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Matt: actually, that's really interesting. I wasn't aware!The one I remember is after Madison Jefferies single handed kicked the collective asses of Omega flight, with a VW Bug* they discussed if he should be a full fledged Alphan. Aurora (with the Aurora persona of course) wnated to design his costume. Northstar snarks "Something skintight and form fitting now doubt." Aurora replies "Since when have you complained about well dressed men?"
The hints started dropping in the first six issues. Each issue had a backup dealing with one of the characters, and in the one where James Hudson shows up to recruit Northstar he's lounging by the pool with the expected bikini clad girl, but also a young man in a swimsuit, and during the pitch, Hudson says something about people like him becoming sports champions to get medals and girls, 'not that you seemed to care for the latter...'
Alpha Flight was a great book. And even the second and third tier characters, like Madison Jeffries and Diamond Lil, had a ton of potential. Still, it had it's 'Byrne-isms,' like that any woman with powers had to have some sort of self-control issues (Snowbird losing control and becoming animalistic, Marrina losing control and going all alien rampage-y, Aurora flipping back and forth between helpless Jean-Marie and trampy Aurora, or his similar work on Ororo, Jean, Sue and Wanda in other books, all of whom he had freak out or get mindjobbed by Psycho-Man and become a supervillain or lose control of their powers on occasion. At least he never got his flippers on Crystal or Sersi...).
I've been reading pretty much the same comics that you guys have been reading since I was six or seven so I understand wanting to see the characters close to the same as I read them.
But that's not what I was talking about in the OP and you guys bringing that up almost seems to be excusing the utterly vile stuff that Donald Glover took for even suggesting a black Spider-Man. There's no excuse, NONE, for racist crap that was thrown his way.
I wasn't blaming all of the opposition on racism.
But the racism that came at Donald Glover and Brian Michael Bendis were very real and as a longtime comic book fan really damn hurtful.
One of the things that white (or non-black) comic fans always bring up when it's even suggested that their favorite characters race is going to change is "Why dont they create a NEW character! Don't mess with mine!!"
Miles Morales IS a new character. He's NOT a black Peter Parker. It's a Marvel Legacy character with someone being really inspired to take up the mantle of someone he REALLY admired. But to a lot of people that was wrong. And you cant tell me with a straight face that if they replaced Peter Parker with an alien, mutant or woman that the venom would have been the same. It's wouldn't have.
When people talk about creating a "new" character they're not suggesting that you kill off or exile an existing character and replace them with a guy who has the same basic powers and uses the same super hero name. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what those people want.
They're suggesting you create an actual new character with their own superhero identity.
The entire concept of a "legacy character" especially one who doesn't have a preexisting connection to the original, is an awkward kludge at best. At worst it will turn the existing fanbase against the new character that their guy was killed off the make way for the replacement.
I happen to have a deep respect for canon and since movie changes often show up in the comics and force the creators (due to editorial mandate) to radically change they characters there, it really irks me if deep character changes are forced that way.
Explain to me how a change of ethnicity is a "deep character change."
The first Spider-Man movie made his webbing organic rather than a technological design he created. That strikes me as a definite change to canon, yet I perceived the outcry against it as relatively minor.
If the character comes from the same background, has the same powers, and the same struggles as depicted in the original story-telling, then what, really, is the difference?
Explain to me how a change of ethnicity is a "deep character change."
I think if you woke up tom tomorrow as a different race you'd think it was a big change.
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The first Spider-Man movie made his webbing organic rather than a technological design he created. That strikes me as a definite change to canon, yet I perceived the outcry against it as relatively minor.
I remember a fair bit of displeasure about how it detracted from Peter's later development as a smart kid who went on to hang out in the laboratory with some bigger genius names in the Marvel U, having invented his own web-shooters, webbing, spider-tracers, etc. The organic web-shooters, it was felt at the time, made him seem less smart and geeky and more lucky.
I agreed with that, but didn't really care enough to get worked up about it. It's one of those things like Wolverine being played by a six foot dude that I just shrugged and went along with.
I'm saving my comic book nerdrage for Hank Pym being replaced by Tony Stark as the creator of Ultron, because if there's one thing the Avengers franchise was suffering from was 'not enough Tony Stark.' :)
As for Spider-Peep, I don't care really if he's a woman, black, gay, a mutant, High Evolutionaried spider-turned-into-a-man, whatever. If the action and story is good, I'm there. Despite being 'the target demographic,' I never really identified with any of the (predominantly white male) superheroes anyway. I'm afraid of heights, so swinging from rooftops really isn't for me.
I also have a serious allergy to getting punched in the face, which seems to be a not-uncommon job hazard for super-heroes.
I care less about Idris Elba playing Heimdall than I did that a time displaced younger Brian Blessed was *not* playing Volstagg. Stupid time and aging and stuff!
I've been reading pretty much the same comics that you guys have been reading since I was six or seven so I understand wanting to see the characters close to the same as I read them.
But that's not what I was talking about in the OP and you guys bringing that up almost seems to be excusing the utterly vile stuff that Donald Glover took for even suggesting a black Spider-Man. There's no excuse, NONE, for racist crap that was thrown his way.
I wasn't blaming all of the opposition on racism.
But the racism that came at Donald Glover and Brian Michael Bendis were very real and as a longtime comic book fan really damn hurtful.
One of the things that white (or non-black) comic fans always bring up when it's even suggested that their favorite characters race is going to change is "Why dont they create a NEW character! Don't mess with mine!!"
Miles Morales IS a new character. He's NOT a black Peter Parker. It's a Marvel Legacy character with someone being really inspired to take up the mantle of someone he REALLY admired. But to a lot of people that was wrong. And you cant tell me with a straight face that if they replaced Peter Parker with an alien, mutant or woman that the venom would have been the same. It's wouldn't have.
And to clarify about the OP, You are correct. The crap that he put up with was totally uncalled for. I HOPE that it was just stupid people pounding away on a keyboard, because I personally find it hard to believe that people actually think and say crap like that in real life... But they probably do.
My only point is that there are OTHER reasons BESIDES racism that people may not want a change. Sometimes Racism IS the reason... but for some people it is not.
As a big fan of ultimate Peter Parker... replacing him with anyone would have annoyed me. Same with Hal Jordan. I LOVE that Character, and always have. I really can't stand John Stewart. I absolutely HATE Kyle Rayner and Guy Gardner. Not because of Race, but because they are taking something "I" like and giving it to other fans.
These characters are household names for a reason... Claiming that my fandom doesn't matter, and they need to grab new audiences by being drastic and edgy is fairly insulting.
The other problem with these changes a lot of the time is that eventually someone decides to bring back the original and now people get upset for dropping the ethnic character for the original white version.
Or you've just now got 2 of them around for no particular reason.
I don't think the Ultimate Spider-man will go that way, since Parker is still around (Or will be, once the "Superior" storyline wraps up) in the main universe. It's an issue in a lot of DC titles though.
TRUTH!
Green Lantern will never REALLY be Top Flight A-list... because even the FANS are torn on 'who' is green lantern? Flash is the same thing...
The originals ALWAYS seem to come back... but by then the fan base is split. Instead of having ONE book that sells well, they end up with 3 or 4 books that sell poorly.
I'm a little curious about the ultimate universe now days... I had heard Ultimatum was going to destroy that line... but it looks like it kept going afterward... But REALLY isn't the juggernaut that it used to be...
I think the Marvel Now 616 took everything they wanted from Ultimate universe... and maybe they'll just leave it be now... let them run out their stories without the 'competition'.
Let the changes stick a bit in the 'alternate' universe.
I happen to have a deep respect for canon and since movie changes often show up in the comics and force the creators (due to editorial mandate) to radically change they characters there, it really irks me if deep character changes are forced that way.Explain to me how a change of ethnicity is a "deep character change."
The first Spider-Man movie made his webbing organic rather than a technological design he created. That strikes me as a definite change to canon, yet I perceived the outcry against it as relatively minor.
If the character comes from the same background, has the same powers, and the same struggles as depicted in the original story-telling, then what, really, is the difference?
That it is a change to canon for the sake of change. As has been done numerous times, very gratuitously, for the X-Men and Spiderman movies, often to the detriment of the comic versions, which were then also changed in a chase by Marvel to cash in on the movie popularity.
And I don't like that. I'd like for characters to stay essentially the same in the movies as they have appeared in the comics. It worked excellently so far for the movies actually made by Marvel.
Explain to me how a change of ethnicity is a "deep character change."I think if you woke up tom tomorrow as a different race you'd think it was a big change.
Yes, but that's not the same thing. Peter Parker, the black kid turned super-hero, didn't turn black. He's been that way since birth. He's still the smart, geeky kid with the crush on the hot, popular girl. He's still the guy whose Uncle Ben dies. Still the one wearing the blue and red unitard leaving webs in his wake all over the Big Apple. None of that changes just because his ethnicity does.
Yes, but that's not the same thing. Peter Parker, the black kid turned super-hero, didn't turn black.Explain to me how a change of ethnicity is a "deep character change."I think if you woke up tom tomorrow as a different race you'd think it was a big change.
Sure he did. You read the comic on tueday he's a white kid. You read it thursday he's a black kid. Something certainly changed for you.
90% of it is accuracy. I've said above how silly it is to have a "Reality" of something fictional but that's how it is.
He's been that way since birth. He's still the smart, geeky kid with the crush on the hot, popular girl. He's still the guy whose Uncle Ben dies. Still the one wearing the blue and red unitard leaving webs in his wake all over the Big Apple. None of that changes just because his ethnicity does.
Well for one This Joke doesn't work anymore.
10% of it is the things race changes.
Like it or not, race matters in our society. Its something you have to consider with every interaction the character does. If white jock flash Thompson stuffs white nerd peter parker headfirst into a toilet he's a jerk jock. If he stuffs black peter parker headfirst into the toilet is he still a jerk jock or now a racist jerk jock? Do you have to include a multi racial football team all holding his ankles the same way you did the ludicrously interacial gangs on tv? Dunking someone's head in a toilet or hitting them for being a nerd has a sociopathic amount of tolerance to it in out society, but being racist is a societal sin.
So you are saying we should have an X-men team with an all american cast in the next movie: A Storm who's white, a Colossus without that silly russkij accent, a Nightcrawler who speaks american and doesn't have all that black skin (Daycrawler?), and so on? After all, if race is not a change...?
So you are saying we should have an X-men team with an all american cast in the next movie: A Storm who's white, a Colossus without that silly russkij accent, a Nightcrawler who speaks american and doesn't have all that black skin (Daycrawler?), and so on? After all, if race is not a change...?
1. Ethnicity is not the same as nationality. Colossus is from Russia. Storm is from North Africa.
2. Nightcrawler speaks English. He just happens to be from Germany. And for the record, his skin isn't black. It's dark blue.
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If it's nationality, not ethnicity, we should totally have Storm played by an African actress and not an American one! :)
As for Thor? Norse god. Not a lot of color among that group.
Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.
Matt: actually, that's really interesting. I wasn't aware!
The one I remember is after Madison Jefferies single handed kicked the collective asses of Omega flight, with a VW Bug* they discussed if he should be a full fledged Alphan. Aurora (with the Aurora persona of course) wnated to design his costume. Northstar snarks "Something skintight and form fitting now doubt." Aurora replies "Since when have you complained about well dressed men?"
There's also a touching scene when Walter comes back from the dead, where he comments that Aurora isn't the only one who missed him, strongly implying that Jean Paul was also attracted to Walter.
*** spoiler omitted **
Jeffries was far more awesome before Box. Though probably overpowerful.
I don't really remember those scenes registering at the time, but I've got basically no gaydar, so ...
alpha flight in general had some serious power level issues.
As for Thor? Norse god. Not a lot of color among that group.Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.
He actually has been about one of the characters with the most consistent backstory and continuity. Where do you get those "facts" from?
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My rule of thumb for racial casting is: "Try to keep things as close to the source material as possible. However, if somebody is good (and I mean REALLY GOOD) at fitting the character without the racial change causing other problems, then it can and will work."
Examples:
Perry White payed by Lawrence Fishburne - This was one of the cases where switching the race not only didn't bother me, but knowing Fishburne's abilities and demeanor, I saw this as actually "perfect casing".... It's just a shame he had so little screen time and it was in a movie that I thought was painfully dreadful. Still, I put no blame on Fishburne or his performance. (Man of Steel: WORKED)
Peltz and Rathbone playing characters of a race that is a fantasy world's equivalent to Eskimos - Dear God NO. Their performances did not merit the switch, and even so none of the rest of the tribe were switched to match. The shot of them amongst "their people" looked ridiculous. I don't care how good of an acting job is or how awesome an actor is, you can't have Morgan Freeman playing a Grand Dragon. (Last Airbender: DIDN'T WORK)
Now, these are extreme cases: one where the race was so out of place it was an obvious error, and another were the character wasn't all that important so nobody would care. But in the middle, I still stick with my rule of thumb. So in short, YES, a black person can play Peter Parker... but (and I admit this is unfair) the person has to be damn good in the role. And in Peter's case, it's not an issue of race. It's more an issue of appearance.
Yes, there is a difference.
Comic book fandom is very picky over details. Hell, most fandoms are. People b****ed over having a blond James Bond. A sudden change of a character from white skin to black skin is highly distracting. BUT if the actor and/or writer can pull it off gloriously (like Nick Fury), then it not only overcomes the change in the character's appearance, but it ends up standing out as a GREAT performance.
Pseudo-Side Note: I'm loving Miles as Spiderman. I also thought Peter's death was extremely well handled. In fact, I prefer having Peter's story with a conclusion. It makes that line have a definitive beginning, middle, and end; something most comic lines sorely lack. And personally, if they ever adapted the new Ultimate Spiderman to screen, I would be pissed off if somebody casted Miles with a non-black actor without any having any logic or massive talent to back up the reason for the switch.
Also, so long as the reasoning for being for or against loose-racial casting can apply both ways, there is no issue of racism.
If it's nationality, not ethnicity, we should totally have Storm played by an African actress and not an American one! :)
Africa's a continent, not a nation :)
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He actually has been about one of the characters with the most consistent backstory and continuity. Where do you get those "facts" from?As for Thor? Norse god. Not a lot of color among that group.Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.
Marvel Thor has alternately been one of a group of space aliens who were worshipped as gods by the Norse to actually being a god with magical / supernatural powers and heritage, so his origin isn't hugely consistent. The movie Thor seems to be more on the 'space alien' side of things, with the Bifrost being a big spinny machine that teleports people from planet to planet (with Jotunheim, for instance, being pretty clearly depicted as a planet, and not an alternate dimension).
Simonson's Thor, very strongly rooted in magic and Norse myth, was quite different than Lee and Kirby's Thor, with Asgardians riding around a high-tech Asgard on jet-cycles.
Marvel Thor has alternately been one of a group of space aliens who were worshipped as gods by the Norse to actually being a god with magical / supernatural powers and heritage, so his origin isn't hugely consistent. The movie Thor seems to be more on the 'space alien' side of things, with the Bifrost being a big spinny machine that teleports people from planet to planet (with Jotunheim, for instance, being pretty clearly depicted as a planet, and not an alternate dimension).
Simonson's Thor, very strongly rooted in magic and Norse myth, was quite different than Lee and Kirby's Thor, with Asgardians riding around a high-tech Asgard on jet-cycles.
Early Marvel is high on the insanity factor and early continuity is mostly forgotten nowadays. The base concepts of Thor have not changed at all over the entire time, though. He's the son of Odin, his main weapon is the uru-hammer Mjolnir, he has issues with his half-brother Loki, he is Asgards greatest warrior and also a stout defender of Midgard. There are of course innumerable storylines which worked with his supporting cast, but the core of the character has pretty much always stayed the same. So I don't get why his backstory would be more convoluted than the one of any other character who has stayed popular for so long. I maintain that it actually is much less convoluted than Spiderman's.
Mind you, Idris Elba as Heimdall was pretty awesome in Thor, so I am not that opposed to changing the race of some of those gods. Making all of the norse gods black dudes and gals would feel very strange, though. They are norse gods, after all.
Reacting to changes to characters' appearances when they go on the big screen?
Man, I'm still annoyed by how they changed the looks of the Harry Potter characters.
He actually has been about one of the characters with the most consistent backstory and continuity. Where do you get those "facts" from?As for Thor? Norse god. Not a lot of color among that group.Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.
What "facts" are you referring to?
(with Jotunheim, for instance, being pretty clearly depicted as a planet, and not an alternate dimension).
Jotunheim might be a "planet", but Asgard itself certainly wasn't, at least not what we saw.
Outside of some very, very weird tech structures, I'm not even sure what Asgard was supposed to be, actually.
And comic/movie continuity and all that, buuuuuuuuuut...
... why weren't Sif and Thor togeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
/myth whine
What "facts" are you referring to?He actually has been about one of the characters with the most consistent backstory and continuity. Where do you get those "facts" from?As for Thor? Norse god. Not a lot of color among that group.Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.
Please look up a few lines to see what I originally quoted from you. That is a statement which asserts that "Marvel Thor is already so messed up" as a fact. On which I call you out, because Thor actually is one of the most consistent characters in the Marvel stable.
Please look up a few lines to see what I originally quoted from you. That is a statement which asserts that "Marvel Thor is already so messed up" as a fact. On which I call you out, because Thor actually is one of the most consistent characters in the Marvel stable.
I think you have a funny definition of fact, it was clearly an opinion. And, if you reread, you may notice that I'm not addressing any sort of internal character consistency at all.
When you've grown up with actual Nordic mythology, the Marvel "interpretation" is decidedly... weird (to be polite about it). He could be a Chinese guy in a dodge charger for all the difference it'd make. If I had to pick a comic book source for Norse mythology, I'd go with the excellent Valhalla comic over anything Marvel.
For reference, your Thor vs my Thor. And yes, I realize the inherent unfairness in picking a Rob Liefeld example. I'm petty like that. ;)
(In the interest of fairness, here's Thor in a wedding dress)
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People are confusing characteristics with character.
Pete's character is nerdy, photographer, who lives with his Aunt and makes bad decisions. Great power and great responsibility, Spider-Powers.
His characteristics are Caucasian with cowlick, brown eyes and brown hair. You can change ANY characteristic and he's still the same CHARACTER.
Please look up a few lines to see what I originally quoted from you. That is a statement which asserts that "Marvel Thor is already so messed up" as a fact. On which I call you out, because Thor actually is one of the most consistent characters in the Marvel stable.I think you have a funny definition of fact, it was clearly an opinion. And, if you reread, you may notice that I'm not addressing any sort of internal character consistency at all.
When you've grown up with actual Nordic mythology, the Marvel "interpretation" is decidedly... weird (to be polite about it). He could be a Chinese guy in a dodge charger for all the difference it'd make. If I had to pick a comic book source for Norse mythology, I'd go with the excellent Valhalla comic over anything Marvel.
For reference, your Thor vs my Thor. And yes, I realize the inherent unfairness in picking a Rob Liefeld example. I'm petty like that. ;)
(In the interest of fairness, here's Thor in a wedding dress)
Nonetheless, Marvel has stuck with their definition of the character for five decades now. That is why I say he is one of the most consistent ones they got.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?
Black Captain America and Black Thor.
Standback and watch the craniums exploding.
Want to see a black racist's head explode?
White guy playing Black Panther.
Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.
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... why weren't Sif and Thor togeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
/myth whine
Heck, why doesn't Sif have hair made of impossibly fine dwarf-spun gold? And if a black Heimdall is a problem, how did Asgard end up with a tiny sub-kingdom full of Mongols (imaginatively named 'Hogun's Land'), of whom Hogun the decidedly-not-a-Viking Grim is a representative? How come Asgard has *thousands* of 'gods' running around, like Fandral, god of Errol Flynn movies, and Volstagg, god of Eating and Boasting, when there should be, like, forty, tops (and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Einherjar). Magni? Modi? Vidar? Tyr? Skadi is an evil serpent-goddess? Loki is or is not the father of Hela, *and even Loki and Hela aren't sure what's the real answer?* Aiee!
Silly comic-book Thor!
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Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?
Black Captain America and Black Thor.
Standback and watch the craniums exploding.
Want to see a black racist's head explode?
White guy playing Black Panther.
Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.
False Equivalence.
Again, character vs characteristic.
Black Panther's character is the King of the most advanced nation in Africa, he is supposed to be a character conscious of culture and race.
Spider-Man has zero to do with race.
And as to a Black Captain America that's been done.
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The premise of Captain America is about someone considered unfit or unlikely to be a part of the war effort becoming one of it's greatest heroes. It starts out as a sort of underdog story.
If anything, having Captain America be cast as a black man, or a woman, or some other group that would have been similarly regarded as 'unfit' for the role of super-soldier back in the '40s could make the premise even stronger than having Nazi-smasher Captain America be the blondest blue-eyed 'Aryan' stereotype Hitler could have swooned over.
The 'master race' being humiliated over and over by a swarthy mongrel? Poetry. The only thing that could have rubbed more salt in the wound if Captain America was a Jewish Romani homosexual who got his powers after a failed attempt to throw him into an oven...
Indeed, given how some super-hero origins tend to go (exposed to deadly X and get powers instead of dead), it would fit the pattern for at least a few metahumans to have first manifested in concentration camps, to the distress of their would-be executioners. That wouldn't have been a kid-friendly comics-code-approvable origin story, back in the days of the Invaders or Justice Society books, but would have fit in fine in the 'darker and edgier' Image days.
A white Black Panther? That doesn't really work, unless Wakanda is like South Africa, a white-dominated colonial nation on the African continent.
A white Falcon or a black Mr. Fantastic or an Asian Iron Man? Sure. There's nothing terribly relevant to the characterization or story about Sam Wilson or Reed Richards or Tony Stark's race.
We need a white Blade.
Reboot the franchise.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?
Black Captain America and Black Thor.
Standback and watch the craniums exploding.
Want to see a black racist's head explode?
White guy playing Black Panther.
Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.
False Equivalence.
Again, character vs characteristic.
Black Panther's character is the King of the most advanced nation in Africa, he is supposed to be a character conscious of culture and race.
Spider-Man has zero to do with race.
And as to a Black Captain America that's been done.
Wait, I've been reading this entire thread that the race of the character doesn't matter, and now I'm told 'except for Black Panther, because he's from Africa'?
Funny, I thought there were whites in Africa too.
The premise of Captain America is about someone considered unfit or unlikely to be a part of the war effort becoming one of it's greatest heroes. It starts out as a sort of underdog story.
If anything, having Captain America be cast as a black man, or a woman, or some other group that would have been similarly regarded as 'unfit' for the role of super-soldier back in the '40s could make the premise even stronger than having Nazi-smasher Captain America be the blondest blue-eyed 'Aryan' stereotype Hitler could have swooned over.
The 'master race' being humiliated over and over by a swarthy mongrel? Poetry. The only thing that could have rubbed more salt in the wound if Captain America was a Jewish Romani homosexual who got his powers after a failed attempt to throw him into an oven...
Indeed, given how some super-hero origins tend to go (exposed to deadly X and get powers instead of dead), it would fit the pattern for at least a few metahumans to have first manifested in concentration camps, to the distress of their would-be executioners. That wouldn't have been a kid-friendly comics-code-approvable origin story, back in the days of the Invaders or Justice Society books, but would have fit in fine in the 'darker and edgier' Image days.
A white Black Panther? That doesn't really work, unless Wakanda is like South Africa, a white-dominated colonial nation on the African continent.
A black hero trashing the Nazis would certainly work as an even bigger insult the master race purity. Sadly he wouldn't have worked as a symbol for America in the 40s. We were far too racist for that. It certainly wouldn't have been a race neutral character.
I find it hard to see how a White Panther, symbol of a white-dominated colonial national in Africa could be anything but a villain. I suppose you could have a white guy in a Black Panther disguise fighting to overthrow the apartheid regime, but that runs into issues of it's own:...
So the descendants of white colonists are fit only to be villains... Unless you are from the US. Do you think the Colonial history of Africa can be easily divided into the good guy indigenous Africans and the evil cardboard cut out colonialists.
The 90s Spider-Man cartoon did a multi-episode story featuring WWII era heroes and the return of Captain America.
One of the heroes was a black man who had to keep his race completely hidden to even function as a hero. There was even a white guy who posed as his secret identity when dealing with the army/government and other heroes because of fears of how white people at the time were likely to react to a black man with super powers fighting alongside a bunch of white people.
We need a white Blade.
Reboot the franchise.
I'd read it.
Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?
Black Captain America and Black Thor.
Standback and watch the craniums exploding.
Want to see a black racist's head explode?
White guy playing Black Panther.
Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.
False Equivalence.
Again, character vs characteristic.
Black Panther's character is the King of the most advanced nation in Africa, he is supposed to be a character conscious of culture and race.
Spider-Man has zero to do with race.
And as to a Black Captain America that's been done.
Wait, I've been reading this entire thread that the race of the character doesn't matter, and now I'm told 'except for Black Panther, because he's from Africa'?
Funny, I thought there were whites in Africa too.
not in tchallas position and certainly not with his heritage. I guarantee you would have a problem with me as the new captain britian, for a number of reasons, for example.
So the descendants of...The premise of Captain America is about someone considered unfit or unlikely to be a part of the war effort becoming one of it's greatest heroes. It starts out as a sort of underdog story.
If anything, having Captain America be cast as a black man, or a woman, or some other group that would have been similarly regarded as 'unfit' for the role of super-soldier back in the '40s could make the premise even stronger than having Nazi-smasher Captain America be the blondest blue-eyed 'Aryan' stereotype Hitler could have swooned over.
The 'master race' being humiliated over and over by a swarthy mongrel? Poetry. The only thing that could have rubbed more salt in the wound if Captain America was a Jewish Romani homosexual who got his powers after a failed attempt to throw him into an oven...
Indeed, given how some super-hero origins tend to go (exposed to deadly X and get powers instead of dead), it would fit the pattern for at least a few metahumans to have first manifested in concentration camps, to the distress of their would-be executioners. That wouldn't have been a kid-friendly comics-code-approvable origin story, back in the days of the Invaders or Justice Society books, but would have fit in fine in the 'darker and edgier' Image days.
A white Black Panther? That doesn't really work, unless Wakanda is like South Africa, a white-dominated colonial nation on the African continent.
A black hero trashing the Nazis would certainly work as an even bigger insult the master race purity. Sadly he wouldn't have worked as a symbol for America in the 40s. We were far too racist for that. It certainly wouldn't have been a race neutral character.
I find it hard to see how a White Panther, symbol of a white-dominated colonial national in Africa could be anything but a villain. I suppose you could have a white guy in a Black Panther disguise fighting to overthrow the apartheid regime, but that runs into issues of it's own:...
colonial history? It would come pretty damn close, though not one to one.
I don't think you should be allowed to b$$$$ about Miles as Spiderman until you actually read Ultimate Spiderman. I don't care what a character's race, gender, or sexual desires are. What I do care about, is how they're written, and folks Bendis made one hell of a good story. I've just finished the first volume featuring Miles Morales, and it was the perfect intro to the character. Further more the artwork is gorgeous, and the story fits neatly into the continuity of the Ultimates Universe. Honestly, I can't think of a single problem in the actual work itself, and if you have to be biased about it (as a peter parker fan, a classics nazi, or as a racist a*%+*!%) you're really only robbing yourself of a good expansion to a great storyline.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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not in tchallas position and certainly not with his heritage. I guarantee you would have a problem with me as the new captain britian, for a number of reasons, for example.
I just found it funny to turn the OP's statement on its head and watch the reaction.
(Aside, it's one of the (to me valid) complaints about the new Batwing.*)
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Yeah, that's annoying. I wasn't that impressed with Batwing anyway, but I liked the basic concept. Tying into admittedly fictionalized African problems - child soldiers and the like.not in tchallas position and certainly not with his heritage. I guarantee you would have a problem with me as the new captain britian, for a number of reasons, for example.I just found it funny to turn the OP's statement on its head and watch the reaction.
(Aside, it's one of the (to me valid) complaints about the new Batwing.*)
indeed, that was a major, major disappointment that I would understand if it ended the book.
not in tchallas position and certainly not with his heritage. I guarantee you would have a problem with me as the new captain britian, for a number of reasons, for example.I just found it funny to turn the OP's statement on its head and watch the reaction.
(Aside, it's one of the (to me valid) complaints about the new Batwing.*)
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that said this remAins a false equivalence-Peter Parker is not the king of queens, descenDed from a line of nobility.
Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?
Black Captain America and Black Thor.
Standback and watch the craniums exploding.
Want to see a black racist's head explode?
White guy playing Black Panther.
Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.
And since I was reading and following the book at the time I don't recall their being as big of a backlash as there was for Miles Morales.