injury method. It does 1d4 Con and 1d4 Wis damage and fatigues. The best thing is that the enemy gets NO save.

Dotting and saying that this has inspired my next backup character. I do wish Paizo would make a feat for increasing the DCs of poison. Maybe DC to create the poison for increasing the DC of the poison. Otherwise, besides those mentioned, I can't think of a way right now.


Since opium is not, by game terms, a 'poison', would this mean that the ninja's Poison Use feature would not apply?


Instead of increasing the DC reduce their save.

Demolarizing is easy and drops their saves by 2.
Misftorune makes them reroll any d20 roll
Ill omen has them roll two d20 the next time they roll one and take the lessor
Sicken drops all save rolls by 2


A lot of people kind of miss this, but the DC of a poison is based off the monster's CON score. When you're working with Augment Summoning and a creature with a Poison ability, the DC for that poison goes up by 2.

So... first thing is to check with your GM how long-lasting the CON bonus has to be before it'll apply to the poison. Would a Bear's Endurance work, if you milked the snake/spider/etc before it wore off? Would tacking a Belt of +2 CON do it?

Another (less unique) option would be to tell the GM you're looking for a bigger, nastier version of whatever creature holds the poison you want (and hint to them about the Advanced Simple Template.) That'll give you a +2 to the DC of the poison as well.

Or you could take the simple approach and tell your victim, "Oh, that poison is the nastiest stuff on the planet - it'll calcify your bones and make your muscles rigid until you start bleeding from your nostrils and ears..." - and if you succeed well enough on your intimidate roll, they'll be shaken and take -2 to their saves.


Zhayne wrote:
Since opium is not, by game terms, a 'poison', would this mean that the ninja's Poison Use feature would not apply?

RAW it won't work, but honestly if you're going to use poison/drugs talk to your DM and see if you can just get everything that works with poison to work with drugs.

KBrewer wrote:

A lot of people kind of miss this, but the DC of a poison is based off the monster's CON score. When you're working with Augment Summoning and a creature with a Poison ability, the DC for that poison goes up by 2.

So... first thing is to check with your GM how long-lasting the CON bonus has to be before it'll apply to the poison. Would a Bear's Endurance work, if you milked the snake/spider/etc before it wore off? Would tacking a Belt of +2 CON do it?

This won't work, once the summoning spell ends the body and all parts disapear.

KBrewer wrote:
Another (less unique) option would be to tell the GM you're looking for a bigger, nastier version of whatever creature holds the poison you want (and hint to them about the Advanced Simple Template.) That'll give you a +2 to the DC of the poison as well.

This would work, but is dependent on the DM being ok with that.

KBrewer wrote:
Or you could take the simple approach and tell your victim, "Oh, that poison is the nastiest stuff on the planet - it'll calcify your bones and make your muscles rigid until you start bleeding from your nostrils and ears..." - and if you succeed well enough on your intimidate roll, they'll be shaken and take -2 to their saves.

The problem is that the additional time used in intimidating or spellcasting could be used for stabbing, which will kill/disable the enemy faster.


Drakkiel wrote:

Here ya go

My GM let's me use these guidelines...it helps that I have master poisoner to change the poison type

He also sets a limit on the DC

Ah this sounds very nice. I'll run this by my GM and see what he thinks.

I might tell him he can veto poisons that are too crazy.

I'm mostly looking at the Knockout Poison, as DC 13 is just a tad too unreliable to use when infiltrating somewhere and you want to knock some guards out with a poisoned dart.

Those are unfortunately also the reasons that "make them sickened or shaken before the poison" doesn't really work for me unfortunately, at least not for what I'm primarily looking at. However that's a good idea, and might come in handy against one or the other big bad.


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I too think that poisons are far too harmless in Pathfinder, but of course game balance is important too. If poison would be as effective in the game as it is in real life, everyone would play a nature guy harvesting poison from animals for instant kills (one scratch is enough).

My personal explanation for the low DCs of poisons is that they are "catch-all" poisons. Meaning they work against all living creatures.

But as you know vastly different biologies react very different on substances. A mammal is not that different from a reptile or a fish (interior skeleton, skin, flesh, blood) and still capsaicin does not work on a shark at all (Mythbusters episode ^^).
And then there are strongly different biologies like an insect (exterior skeleton, chitin plating, different blood, etc..) or an abberation (???? alien lifeform ????).

But within Pathfinder you can use the same poison against an ankheg, a human, a troll, an aboleth and a dragon. Creature so vastly different it is hard to believe it would effect them all the same way.

As such I would allow a player to create a specialized poison. Using the favored enemy list of the ranger, a player with craft(poison) can transform a normal "catch-all" poison into a specialized poison effective against one type of creature using a small amount of special herbs and ingredients (10% of the original price). DC to transform is the same as the DC to create the poison.
This poison get +5 on the DC against the correct creature and -5 against all others.
This way a character that wants to use poison can, if he knows whats coming, increase his chances.

Outside of homebrew you could try getting a poisonous creature and boost the DC as high as you can, then harvest it from there.

Some things I can think of:
Wizard - Viper familiar
Feat: Ability focus (poison) (+2 DC)
Item Con +6, Permanent Enlarge Person (+2) (all together gives +4 DC)
The familiar should have a poison DC of: 15 + half your wizard level
Then milk him for the poison (with eye for talent from a human you can get another +2 Con)
Summoner can do something similar with the poisonous bite evolution.
Viper animal companion works too of course and has even higher DC I think.

Barbarian/Alchemist and/or Summoner:
Somehow get poisonous bite attack (Race, Poisonous Bite Evolution transferred to Summoner by his special ability)
Then stack Con bonuses on yourself (Rage, Alchemist Mutagen, Spell, etc..) to boost the DC.


According to the universal monster rules, a creature's poison has a "DC 10 + 1/2 the poisoning creature’s racial HD + the creature’s Con modifier".
So according to this, you could milk a venomous beast for a higher grade poison by first boosting its Constitution score.

edit: Ninja'd, and elaborately so at that.


Those rules are crap. 160 gold for a deep slumber-equivalent effect (375 gold) with no action required (being part of an attack) and with +6 to CD to boot? and he also call it balanced?
And btw, with those rules you can increase the CD to 30 for additional 80 gold (total price 240 gold). Yea, totally balanced


I never said they were balanced...which is why my GM limits the poison DCs

Also unless you take alchemist or the poison PrC, or take the master alchemist feat making those poisons is very time consuming...not every GM gives their characters a week off after every fight

AND if you break down the poison from paizos list using his formulas about 88% of them match perfect or near perfect so the formulas are sound if not balanced

The other thing I noticed about your post was that there were no examples or ideas to help the OP...if all you can do is bring down an idea then why even post man...I consider that being a jerk = breaking the most important rule


Karuth wrote:
Item Con +6, Permanent Enlarge Person (+2)

Why would enlarge person increase the DC?

Lantern Lodge

All of the custom poison making guides/extra resources are not the best.

The best way (Following RAW rules, though you would HAVE TO BE LUCKY to get this past your GM) I've thought of is to use a chalice of poison weeping to get the poisons you want. It's a round about way of milking, but the only way to milk RAW (There's no 'milking' rules that I've seen anywhere)

Get a creature to bite you or another target

Use the chalice to suck the poison out

You now have that poison at a -4 DC, works once a day.

Combine that with poisoning arrows (The best applicator when using alot of poisons), use the deadly cocktail advanced rogue talent to add +2 to the DC and you have a supply of "On demand" poisons.

Now why use a chalice? Here why:

Have a druid change into a Giant Jellyfish, sting you and you got one of the best poisons obtainable:

6 rds, instant onset, 2 consecutive saves 1d4 con dmg dc 17

Dc becomes 13, but remember that poly morph effect DC's are based on the DC of the spell. So a spell level of 5 (unless your a druid, which it's 4) plus your casting stat plus ten. So you could end up with a DC of 23 (My magus has that, level 10, 26 int, 6 from an item). subract 4 and you have a poison at 19DC.

1 spell a day, 1 chalice, and a restoration spell as well. Brilliant! Everything goes by the RAW, the only point of argument I've seen is whether or not the poison "becomes inert" after the polymorph spell ends...


Majuba wrote:
Karuth wrote:
Item Con +6, Permanent Enlarge Person (+2)
Why would enlarge person increase the DC?

Because Enlarge Person gives a Size Bonus to Con... oh wait. I just checked the PRD. It doesn't x.x

Well then use animal growth. Gives +4 size bonus to Con.


The wording on this item is not clear depending how you read it it gives a +4 DC:

Belt, Serpent

This items gives you the ability to create poisons a few times per day. If you do not spend ... gold low poison DCs are a smaller issue ;)

Jacket, Poisoner’s

Breiti


NB: using multiple doses ONLY WORKS on inhaled and ingested poisons:

"Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once."

That said there are 4 options I know you might be able to use:

1. Get poison from a high hit dice poisonous creature.

2. Ability Focus

One of this creature's special attacks is particularly difficult to resist.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

3. Vishkanya Equipment

Vishkanyas have access to the following equipment.

Poison Tattoo: This henna-like paste creates a dark brown tattoo on the hands or feet that fades over the next 2d6 days. The tattoo temporarily boosts the strength of a vishkanya's natural poison, increasing the DC of the next weapon envenomed with the vishkanya's blood or saliva by +2 (once used, the tattoo is merely decorative and does not affect the creature's poison). A typical tattoo consists of intricate whorls and spiritual symbols on the hands or feet.
Vishkanya Equipment Item Cost Weight Craft DC
Poison tattoo 50 gp — 20

and if you really really like posion there is nothing better than:

4. the guild poisoner in: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Matt Goodall, and Jason Nelson.


I just started playing an alchemist, and I wish there were some ways to craft advanced (and more expensive) versions of what we have. Say I'm a high level alchemist and I craft items. Does my flask of acid still deal only 1d6 damage? Does my drow poison still have a DC of 13? Seems limiting as it is. The alchemist is described as imparting magic into his alchemical creations. We can make 10,001 different magic items using the creation rules. It shouldn't be a big deal to expand that to encompass single use alchemical items.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I just started playing an alchemist, and I wish there were some ways to craft advanced (and more expensive) versions of what we have. Say I'm a high level alchemist and I craft items. Does my flask of acid still deal only 1d6 damage? Does my drow poison still have a DC of 13? Seems limiting as it is. The alchemist is described as imparting magic into his alchemical creations. We can make 10,001 different magic items using the creation rules. It shouldn't be a big deal to expand that to encompass single use alchemical items.

There's a feat/discovery in secrets of the alchemist (non-Paizo) that increases the DC (but not damage, int bonus and hybridization funnel already work well for that) of alchemical items. There's also golden maple leaf powder which increases DC by 1.

Also if you're a high-enough level alchemist (level 14 or something), you can instantly craft alchemical items which is pretty crazy, granted that doesn't increase the DC.

Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:


In other words, take the nDC / oDC * oCost = nCost. (o = old, n = new). This would result in the simplest way to customize DC's.

As someone already said, a linear progression of DC with cost is terribly unfair/imbalanced.

Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:
I had a link to some work a person did on this, but the link is now dead. He had researched the math and devised some "complex" formulas for making your own poison DC's.
Drakkiel wrote:
My GM let's me use these guidelines

You must mean this link http://davidvs.net/games/pathfinder-poisons.shtml (now http://davidvs.net/hobbies/pathfinder-poisons.shtml

It is an extremely flawed way of looking at poison pricing that doesn't take into account the overall effectiveness of a poison, but rather blindly isolates one stat at a time when looking at poison cost which is completely wrong.

I made a custom poison pricing equation a while ago which makes a signifcant discount for most Paizo poisons (but a high-DC, cheap-cost poison like purple worm poison ends up costing more though), but more importantly allows for extremely cheap (and ineffective) poisons along with extremely strong (and expensive) poisons. Certainly a GM can tweak the numbers a bit as well if they think it's too strong/weak for a character who is specialized/unspecialized in poison (poison conversion, sticky poison, malignant poison)
The link can be found here
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6xr?Poisons-Revisited#7

Quatar wrote:
Nobody has any idea?

Aside from the poison crafting house rule I just posted, a character essentially has to be an alchemist to use poisons at a reasonable price effectively.

Master alchemist (crafting), Poison conversion, sticky poison, and malignant poison are all extremely useful. There are others, but I don't consider them particularly good (ex. concentrate poison). If you still want sneak attack or other things, be a vivisectionist and/or multiclass rogue.

Lantern Lodge

insaneogeddon wrote:
NB: using multiple doses ONLY WORKS on inhaled and ingested poisons:

False! There's always an exception to the rule :).

APH Rogue Talents wrote:
Deadly Cocktail (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply two doses of poison to a weapon at once. These can be separate poisons, in which case they both affect the target individually, or two doses of the same toxin, in which case the poisons' frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This talent is an exception to the rule that injury poisons can only be delivered one dose at a time.

emphasis mine.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
insaneogeddon wrote:
NB: using multiple doses ONLY WORKS on inhaled and ingested poisons:

False! There's always an exception to the rule :).

APH Rogue Talents wrote:
Deadly Cocktail (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply two doses of poison to a weapon at once. These can be separate poisons, in which case they both affect the target individually, or two doses of the same toxin, in which case the poisons' frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This talent is an exception to the rule that injury poisons can only be delivered one dose at a time.
emphasis mine.

Its a given there are exceptions but we are talking rules here, specifically pertaining to the OP.

They wrote: "is there a way to boost a poison's save DC, aside from using multiple doses?"

There was no mention of any special way to do this thus the likely hood it was an assumption based on an incorrect reading of the poison section that sadly might breed across games. Thus the need to specify that under the rules this was not the case.

My apologies for not specifying that I am not accounting for other feats/class abilities/class features/prestige classes/magic items/epic abilities/other suplements etc etc etc etc etc. If I had the time I would go back and correct all my other posts because it seems I make this mistake alot : )

Lantern Lodge

Hehe, sorry, I shoulda screened my post and taken out the "False!" line, I wasn't trying to be mean at all. I was in the happy kind of mood... if that makes sense at all?

But your right about keeping on track with the OP, I strayed and didn't read the OP after reading everything else.


My apologies I was probably a little snippy, computer been glitching and I cannot fix it. It horrifies and shocks and does my attitude a disservice.


bit of a little necro but

I'm making a poisony bomby alchemist soon so I figured i'd shoot a try

Any other items that one can think of that boosts Poison a ability? as breiti said,

Serpetine belt +4 to poisons (tad unusally worded but the wording is different enough that it'll probably work to buff the DC in my games)
Poisoner's jacket (create poisons under a specific value cost couple times a day)
then the ones I know..
Poisoner's glove: lets you touch inject (though not really super useful compared to just coating a weapon, but each glove can be filled with a different thing)
can anyone else thinki of anything useful for poison effect, or application?

Lantern Lodge

I personally prefer using a bow and arrows as application apperatus. You can poison them ahead of time, and if you use the rogue master talent, give each arrow two poisons. If you miss a shot, 50% chance of recovery... but at least you can hit your guy with more than 6 poisons in one round (A zen archer can get as many as 7 attacks in one round, and with deadly concoction the rogue talent that gives you 14 poison attempts, also note that they can roll one attack 3 times per round)

The main issue is that poison is rare and expensive. I really doubt serpetine belt increases your poisons DC, but rather gives you +4 to poison saves.

Poisoner's jacket helps. Having a familiar or animal companion with poison can be useful IF your DM allows milking.

You can reduce your foe's chance to resist poisons, such as the shaken or sickened conditions. Fortitude reducing poisons are where it's at for that reason.

Other than whats already mentioned up thread, and some of my repeats, there's really no more. I don't think poison was supposed to be a viable strategy to be used frequently. Other wise you might end up with crazy boss fights turning into easy encounters. For instance: put dragon to sleep, walk up, place a evaporator in front of it's snout with alot of inhale-able poison. Come back in 1 hour and do whatever you needed to do with the dead dragon. Done.


yeah true enough

Hm. I suppose as far as spells go if your not a spell caster your only choices would be wands then? (pernacious poison etc)

I think the belt will work fine for the boost for my case at least.

poison sure isn't a all the time thing but it'd be neat for specific cases.


Posted this somewhere else a couple days ago, it works for me:

GM: wrote:


I found an interesting idea on the quantity over quality route. (There might be a better alternative way to do this, and this only includes up to level 11, but the concept is simple)

What I used:

Class Levels
Bardic (Dervish Dancer Archetype) lvl 8
Fighter lvl 1
Alechemist level 2 (If you wish to concentrate poisons)

Items Needed
Drow Poison (37.5g per dose if you make it)
Tons of daggers (I use daggers, due to cheapness and lightness, and because they can be thrown)

Put all the points into DEX not caring about STR, hopefully this means your Dex is at 20 (24 with Cat's Grace, giving a +7 attack modifier when combined with weapon finesse)

Feats: Master Alchemist, Quickdraw, weapon finesse, two-weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, weapon focus, greater two-weapon fighting

Later Feats:, point-blank shot, weapon training (if you use remaining levels for fighter, though personaly I would go with leveling the bard to 15 and doing two levels in rouge knife fighter archetype)

With just the lvl 11 build you have 6 attacks (3 From the Dervish Dancer, and 3 from the two weapon-fighting feats)

You have a ton of light weapons each with a drow poison applied to it. With each attack you drop the weapon (free action) in that hand and grab a another one (which is now a free action thanks to quickdraw).

Thus each attack is made with a different weapon, each with their own poison dose. If you have a concentrated dose of the drow poison the Fort saving throw is 15.

With this you get 6 attacks (with attack modifiers +14/+14/+8/+7/+4/-1) each hit then causes the opponent to roll a Fort save DC 15. If they fail any one of the fort saves they are knocked unconscious. Also because dagger are being used this can be used as ranged attacks with no penalties. The poison use from Alchemist doesn't risk self-poisoning either. Still a bit costly at 75g per hit assuming you make it yourself (and each hit might not even knock them unconscious) but not horrible either considering some of the gold amounts I've seen at that high level. This can be fixed with the lvl 6 sticky poison alchemist discovery

If you believe your enemy might have particulary high Fort, crushing despair can help that a little bit by lowering fort by two (would use an extra turn, but could help alot if needed)

(They will be unconscious for at least a minute, ample time to finish them off or tie them up)


AD&D poisons were the scariest in the game. Be thankful this game draws inspiration from 3.5. But I do agree that a dedicated poisoner can't beat a fighter of equal level in less than 3 rounds. Plenty of time to raise an alarm. It would be easier to go bard/x/shadow dancer and rely on silence and use poison only to make sure the martial loses use of their feats through ability damage. Dex and Str damage should be major targets. This is only for infiltration themed characters, not Scarecrow poisoners. Keep in mind that each poison application increases the save DC.

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