Assuming there's no cleric in the party, how does a level 10 character heal up after a fight? Wand of Cure Light Wounds seems not effective at that level.
Why does it not seem effective at that level? Given the wealth you are supposed to have at level 10, its dirt cheap. That said, more then just the cleric can cast high level healing spells, its just a matter of if theres someone around willing.
i'm the only spellcaster in the group and I'm a magus.
I'd have to use the wand like 20 to 30 times to heal one person to full.
Nobody? Nobody in the group can cast any healing at all? Nobody?
I say, don't bother with healing then. Just go into the dungeons and die.
Harsh?
Not at all. Adventuring is dangerous. Very, very dangerous. If there were such a world full of monsters and magic and evil people who use magic and monsters to rule the world (or try to), then any crazy adventurers who decide it's a good idea to pit their skills and their wits against these monsters and madmen would have to know, HAVE TO KNOW, just how dangerous this is. They will be risking their lives CONSTANTLY, and they will be getting injured CONSTANTLY.
Anyone crazy enough to think that's a good idea is, well, crazy.
But yet, we play characters who are just that crazy all the time. We call them adventurers.
But anyone crazy enough to take all those risks, face all that danger, WITHOUT ANY HEALING AT ALL is not just crazy, they're suicidal. It's like trying to fly an airplane but nobody thought to bring along a pilot, or trying to climb Mt. Everest but nobody thought to bring along cold weather gear...
So hire a NPC healer to come with you. Someone take the Leadership feat and make him a permanent part of your group. Don't buy one wand of Cure Light Wounds, but rather, buy 20 of them (maybe someone could take the Craft Wands feat and make them at half price - one wand can be created every day you're in town for a mere 375 gp, plus maybe paying a local cleric 10gp each day to come cast the Cure Light Wounds spell for you, or just take the +5 DC to make the wand without the spell). Invest in other forms of healing, like items of regeneration (maybe a bit out of reach at level 10).
Or just commit suicide...
This was one of the things they tried to "fix" in 4th edition. Parties without healing are at a big disadvantage in 3rd/PF. Maybe even an untenable disadvantage unless the DM really pulls his punches.
You are high enough level now that enemies can cast Harm for 100+ damage a hit. Without a hard counter such as Heal the battle of attrition will be lost.
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If you have no cleric in the party, You have either any other form of divine caster with a wand of the highest level cure spell he can get, you have a bard/alchemist/etc. with a high level cure wand. The other option is DEATH. So, if you are in a party with no cleric, play a cleric. It may not seem all that fun, but by 10th level, you can get some fun domain abilities.
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Remember, a Cure Light Wounds wand can be used by any of the following classes: Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Oracle, Druid, Inquisitor, Paladin, Ranger, or Witch. So if you have any of those, give it to them.
Your best bet is to have a stockpile of wands for in-between combat heals (in which case it doesn't matter if it takes 10 minutes to heal the party back to full) as well as some potions of Restoration, Cure Critical Wounds, etc.
Look out, though - there are some things you really want high-level divine magic for. Any type of resurrection, obviously, but also for when you, say, fail a save vs. Feeblemind, or any of a variety of other non-damage ailments. Petition your GM for Leadership, because you're going to need it.
PS: Some of the creatures on the Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally have healing in a pinch. (e.g., the azatas)
Unlike DMBlake and ArmouredMonk13, I believe that a mid-level group can survive without healing. I've seen it done. But it makes Pathfinder a very different game, and not quite as Heroic with a Capital Hero! The mechanic shifts entirely. You have the option of:
Healing: Kill them all! Don't worry, the cleric can sew our heads back on later.
...or...
No Healing: Exploit the Stealth rules, the Bluff and Disguise rules, invisibility, flight - in short, exploit everything! If there's a fight, don't grandstand - go for the quickest possible kill. If the alarm goes up, run away! Wait til the heat's off to strike from a different angle. And remember - nobody is indispensable!
And so on, and so forth. It's the distinction between The A-Team and The Dirty Dozen, and while the second style has definite charms, it doesn't have the sheer visceral thrill of the first.
Of the “Dozen” eleven were killed. I’d really prefer not to have a 91% KIA rate per encounter, thankyouverymuch.
And you know, I'd also rather have the WBL spent on cool things to take down the foe and increase my suvivability rather than every GP being poured dwon the rathole of buying wands and potions.
Check out Torn Asunder that is a 3rd party book. It's mostly about critical hits, but it has a large section on rather more mundane forms of healing. Natural healing that would go up along with the "Heal" skill. Crazy, a skill like heal being useful over leveling.
Of the “Dozen” eleven were killed. I’d really prefer not to have a 91% KIA rate per encounter, thankyouverymuch.
And you know, I'd also rather have the WBL spent on cool things to take down the foe and increase my suvivability rather than every GP being poured dwon the rathole of buying wands and potions.
Arguably, WBL should be maintained as a good guideline. And to that end I suggest that you include the vlaue of currently existant consumable into WBL, but not expired or used up ones. Such that a wand of CLW with 25 charges remaining is valued at 375 gold counting against all characters WBL. However, at some point in time (hopefully by next level) the GM should audit characters and throw in some extra loot to keep everyone at WBL even if they have used 4000gp in consumables up to that point.
Edit: I feel like I wrote the above poorly, but the point is don't include used up consumables into the WBL accounting and you should be alright.
Look, if the players chose to throw all their funds down the rathole of wands of CLW and potions, why should they get more loot to make up for that?
True, WBL is only a guideline. But for example, if I am running a AP and the PC’s have blown all the loot on hookers/blow/clw wands, I don’t see why the DM has to boost the loot to make up for that.
Invest in a higher level wand such as a wand of cure serious wounds. Even being harder to activate, there's no limit to the number of attempts you can make. (Unless you roll a 1.)
Also make sure someone has a good healing skill. At Dc 20 for treat deadly wounds gives a character their level back in hit points. (effectively saving you a charge from a clw wand. Dc 25 gives level plus the treating characters wisdom bonus back in hit points.
I've run lots of games of D&D (of all editions) at all levels with no healers, and it works fine. But it only works fine if the GM really knows what they are doing and the party is willing to play cautiously and clever.
I've run lots of games of D&D (of all editions) at all levels with no healers, and it works fine. But it only works fine if the GM really knows what they are doing and the party is willing to play cautiously and clever.
That's all fine and well, and it certainly can be done. But, that same group, with the same group of cautious and clever players and the same GM who knows what he's doing, will be vastly more survivable if someone in that party can manage some degree of healing.
Without that, then any time a few crits go wrong, or the fighter's d20 betrays him with ridiculous amounts of misses, or the monsters get statistically improbable luck on their saves, etc., and suddenly the GM is fudging rolls or the players are looking for an exit strategy, or things just go horribly wrong.
How very unheroic to say "Well, Fred missed a bunch of swings and all those trolls jumping out of that fireball really screwed us up, so let's go back to town for 4 days of bed rest in the inn before we come back and try the next room."
On the other hand, a good healer can just say "Well, guys, that was ugly, but here, let's patch us up and move on and do better in the next encounter."
Yes, it can be done, but it's almost always unheroic and often suicidal - and when it isn't suicidal, it's because the GM "knows what he's doing" which is almost certainly a euphemism for "fudging rolls and preparing encounters so that the PCs don't die in nearly every session".
You can totally have a high level game with no/minimal healers in the party. Some PCs will need to max out their Heal and Use Magic Device skills. However, the GM has to be willing to play along a bit, too.
One thing I've done in this situation is to make sure that the party finds a good amount of healing items over the course of the adventure. It can be as simple as the defeated guards each having a potion of cure serious wounds; a defeated NPC cleric has a scroll of mass cure moderate wounds; the rescued prisoner has a few druid levels and hands out some goodberries; the strange magical idol can channel positive energy if the PCs perform a ritual; the alchemy lab contains a potion of false life and a few doses of restorative ointment; the PCs recover a wand of cure serious wounds or a staff of healing.
And, the party has to play it fairly defensively, too: use positioning, stealth, invisibility, and battlefield control tactics to avoid combat althogether if posssible, and to minimize the damage taken when it's not.
Even the Heal skill can help. Treating deadly wounds after the fight for 20hp, more if they're good at it. Long term care over night for another 20hp, not Magical amounts, but it helps.
Sure you burn through Healers kits like mad, but you're alive.
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The downtime rules have a Priest that you can hire, 3rd level but they've got some nicer abilities.
Effectively your strategy as stated up above is simply to make sure that your not playing like you've got a healer. Using Stealth/Diplomacy/Lateral Thinking to change how you approach problems. Fight when you've got a clear and quick victory, understand that you'll be out for a few days if you get really rocked up, etc. Talk to things more often, barter for passage or just bribe people outright. Be smart.
It can be an amazingly fun way to play the game honestly. Much more in line with what I consider a fun pace. Others will disagree as have already in the thread.
Without that, then any time a few crits go wrong, or the fighter's d20 betrays him with ridiculous amounts of misses, or the monsters get statistically improbable luck on their saves, etc., and suddenly the GM is fudging rolls or the players are looking for an exit strategy, or things just go horribly wrong.
I never fudge rolls, ever. But yes, if there are some lucky crits and things go south, the PCs are very likely to look for an exit strategy. Smart players would have had one prepared, though. Without healing, any fight is dangerous, so the goal is not to fight in the first place, or to make sure it's always in your favor.
How very unheroic to say "Well, Fred missed a bunch of swings and all those trolls jumping out of that fireball really screwed us up, so let's go back to town for 4 days of bed rest in the inn before we come back and try the next room."
I don't think that's unheroic--I think that sounds pretty damn reasonable and smart. "Things went badly, let's retreat." It is neither heroic nor unheroic. It is irrelevant to the issue of heroism.
On the other hand, a good healer can just say "Well, guys, that was ugly, but here, let's patch us up and move on and do better in the next encounter."
Some might consider that "easy" or "pampered" rather than "heroic."
Yes, it can be done, but it's almost always unheroic and often suicidal
How can something be both suicidal and unheroic? It seems that suicidal risks are the epitome of heroism.
Since you've called the way I enjoy playing unheroic, let me respond and say that your way of playing sounds like it lacks real risk and that I'd find it boring.
and when it isn't suicidal, it's because the GM "knows what he's doing" which is almost certainly a euphemism for "fudging rolls and preparing encounters so that the PCs don't die in nearly every session".
Again, I never fudge rolls, ever. What I meant is that the GM has to recognize the limitations of a party like that and avoid pushing them to take on challenges beyond their abilities. I run sandbox games, so the PCs drive it, but I do what I can not to highlight or push them towards things they can't handle yet.
One also has to be more careful about the sorts of enemies that exist--no magical healing also generally means no magical condition removal, so those sorts of things mean a lot more. I also don't use magical items as anything but MacGuffins, so there's no Wands of CLW, either.
In general, the PCs face large numbers of underleveled enemies, both because we prefer it aesthetically and because it fits their capabilities more. Lower level enemies have trouble hitting the PCs--since it is a game of attrition, every hit is dangerous to them, so it is still nerve wracking to fight.
And the only thing I really change is to double natural healing rates. It works. It just apparently might not work for everyone.