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An open letter to the Paizo creative team
Greetings,
I was a pathfinder modules subscriber for some time. I've consistently enjoyed the products and I salute the quality of your work. A couple months ago I ran into some tough financial times and had to cancel that subscription. The financial difficulties have passed but after some objective assessment I've decided not to renew it. The realization that led to this decision was that:
- I own enough pregenerated content (both official Pathfinder and material form previous editions) to run lvl 1-12 campaigns from now till Ragnarok
- I could get a solid handful of those campaigns up to 17th lvl (mostly due to APs)
- I would be hard pressed to get any of them up to 20th lvl
Henceforth I will be making module purchases on a case by case basis as follows:
- Lvl 1-11, I will not be purchasing modules of this level unless they are sufficiently unique to warrant an exception
- Lvl 12-16, I will purchase some modules of this level. The higher the level the more likely I'll purchase it.
- Lvl 17-20, I will be purchasing any modules of this level that get released. With special interest for content of lvls 19&20
I write this letter not to demand a shift of focus to that which I want, but ensure my voice is heard amongst cries of “high level content never sells well” and “most players have no interest in high level games”. Obviously I don't have access to your sales figures, so perhaps all those voices are correct. You are a company and must make money to continue putting out products at all. So if it really does make more financial sense for you to continue making mostly low-mid level content I respect that and wish you the best of luck. Regardless I want to make sure there's at least one voice saying “I will purchase your high level content.”
In closing I'd just like to say thank you for being the most approachable game company I know.
I appreciate your time, attention and consistently excellent work.
Sincerely
- Torger J. Miltenberger
P.S. I invite any readers with similar purchasing habits to make their support known below. The more people who are interested in such content make their voices politely known the more likely Paizo is to produce it.
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Well said. (I'll buy anything, but well said anyway :p).
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Since we're talking business, the best way to get your point across is to buy all the high-level modules/adventures (including AP installments and PFS mods) and ask everybody to do the same.
"Open letters" don't result in changes to sales, purchases do :)
Buying all the high-level modules/adventures won't suffice if other fans of high level game won't do the same - and such open letter lets other know that they are not alone.
I usually buy anything Paizo puts out, but I do wish they would put a few more higher offerings on the venue. Just an occasional one here and there would be cool. With the new format, I am liking what I've seen so far.
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An interesting read, and well said, even if I don't agree 100%.
It's my opinion that stats and plot are easily modified for higher levels. Inspiration and maps and character art are still worth paying for.
I do think more high level stuff would be good, especially with the increased space in the new format. Hopefully they'll find a breakthrough to make these adventures easier for GMs to process. I still hold out hope for a 2-4 page spell countermeasures section in any adventure module past 9th.
I hope they hear your message, OP.
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Since we're talking business, the best way to get your point across is to buy all the high-level modules/adventures (including AP installments and PFS mods) and ask everybody to do the same.
"Open letters" don't result in changes to sales, purchases do :)
Two (potential) issues with that Gorbacz.
First, it sounds like he's already done exactly that. He's stopped buying what he doesn't want and will buy what he wants. He's also - sort of - asked everybody to do the same. So, um... got that covered.
Secondly, statistics without context are flawed. If Paizo sees a drop in the number of subscribers for their modules line they cannot possibly intuit the cause. If enough people express the reason for their cancellation in a fashion that Paizo will learn said reasons, those statistics suddenly have meaning. Otherwise Paizo could just as easily decide that the reason modules (hypothetically) aren't selling very well are because there aren't enough adventures about recovering cupcake recipes and decide to have The Year of Baked Goods.
Open letters don't result in changes when there's no way for the intended recipient to learn of them. Writing on Slashdot how much you hate Windows 8 won't "get to" Microsoft. Writing on Paizo's forum about the causes for your subscription cancellation... useful.
For the record, I'm not cancelling mine but I have much the same issues... decades of material I will never run and insufficient material I need.
Try Way of the Wicked from Fire Mountain Games, that is a third party AP in six parts (written for the Pathfinder system, but not set in Golarion) that will take players from 1st level to 20th.
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Might I recommend the Book of Beasts: Legendary Foes from Jon Brazer Enterprises, my company. While it is not a module, it is in the level appropriate range you are looking for. It starts at CR 15 and extends up to 25 as well as 3 demigods which are CR 28 and 29. It focuses on monsters but includes NPCs and traps as well.
[/shameless plug]
Since we're talking business, the best way to get your point across is to buy all the high-level modules/adventures (including AP installments and PFS mods) and ask everybody to do the same.
"Open letters" don't result in changes to sales, purchases do :)
Henceforth I will be making module purchases on a case by case basis as follows:
- Lvl 1-11, I will not be purchasing modules of this level unless they are sufficiently unique to warrant an exception
- Lvl 12-16, I will purchase some modules of this level. The higher the level the more likely I'll purchase it.
- Lvl 17-20, I will be purchasing any modules of this level that get released. With special interest for content of lvls 19&20
Also my adventure path subscription remains intact. Paizo will be getting money from me for every high level adventure they make.
As for asking everyone else to do the same I'll not presume to request that others spend their money in a certain fasion. I will however ask that anyone with similar purchasing plans make their views known.
- Torger
An interesting read, and well said, even if I don't agree 100%.
It's my opinion that stats and plot are easily modified for higher levels. Inspiration and maps and character art are still worth paying for.
I do think more high level stuff would be good, especially with the increased space in the new format. Hopefully they'll find a breakthrough to make these adventures easier for GMs to process. I still hold out hope for a 2-4 page spell countermeasures section in any adventure module past 9th.
I hope they hear your message, OP.
Thanks for the support EL
You're absolutely right that low level content can still hold value for someone interested in running a high level game. No question. The Point I was attempting to make is that at this point my collection contains enough maps and art that it no longer makes sense for me to pay for whole modules to get only a skeleton that I have to add muscle and bone to.
Spell counter measure sections are a great idea. I wholeheartedly endorse it.
- Torger
Try Way of the Wicked from Fire Mountain Games, that is a third party AP in six parts (written for the Pathfinder system, but not set in Golarion) that will take players from 1st level to 20th.
I've looked at it and considered a purchase unfortunately it would be unlikely to get play at my table due to the evil PCs component. Not that I have any problem running such a game it's just one of my players in particular really isn't into playing evil characters.
I do appreciate the suggestion though and if they were to put out a heroic AP of level 1-20 I'd be all over it.
- Torger
Another idea, along the lines of what we've just discussed, is for the 68-page modules to contain 1-2 pages of advice/information on how to scale the adventure up (or down). Replacement enemies to use, spell considerations, etc. It would not need to be comprehensive, just advice from someone who is good at re-scaling adventures.
That way you build a nice stable of options for high-level every time you release mid-level material. It need not be every 1st level adventure scales to 20th, maybe plus or minus 5 levels would be a good range. (so Crypt of the Everflame up to 5th, Witchwar legacy up to 20th+).
I think I've seen modules that included similar passages, the Academy of Secrets, maybe? On integrating it into an AP that was at a slightly different level.
The problem you run into is that line where it isn't really a "high level" adventure. At some point, PCs just stop clearing dire-rats out of sewers and move on to bigger things. So these scaling rules should by no means be universal. But you should be able to take a 10th level adventure, and give the GM 2 pages that say "what if you want to run this at 15th? 20th? Add these templates, substitute these monsters, double the number of enemies in this counter, and remove the following clues if the characters have access to divination, use the following excuse to entice them through the en-route encounter rather than just teleporting past it, etc, etc."
Another idea, along the lines of what we've just discussed, is for the 68-page modules to contain 1-2 pages of advice/information on how to scale the adventure up (or down). Replacement enemies to use, spell considerations, etc. It would not need to be comprehensive, just advice from someone who is good at re-scaling adventures.
That way you build a nice stable of options for high-level every time you release mid-level material. It need not be every 1st level adventure scales to 20th, maybe plus or minus 5 levels would be a good range. (so Crypt of the Everflame up to 5th, Witchwar legacy up to 20th+).
I think I've seen modules that included similar passages, the Academy of Secrets, maybe? On integrating it into an AP that was at a slightly different level.
The problem you run into is that line where it isn't really a "high level" adventure. At some point, PCs just stop clearing dire-rats out of sewers and move on to bigger things. So these scaling rules should by no means be universal. But you should be able to take a 10th level adventure, and give the GM 2 pages that say "what if you want to run this at 15th? 20th? Add these templates, substitute these monsters, double the number of enemies in this counter, and remove the following clues if the characters have access to divination, use the following excuse to entice them through the en-route encounter rather than just teleporting past it, etc, etc."
Another excellent idea. A section like that would, for me, add a ton of value to a module. To the tune of I'd probably pay an extra dollar or two.
Also if all their modules had a section like that it would expand the level range I'm interested in to roughly 8th-20th.
- Torger
I'm sure it's a ton of work, too.
Paizo'll decide if it's worth it. But I'd love to see it.
I'll be honest, I was gonna re-up my module sub for the 98 page format anyway... but if they follow through on anything from this thread, that will totally seal the deal.
I will probably continue to buy all modules for the foreseeable future, since I can always use more sources of inspiration. However, I would also like more higher level options. After about 12 is just seems to dry up. There are a few higher, but no where near the variety.
Otherwise Paizo could just as easily decide that the reason modules (hypothetically) aren't selling very well are because there aren't enough adventures about recovering cupcake recipes and decide to have The Year of Baked Goods.
...I need dis!
Creative Director
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Another idea, along the lines of what we've just discussed, is for the 68-page modules to contain 1-2 pages of advice/information on how to scale the adventure up (or down). Replacement enemies to use, spell considerations, etc. It would not need to be comprehensive, just advice from someone who is good at re-scaling adventures.
That way you build a nice stable of options for high-level every time you release mid-level material. It need not be every 1st level adventure scales to 20th, maybe plus or minus 5 levels would be a good range. (so Crypt of the Everflame up to 5th, Witchwar legacy up to 20th+).
I think I've seen modules that included similar passages, the Academy of Secrets, maybe? On integrating it into an AP that was at a slightly different level.
The problem you run into is that line where it isn't really a "high level" adventure. At some point, PCs just stop clearing dire-rats out of sewers and move on to bigger things. So these scaling rules should by no means be universal. But you should be able to take a 10th level adventure, and give the GM 2 pages that say "what if you want to run this at 15th? 20th? Add these templates, substitute these monsters, double the number of enemies in this counter, and remove the following clues if the characters have access to divination, use the following excuse to entice them through the en-route encounter rather than just teleporting past it, etc, etc."
We actually did "Scaling the Adventure" sidebars in Dungeon Magazine for a long time, and I eventually came to the opinion that they're a waste of space. It's one thing to offer advice to scale an adventure 1 level or so, but scaling, say, a 6th level adventure to 16th level simply doesn't work at all. Not only do the monsters change and character abilities change, but the fundamental way a high level adventure needs to be written and presented is different.
The solution is the production of more high-level adventures. Which, now that we're down to 4 modules a year, gets even trickier for Paizo, alas.
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We actually did "Scaling the Adventure" sidebars in Dungeon Magazine for a long time, and I eventually came to the opinion that they're a waste of space. It's one thing to offer advice to scale an adventure 1 level or so, but scaling, say, a 6th level adventure to 16th level simply doesn't work at all. Not only do the monsters change and character abilities change, but the fundamental way a high level adventure needs to be written and presented is different.
The solution is the production of more high-level adventures. Which, now that we're down to 4 modules a...
In the above discussion, I think there was a cap of 4-5 levels higher implied. I certainly recognize that you can only scale up so far.
However, if the module's been designed for 17th, then including scaling advice for 20th is probably not a waste. The spells are all the same, there are just more of them. Templates can do the heavy lifting.
I can't argue against your experience, I just want to be clear that +10 levels was not something we called for.
Another suggestion I'd have is Adventure Path Epilogues. You could release one module every 6 months indefinitely, starting with Runelords, and you'd never catch up! At least this way, you'd capture the completionist's dollar, and there are no shortage of completionists among the AP subscribers.
It doesn't have to be a literal epilogue, just a high level adventure in the right region that would really interest post-AP characters.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Much like the tier scaling done in PFS scenarios.
It does add to the page count/remove actual content though. I'm not sure how much.
Tier scaling in PFS makes design and development much more difficult and it by nature is an exercise in compromise. The higher level modules are even more difficult than the low level ones and designing/ developing for 16th level+ is already more challenging than designing for lower levels.
I'm not sure what the solution is for high level adventures, but I don't think anything like the tiering for PFS is the solution, stat blocks at those levels are already complex and adding half again as many would significantly eat into the page count and for most buyers would just be a waste.
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Another suggestion I'd have is Adventure Path Epilogues. You could release one module every 6 months indefinitely, starting with Runelords, and you'd never catch up! At least this way, you'd capture the completionist's dollar, and there are no shortage of completionists among the AP subscribers.
Day one subscriber right here.
- Torger
Dont they already do this in the 'Continuing the Campaign' chapter of the last module in each AP? The one that springs to mind is Skull and Shackles, the last book contained a load of high CR monsters and suggestions how to implement them into a campaign after the PC's have won the Hurricane Crown.
Dont they already do this in the 'Continuing the Campaign' chapter of the last module in each AP? The one that springs to mind is Skull and Shackles, the last book contained a load of high CR monsters and suggestions how to implement them into a campaign after the PC's have won the Hurricane Crown.
While that certainly doesn't hurt, there's still an awful lot of work to be done if you're to follow those suggestions. What I'm looking for is that sort of minimal work, ready to play, game in a can but for high levels.
It's hard to find.
It's worth pointing out that the next Module set for release is a level 12-16 adventure.
- Skeld
That's a start. Puts it exactly in the will consider purchase category. I'll certainly have a look.
- Torger
The solution is the production of more high-level adventures. Which, now that we're down to 4 modules a...
I'd settle for even one a year.
- Torger
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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One of the reasons we expanded the Pathfinder Modules format was to give us more room to tell cool higher-level stories while dealing with the sprawl of high-level stat blocks, which can chew through enough of a 32-page module that it's really hard to have much description or depth otherwise.
We'll definitely be doing more high-level adventures in this line in the future.
One of the reasons we expanded the Pathfinder Modules format was to give us more room to tell cool higher-level stories while dealing with the sprawl of high-level stat blocks, which can chew through enough of a 32-page module that it's really hard to have much description or depth otherwise.
We'll definitely be doing more high-level adventures in this line in the future.
That's great to hear. I look forward to seeing how you guys tackle the unique challenges of high level adventure design.
- Torger
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I recently began a similar discussion.
So Who Do We Harass To Get Some High-Level Modules?
We'll definitely be doing more high-level adventures in this line in the future.
It seems our campaigning has paid off. Thank you Mr. Mona for the affirmative that we WILL be seeing more high-level material.
In the above linked thread I made a suggestion that I will repeat here.
Wrath of the Righteous is providing just such a high-level product. The AP not only goes levels 1-20 but it also covers 10 mythic tiers. If mythic play is not be something you are interested in consider it an AP that goes from level 1-25, with most of it being in the high (15+) range.
Paizo is not only earning my money with this, they are earning my very first subscription. My gaming budget is severely limited and so the fact that I am locking myself into reoccurring payments for a product is quite the statement.
The more we make a point of saying what we want and putting our money into what is precisely what we want than we will be heard and we will get the kinds of products we want. That being said, if the sales are there to back up continuing to release low-level content than I will happily accept that. Paizo doing what they need to do to stay in business will certainly not drive me away from the game.
Wrath of the Righteous is providing just such a high-level product. The AP not only goes levels 1-20 but it also covers 10 mythic tiers. If mythic play is not be something you are interested in consider it an AP that goes from level 1-25, with most of it being in the high (15+) range.
I'll certainly be getting it. As I said upthread my AP subscription remains intact. Unfortunately Mythic doesn't really interest me. I want to explore the existing high level rules not tack abilities on to low level characters to make them quasi high level. So without real post level 20 rules the AP will probably collect dust on my self for the foreseeable future. More's the pity.
- Torger
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Another suggestion I'd have is Adventure Path Epilogues. You could release one module every 6 months indefinitely, starting with Runelords, and you'd never catch up! At least this way, you'd capture the completionist's dollar, and there are no shortage of completionists among the AP subscribers.
It doesn't have to be a literal epilogue, just a high level adventure in the right region that would really interest post-AP characters.
Well said. I've been hoping for the same thing for a long time. Ideally it'd be a bi-yearly event; I've always thought of it as 'Part 7 of 6' of the adventure path, but I could certainly see making it once a year or so instead due to the effort involved.
In my mind this would be a separate subscription item. Doing so covers several bases:
- A Part 7 subscription, like all existing subscriptions, would give consistent, constant support for the line, allowing for planning.
- It would also clearly identify who exactly was interested, whether there was enough interest, and whether such a thing was practical in the long term.
Hell, since it would probably take them a year to get the first one out the door, they could probably announce it and see off the bat whether it was a worthwhile exercise.
Hmmmmm ... perhaps we have a new possibility for RPG Superstar ... design a part 7 of 6 for an existing Adventure Path, to be part of the new Adventure Path Epilogue subscription .....
Hmmmmm ... perhaps we have a new possibility for RPG Superstar ... design a part 7 of 6 for an existing Adventure Path, to be part of the new Adventure Path Epilogue subscription .....
I gotta admit, this sounds kinda cool.
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Creative Director
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We actually did "Scaling the Adventure" sidebars in Dungeon Magazine for a long time, and I eventually came to the opinion that they're a waste of space. It's one thing to offer advice to scale an adventure 1 level or so, but scaling, say, a 6th level adventure to 16th level simply doesn't work at all. Not only do the monsters change and character abilities change, but the fundamental way a high level adventure needs to be written and presented is different.
The solution is the production of more high-level adventures. Which, now that we're down to 4 modules a...
In the above discussion, I think there was a cap of 4-5 levels higher implied. I certainly recognize that you can only scale up so far.
However, if the module's been designed for 17th, then including scaling advice for 20th is probably not a waste. The spells are all the same, there are just more of them. Templates can do the heavy lifting.
I can't argue against your experience, I just want to be clear that +10 levels was not something we called for.
Another suggestion I'd have is Adventure Path Epilogues. You could release one module every 6 months indefinitely, starting with Runelords, and you'd never catch up! At least this way, you'd capture the completionist's dollar, and there are no shortage of completionists among the AP subscribers.
It doesn't have to be a literal epilogue, just a high level adventure in the right region that would really interest post-AP characters.
The dungeon adventures scaling sidebars covered 4-5 levels on average, and even then things started falling apart. For example, an adventure for 4th level characters about a murder mystery suddenly changes significantly at 5th level when clerics can cast speak with dead.
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Creative Director
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Much like the tier scaling done in PFS scenarios.
It does add to the page count/remove actual content though. I'm not sure how much.
Tier scaling in PFS makes design and development much more difficult and it by nature is an exercise in compromise. The higher level modules are even more difficult than the low level ones and designing/ developing for 16th level+ is already more challenging than designing for lower levels.
I'm not sure what the solution is for high level adventures, but I don't think anything like the tiering for PFS is the solution, stat blocks at those levels are already complex and adding half again as many would significantly eat into the page count and for most buyers would just be a waste.
Yeah; the tiering system used in PFS is not appropriate for print modules for a LOT of reasons.
My solution to the problem has always been "print more adventures" rather than "make the adventures you have usable for the widest range of levels."
The scaling the adventures thing started with the first issue of 3rd edition Dungeon magazine, when the game was at a point where the adventures in that volume were the ONLY ones out. And since for much of 3rd edition's run, Dungeon magazine was the only place to reliably get adventures, that scaling bit did help, I suppose.
But now... there's a LOT of adventures to choose from, and with each new one published, the need for scaling adventure sidebars, in my mind, diminishes. Thankfully!
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Creative Director
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A "part 7" to an adventure path sounds cool... but why would folks stop wanting stuff there? People would soon want "Part 8" and "Part 9" and so on.
That said... even a Part 10, 11, or 12 would be cool.
The unfortunate truth is that we can't do even a part 7 with the nature of how our adventure path product is currently handled. Not until someone invents an entire new month to squeeze into each year.
(Putting a Part 7 on a separate "subscription" list won't change the fact that the same folks working on parts 1 to 6 of any one AP would be the same ones working on this part 7, and that would mean they're working on that at the same time they're starting work on the next Adventure Path, which would mean that both the Part 7 and the Part 1 of the next two APs (both the one starting development and the one starting to be outlined) would suffer and diminish in quality due to the fact that time is being split between the two.
A "part 7" to an adventure path sounds cool... but why would folks stop wanting stuff there? People would soon want "Part 8" and "Part 9" and so on.
That said... even a Part 10, 11, or 12 would be cool.
The unfortunate truth is that we can't do even a part 7 with the nature of how our adventure path product is currently handled. Not until someone invents an entire new month to squeeze into each year.
(Putting a Part 7 on a separate "subscription" list won't change the fact that the same folks working on parts 1 to 6 of any one AP would be the same ones working on this part 7, and that would mean they're working on that at the same time they're starting work on the next Adventure Path, which would mean that both the Part 7 and the Part 1 of the next two APs (both the one starting development and the one starting to be outlined) would suffer and diminish in quality due to the fact that time is being split between the two.
Thanks for addressing this in detail.
Those sound like difficult obstacles to an adventure path epilogue, but it's nice to know that if you did take the risk you'd have huge demand. Maybe you could do just one (runelords!) in the Modules line as an experiment and see how that goes?
As time wears on, a large number of the 16th level characters in existence are the result of completed adventure paths. Branding high-level modules to be played at the end of that (though not necessarily mandatory) removes several question marks (for me) about high level play.
As for the parts 8, 9, etc... I really would like to start with just one. I suspect many groups are like my own — they'd jump at the chance to dust off their highest-level, most-developed PCs, but maybe not sign on for a whole sweeping new campaign. Something substantial but self-contained, and a little different from what has gone before. The new module format sounds really good to fill that niche.
Any old high-level, 64-pager might fit the description. But branding them as AP epilogues (which may only mean some easter-eggs in an otherwise modular experience) more or less guarantees a draw from the AP addicts. Whether that's competing line extension is for Paizo to figure out.
I enjoy having only the responsibility of proclaiming what I want to buy. Otherwise I'd be sending job applications to Paizo. I have faith that we'll see something like an AP Epilogue happen some day, once they find a way to make it work.
Not until someone invents an entire new month to squeeze into each year.
I work at a highly busy IT company. We have a solution for your troubles. When we get crammed and a bunch of customers all want service "in September", we just ask them the obvious question: "which September? The first one or the second one? 'Cuz the first one's mostly booked up."
In retrospect this may not help you much. All it does is give us a chuckle while the nervous-breakdown continues.
Also, AP Epilogue material would be more or less perfect for Mythic products, as I understand them (imperfectly).
It would be about taking your 16th level PCs into their next legend, connected to the first (the AP) but now they're much more folkloric types who show up and solve other huge threats to the setting.
Again, I'm not sure how many people are looking for this experience, but I am. I have a very clear picture of the kind of module that —if released— would cause my runelords players to beat down my front door and demand to play it.
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What about, as gbonehead suggested, trying to work part 7 into RPG superstar? Then it would definitely be done by other people. On the other hand, it would mean that the "epilogues" would all be written by different people from the rest of the APs...
** spoiler omitted **
You'd likely have better chance convincing Legendary Games to put together a Part 7 for some of these--a lot of their writers are likely on the AP pieces, anyway. They'd have to be generic in how they approach it, but it could be done.
You'd likely have better chance convincing Legendary Games to put together a Part 7 for some of these--a lot of their writers are likely on the AP pieces, anyway. They'd have to be generic in how they approach it, but it could be done.What about, as gbonehead suggested, trying to work part 7 into RPG superstar? Then it would definitely be done by other people. On the other hand, it would mean that the "epilogues" would all be written by different people from the rest of the APs...
** spoiler omitted **
I'd be all for that as well.
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I'll ping Jason Nelson to take a look at this thread.
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I want more high level stuff, but at the same time, most of the high level modules thet have done (modules not AP issues) are pretty bad. Moonscar in particular feels like a slogging dungeon crawl for 9th level character (but on the moon) rather than epic adventure for people who have saved the world.
That's another reason pinning it to the end of an AP would be nice. It gives the writers a sense of exactly how many slogs the party has already faced.
Heck, even if it's not branded as an AP Epilogue, I think the writers of any module of 17th+ should be writing for characters post-AP. It really puts a lot of things in perspective.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I'll ping Jason Nelson to take a look at this thread.
Hi all,
Christina pinged me and I talked about the idea with my partner at Legendary Games, Neil Spicer, and we're kind of on the fence about the idea.
On the one hand, I enjoy running high-level games at home and actually have a couple of ideas already sitting on the back burner for some high-level adventures. One could pretty easily be appended to the Skull and Shackles AP. The other doesn't really tie into any existing AP.
The hard part about a 3PP connecting to a Paizo AP, of course, is making it really FEEL like an epilogue to an AP without mentioning any Paizo AP. It could be done, of course, and we already do it with our Adventure Path Plug-Ins, but somehow it feels like an epilogue to an AP would really want to connect to all of the dangling plot-threads and major characters throughout the AP. I could be wrong; maybe it's not any more than you need to connect a side-trek adventure in the middle of the AP.
Another challenge is whether to work on developing high-level adventures that are connected to Paizo APs or whether we should focus on building up our own unique adventures that build up to high level. Here's the heart of the question:
Is it just that people want awesome high-level adventures, period, or that they want high-level adventures that jump off from existing Paizo APs?
We are thinking about the idea and will be developing our product lines and options further. We have a great crew of adventure-writers on board at Legendary Games, with two mid-level adventures coming out soon, Matt Goodall's Horns of the Hunted this month and a special October surprise adventure that we'll be talking more about after GenCon, and we've done lower-level adventures. High-level adventures are a natural evolution of our product line and a worthwhile test market to see how many folks are ready to plop their money down for fabulous high-level adventures.
Keep up the discussion; we're watching with interest.
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Creative Director
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You'd likely have better chance convincing Legendary Games to put together a Part 7 for some of these--a lot of their writers are likely on the AP pieces, anyway. They'd have to be generic in how they approach it, but it could be done.
What about, as gbonehead suggested, trying to work part 7 into RPG superstar? Then it would definitely be done by other people. On the other hand, it would mean that the "epilogues" would all be written by different people from the rest of the APs...
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If we were to do a part 7... one of the requirements I would demand would be that we'd treat it as parts 1-6. We'd build them here, maybe use a freelancer, and develop them here. And since we don't have time to do that with our current business plan, it's simply very unlikely to happen.
I appreciate all the suggestions... but there's a LOT of reasons why we do APs how we do them. We've learned a lot over the past decade about how to do them, after all... we're still learning, in fact.
I'm certainly okay with and encourage other publishers to step up and meet this apparent demand for high-level adventures...
...but I'm just not all that interested in officially sanctioning "extensions" to our adventure paths in this manner. Of course, the OGL being what it is... I suppose someone COULD do an extension with the numbers filed off and all that, but without access to Golarion's non-open content, I'm not sure how rewarding that would be to the creators and players... (shrug)
One thing to consider about High Level Adventures is new players/GMs. Before an upsurge in high level modules comes out, there should probably be a small guide book published first.
There's a lot of new players and GMs out there who've never really played characters all that high of a level. I know of groups who started in PFS and had difficulties switching over to an AP because of the higher levels involved in the last 2 books.
The problem comes down on two fronts, inexperienced GMs and players. By inexperienced, I mean people who haven't played/ran games of high level.
An experienced GM should probably know how to tone down the high level play until the new players get their teeth wet and learn the tactics and defenses they need to survive. He can probably coach them along, giving advice on what they can do to better prepare themselves.
The problem is inexperienced GMs don't know how to handle high level PCs and will do something like throw bigger and badder enemies that smoke the party. Or the PCs curbstomp all of the enemies and the game just dies off because it's not challenging and fun anymore.
On the PC side, the players that are inexperienced could become upset and loose interest if their party is regularly wiped because they just don't know how to play at high level. It's know fun if every time you hit 14th level, your party is wiped because all of the big bads out there can kill a player in at least 8 different ways.
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I agree. Personally, I'd much rather see a legendary games book on how to run high level games than a high level adventure which, if you squint a bit, is a "sequel" to an AP.
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If I were to pick anyone outside Paizo to be entrusted with taking care of Paizo's IP, LG with Jason and Neil would be near, if not at, the top of my list.
However, I do fully understand (and respect) James' take on it.
As to Jason's particular question: I personally would welcome awesome higher level stuff.
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Not to thread-jack, but I am finishing up a 15th-level adventure for Kobold Press that I will be adding Mythic onto. The point is to free a chained god. Be on the lookout for "Freeing Nethus."