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But..I love hentai....
Or try reading a Tarzan book. I picked one up at random - Tarzan and the Lost Empire, IIRC - and put it back down after 12 or so pages. Reading a diatribe about how wonderful Africa would be if we could get rid of the all of the blacks killed my interest in Burroughs.
Yeah, I got the feeling they were probably like that from reading the JC Mars books.
I've got the first one around here somewhere. Probably read it some day...
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Card was, after all, all for boycotts...when it served his goal. Now people are cutting into his money fort, it's time to suggest we should all be totally tolerant of other views...specifically, the view where he gets your cash.
That would be closer to boycotting an author just because he's an outspoken Christian.
Like, say, C. S. Lewis, now that we're on that topic.
This is why I don't purchase PF materials. PF uses Lovecraft inspired themes. Lovecraft was a racist. Ergo, if you support PF, you are supporting racism.
I think that argument was already rebutted?
The thing is, if a new Mountains of Madness movie meant that X% of every ticket sold was going to be directly funneled to the Aryan Nation? I'd refrain from buying the ticket, because I don't really care to donate to that group. I believe they have the right to say what they want, but I also believe I have the right to not give them my money. But that's not the case. When a Lovecraft movie is made, no one involved is funneling revenue to the AB or whomever. My seeing movies based on his works in no way supports the dead author's Nazism, financially or otherwise.
Last I heard though, neither C.S. Lewis, nor his buddy J.R.R. Tolkien never sat on the board that advocated capital punishment for those who engaged in a private lifestyle that they themselves could not abide.
I didn't realize I'd suggested they did.
As I recall, Tolkien was very much in the "a story is just a story, not an excuse to indoctrinate your audience to your way of thinking" camp, which was something both Lewis and the guy with the Golden Compass were big proponents of.
I only brought up Lewis as a counterpoint to the mention of Pullman (is that his name?) I don't think anyone's been saying that either of the three were guilty of what you suggest.
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I keep thinking about all the people who are involved in this movie. We are talking about punishing the investors, the other producers, all fo the cast, many of the workers because we do nto like what the original author likes/hates.
Ignoring that fact that this isn't about what Card merely believes or says...
All the cameramen, grips, assistants, scriptwriters, editor(s), all the actors, the director, the producers, the special effects guys, the marketing, all of them got paid for their work already. Done deal. That's one of the reasons they are all union: to make sure they get paid for their work.
Yes, the producers (including Card), probably the director, the investors/studio, probably Ford, and probably Kingsley are all hoping for a percentage of the profits as a bonus on top of what they were already paid. But I don't feel too sorry for them because they all damn well knew what Card's beliefs are when they signed on to the project; they didn't get to making the amounts of money they do by not doing their due diligence and research first. It's likely that at least at few were counting on the controversy to stir up publicity. So no, no sympathy from me.
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This is why I don't purchase PF materials. PF uses Lovecraft inspired themes. Lovecraft was a racist. Ergo, if you support PF, you are supporting racism.I think that argument was already rebutted?
The thing is, if a new Mountains of Madness movie meant that X% of every ticket sold was going to be directly funneled to the Aryan Nation? I'd refrain from buying the ticket, because I don't really care to donate to that group. I believe they have the right to say what they want, but I also believe I have the right to not give them my money. But that's not the case. When a Lovecraft movie is made, no one involved is funneling revenue to the AB or whomever. My seeing movies based on his works in no way supports the dead author's Nazism, financially or otherwise.
Pres Man is right, supporting Paizo is supporting HPL, so Pathfinder then becomes the gateway drug to racist HPL writings.
Paizo even lists the racists work on their suggested reading list, and while any books sales related to buying HPLs work may not directly fund racism, it does promote it and expose people to it.Gamer to Stormtrooper? You do the math.
Paizo may need to revisit their adoration of HPL and associated content (re: free money) that they put in their products if they really want to be considered a progressive company. Racism doesn’t just need to be funded – if you put Mein Kampf on a suggested reading list the money from those book sales of people buying the book doesn’t need to go to a political organization – the person in question is still exposed to racist ideologies when they read the book.
My suggestion – Paizo immediately drop all things related to HPL, and take him off their suggested reading list. Otherwise they are promoting racist ideology, and are honoring a racist and promoting tolerance towards racist language which was found in his works.
But as long as the money doesn't go to Hater's Anonymous, Paizo is in the clear.
Pres Man is right
I think we've taken this joke far enough. People might think you're serious.
Comrade Mieville sez: No, read Lovecraft!!!
Comrade Anklebiter prefers Celine and Hamsun.
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But as long as the money doesn't go to Hater's Anonymous, Paizo is in the clear.
Wouldn't Hater's Anonymous be an organization that tries to help former/recovering haters to change their lives? In that case, wouldn't it be appropriate if some of the money was going to such a group to help counter-act the spread of the message of hatred?
This is why I don't purchase PF materials. PF uses Lovecraft inspired themes. Lovecraft was a racist. Ergo, if you support PF, you are supporting racism.I think that argument was already rebutted?
The thing is, if a new Mountains of Madness movie meant that X% of every ticket sold was going to be directly funneled to the Aryan Nation? I'd refrain from buying the ticket, because I don't really care to donate to that group. I believe they have the right to say what they want, but I also believe I have the right to not give them my money. But that's not the case. When a Lovecraft movie is made, no one involved is funneling revenue to the AB or whomever. My seeing movies based on his works in no way supports the dead author's Nazism, financially or otherwise.Pres Man is right, supporting Paizo is supporting HPL, so Pathfinder then becomes the gateway drug to racist HPL writings.
Paizo even lists the racists work on their suggested reading list, and while any books sales related to buying HPLs work may not directly fund racism, it does promote it and expose people to it.
Gamer to Stormtrooper? You do the math.Paizo may need to revisit their adoration of HPL and associated content (re: free money) that they put in their products if they really want to be considered a progressive company. Racism doesn’t just need to be funded – if you put Mein Kampf on a suggested reading list the money from those book sales of people buying the book doesn’t need to go to a political organization – the person in question is still exposed to racist ideologies when they read the book.
My suggestion – Paizo immediately drop all things related to HPL, and take him off their suggested reading list. Otherwise they are promoting racist ideology, and are honoring a racist and promoting tolerance towards racist language which was found in his works.
When I buy a Paizo book, trace for me the EXACT path where my money might end up in the pocket of an organization that is explicitly promoting racism.
My bank account -> Paizo -> ???? -> Racist organization
If you can't fill in the ????, your comparison is flawed and not actually a comparison.
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When I buy a Paizo book, trace for me the EXACT path where my money might end up in the pocket of an organization that is explicitly promoting racism.
My bank account -> Paizo -> ???? -> Racist organization
If you can't fill in the ????, your comparison is flawed and not actually a comparison.
Reading Comp 101
Where did I say that they were funding a racist organization? Oh, that's right, I didn't.
What I did say was
Paizo may need to revisit their adoration of HPL and associated content (re: free money) that they put in their products if they really want to be considered a progressive company. Racism doesn’t just need to be funded – if you put Mein Kampf on a suggested reading list the money from those book sales of people buying the book doesn't need to go to a political organization – the person in question is still exposed to racist ideologies when they read the book.
So they are still promoting a racist writer.
Money doesn't need to go to the North Hammer Skins or the Order of the Silver Twilight to promote racism, all you need to do to foster racism is to promote the writer and his literature.
They're helpless without the funding, because there's a second disconnect being glossed over: "saying mean things about something" =/= actively attempting to outlaw that thing. There's a huge gap between saying you disapprove of gay relationships, vs. actively trying to outlaw them. The latter requires lobbying, which requires funding. Say what you like about OSC, at least he's transparent: if he gets a lot of money, he uses it to fund that lobbying as well as to simply advocate for it.
So, as soon as we see how buying Lovecraft books directly empowers the AB to outlaw interracial marriage and overturn civil rights, we'll have a good comparison.
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They're helpless without the funding, because there's a second disconnect being glossed over: "saying mean things about something" =/= actively attempting to outlaw that thing. There's a huge gap between saying you disapprove of gay relationships, vs. actively trying to outlaw them. The latter requires lobbying, which requires funding. Say what you like about OSC, at least he's transparent: if he gets a lot of money, he uses it to fund that lobbying as well as to simply advocate for it.
So, as soon as we see how buying Lovecraft books directly empowers the AB to outlaw interracial marriage and overturn civil rights, we'll have a good comparison.
So by your logic then, it's ok for Paizo (or any other company) to list say - Mein Kampf in their suggested reading list? Because Hitler doesn't actually get any money out of it and the ideas contain therein are harmless? Same for the Turner Diaries or Serpents Walk, is that about right?
So it's ok to promote racism, racist writers or racist ideologies as long as the funding gained from selling said products that promote the same does not go to a racist organization? That makes sense.
I can get high off of the methane gas in here.
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"My books are about killing God.”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/12/1071125644900.htmlPhilip Pullman, Author of the Golden Compass. What is worse? Pushing your beliefs through Children's books or writing a book that doesn't push your beliefs and then using the proceeds to support your beliefs?
Get off your high horse and quit arguing symantics.
Like C.S. Lewis? I'm a Jew and I liked Chronicles of Narnia and I liked the Golden Compass (and not the second book at all).
I also liked the Red Prophet by OSC and the Earthborn quintet.
Kirth's got it right though. OSC uses his money to oppress my friends, family and other random people I don't know. HPL, RH and ERB might have been racists, but their work doesn't fund the Ku Klux Klan. Just to Godwin this thread, Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, and I've read that too...its purchase didn't go to fund Nazism.
You can write evil stuff, you can be a bad person, and you can even support disgusting causes. Just don't expect me to help you do so.
godwin's law strikes again
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Or try reading a Tarzan book. I picked one up at random - Tarzan and the Lost Empire, IIRC - and put it back down after 12 or so pages. Reading a diatribe about how wonderful Africa would be if we could get rid of the all of the blacks killed my interest in Burroughs.
There's actually little evidence Burroughs was a racist per se. He goes on diatribes at least as virulent about various European peoples on several occasions. He was an elitist, and a bit misanthropic regarding the vast mass of humanity, but seems to have been equally so regarding various different races.
Now the Tarzan books can often come across as a bit racist because the majority of said 'vast masses' are black (since it takes place in Africa), while Tarzan happens to be white...but in the books where he actually enters civilization/leaves Africa, most white people are portrayed every bit as badly as the black people. Tarzan isn't superior because he's white, he's just superior.
Sorry for the tangent, but Burroughs being accused of racism is a pet peeve of mine.
On the actual topic:
Do some research, folks. If the production company is actually donating a significant fraction of the profits to LGBT rights organizations (as someone stated, but nobody's cited as of yet), a lot of the arguments advanced for the boycott in this thread stop being valid. So...uh, find that out and make a decision. Me? I don't care enough to see it in theaters, so I'll watch it when I can do so for free and avoid the whole thing.
Philip Pullman, Author of the Golden Compass. What is worse? Pushing your beliefs through Children's books or writing a book that doesn't push your beliefs and then using the proceeds to support your beliefs?
Assuming that your beliefs involve trying to deny a marginalized class of people their fundamental rights, then the latter, demonstrably.
Also, there are 78,091 products in Amazon.com's Christian Children's Books category (as a really hilarious comparison, searching "Atheist Children's Books" turns up 44 results, half of which are cell phone cases for some reason). I'd tell you to remove the plank from your own eye before you decide to criticize an atheist author for writing about his belief system in a children's book, but the word "plank" doesn't really do it justice; it's more like a full-fledged 17th century Spanish galleon lodged squarely in your cornea.
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So by your logic then, it's ok for Paizo (or any other company) to list say - Mein Kampf in their suggested reading list? Because Hitler doesn't actually get any money out of it and the ideas contain therein are harmless? Same for the Turner Diaries or Serpents Walk, is that about right?
So it's ok to promote racism, racist writers or racist ideologies as long as the funding gained from selling said products that promote the same does not go to a racist organization? That makes sense.
I can get high off of the methane gas in here.
Actually it does make sense. When my friend suggests reading John Carter there's absolutely no inkling that he's promoting the author's racist tendencies.
Why, you ask? Because I'm a free-thinking adult and any subversive albeit disgusting undertones in a novel aren't going to change how I feel about black people, Jews, homosexuals, god, etc. Paizo making a list of the works of FICTION that inspired their world and their game is a far cry from supporting the vile beliefs of those authors.
Though I do agree that, perhaps, a disclaimer is in order.
As to your original (absurd) suggestion, sure. If Mein Kampf had long passages about a hero and his quest to slay a dragon, or had a really intense time-travel subplot, or something similar, I could see fit to it being in the company of Game of Thrones and Wizard's First Rule. Until then, though, you're just being silly.
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Actually it does make sense. When my friend suggests reading John Carter there's absolutely no inkling that he's promoting the author's racist tendencies.
Why, you ask? Because I'm a free-thinking adult and any subversive albeit disgusting undertones in a novel aren't going to change how I feel about black people, Jews, homosexuals, god, etc. Paizo making a list of the works of FICTION that inspired their world and their game is a far cry from supporting the vile beliefs of those authors.
How so?
If a writer was unapologetically racist how is listing their work not promoting racism, even if the work in question is FICTION?You are promoting it by listing, incorporating and venerating the authors work in your own, and also directing people to read that authors work. Author is racist = promoting the reading of a racist authors work.
And btw, Paizo doesn't just "list" HPLs works of FICTION, they incorporate it into their core game and campaign world - take a look at the Bestiary 4 cover, on it you will see Cthulhu (or his Star Spawn) - so they have heavily utilized HPLs FICTION into their own.
Maybe popularity and appeal of the fictitious content override the negative of the authors racism? Is there a metric for that - how much money you can make of the racists work?
As to your original suggestion, sure. If Mein Kampf had long passages about a hero and his quest to slay a dragon, or had a really intense time-travel subplot, or something similar, I could see fit to it being in the company of Game of Thrones and Wizard's First Rule.
So as long as the work is FICTION and racist organizations do not get any of the money then it's ok to promote a racist writers work. Ok, got it.
We can't simply ignore thousands of years of human history. Which we would essentially have to do, to remove Lovecraft and thousands of other bigoted writers. It is possible to read a writer who holds crappy views and still enjoy the story. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Lovecraft - I enjoy the Call of Cthluhu Roleplay, and that's about it - but to believe that anyone who reads his stories is going to come away with the message, 'Gee, intergalactic horrors are out there, better hate me some Jews while I have the chance' is absurd.
The truth is Lovecraft's writings represent a different time. In 50 years time we'll be seen as backwards idiots, I hope, for our lack of inclusion with gay and trans folks. That doesn't mean I'd want to see David Eddings or Terry Pratchet's works burned. Neither of those include many notable gay or trans characters (baring Monstrous Regiment) but that doesn't make them awful books. Just products of our times.
Card, however, is actively trying to harm people - something none of those authors can say. It's not his works that are a danger, but the money from those works funding a bigot. He will take money from this money and use it to promote that hate. Lovecraft never promoted his view, because it was the view of the day, although his later writings do seem to suggest a changing of opinion, from what I'm told.
When I buy a Paizo book, trace for me the EXACT path where my money might end up in the pocket of an organization that is explicitly promoting racism.
My bank account -> Paizo -> ???? -> Racist organization
If you can't fill in the ????, your comparison is flawed and not actually a comparison.
Reading Comp 101
Where did I say that they were funding a racist organization? Oh, that's right, I didn't.
What I did say was
Paizo may need to revisit their adoration of HPL and associated content (re: free money) that they put in their products if they really want to be considered a progressive company. Racism doesn’t just need to be funded – if you put Mein Kampf on a suggested reading list the money from those book sales of people buying the book doesn't need to go to a political organization – the person in question is still exposed to racist ideologies when they read the book.So they are still promoting a racist writer.
Money doesn't need to go to the North Hammer Skins or the Order of the Silver Twilight to promote racism, all you need to do to foster racism is to promote the writer and his literature.
I'm discussing boycotts and how money is spent.
So, if you want to make an equivalency claim between a boycott of Ender's Game and buying Paizo products, you will need to demonstrate how my money will go to groups that promote hate.
Ender's Game doesn't promote homophobia. It's the author who does so with his money that he makes from his job. He does so by working for and contributing money to the National Organization for Marriage.
If you want to draw a comparison with that situation to Paizo, you need to demonstrate how they are using my money to support groups that promote racism.
Either you are talking about the boycott, or you aren't.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I can get high off of the methane gas in here.
Wait...you can get high off methane gas? Or is this just counting the asphyxiation/oxygen deprivation experience as a high?
Let's make sure we're not mixing misleading drug information in with our very important discussion of civil liberties and such.
I can get high off of the methane gas in here.
Wait...you can get high off methane gas? Or is this just counting the asphyxiation/oxygen deprivation experience as a high?
Let's make sure we're not mixing misleading drug information in with our very important discussion of civil liberties and such.
Remember, everyone, misleading drug information discussion belongs in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew subforum.
So as long as the work is FICTION and racist organizations do not get any of the money then it's ok to promote a racist writers work. Ok, got it.
No, it's fine to promote any writer's work, regardless of their personal racism, because promoting someone's work is not the same as promoting their beliefs.
I'm not sure why that's so hard to comprehend.
If what you say is true, that promoting anyone's writing (or presumably other creations like games, movies, or art) is the same as promoting their beliefs, then we're all racist for deferring to the Constitution and Bill of Rights as they were penned, largely, by racist slave owners.
Can you explain why you think promoting someone's work equals legitimizing their personal prejudices?
Dump Starbucks, a boycott organized by the National Organization for Marriage.
You'll note, in the lower right corner of the page is NOM's name, symbol and a link.
If you scroll to the bottom of the NOM home page you will find a link back to the Dump Starbucks page.
Representatives from the NOM showing up to a Starbucks shareholder meeting.
So I think this illustrates one reason why I tend to think boycotts are dumb: they associate an otherwise benign behavior with a political viewpoint. Or attempt to.
I don't like Starbucks for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that I don't drink coffee anyway, does that mean that I've unwittingly thrown in with NOM (a hilarious acronym btw) by not supporting them financially?
The answer is of course not, but how can you tell some gay-hating d-bag filling up on Chic-Fil A because of his hate, and some guy who just wants a greasy chicken sandwich on the wrong day?
The truth is Lovecraft's writings represent a different time. In 50 years time we'll be seen as backwards idiots, I hope, for our lack of inclusion with gay and trans folks. That doesn't mean I'd want to see David Eddings or Terry Pratchet's works burned. Neither of those include many notable gay or trans characters (baring Monstrous Regiment) but that doesn't make them awful books. Just products of our times.
Wait wait. Do either writers have portions of their books that speak against trans/homosexuals or is just a lack?
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The world isn't going to end.
At the same time, what is wrong with promoting awareness about what people are doing with the money we give them?
Again, I'm less concerned with what people say or espouse, and more about their actions.
It seems like Paizo should just scrap Golarion and develop a completely new setting that owes nothing to any fantasy literature traditions, so no one feels offended?
The world isn't going to end.
At the same time, what is wrong with promoting awareness about what people are doing with the money we give them?
Nothing intrinsically. It's a question of effectiveness.
The question is whether it will work the way the Chic Fil A "boycott" worked. In other words, their success in getting the word out about the boycott just made people who were anti-gay (or at least indifferent) patronize the establishment more, which resulted in a boom in business and free advertising.
FWIW I'm on your side, and if I were on the fence I probably wouldn't go to the movie because of my distaste for OSC as a person (and not just his anti-gay rhetoric, he's a dbag in many other respects!) but we should recognize this is at least an interesting case.
The facts, which I have no reason to doubt as of yet, seem to indicate that OSC won't get a percentage of the profits, which on its face would mean that you're not depriving him of money by boycotting the show.
But on the other hand, if it flops they won't option the sequels, which WOULD deny him additional money to fund his dumb agenda.
But on the OTHER hand, at this point vindication for gay marriage proponents seems to be where the chips will fall, and any action by OSC-funded hate groups may well just be pissing in the wind.
On the OTHER hand, if the movie does well it may in fact lead to a trend of better sci-fi movies that aren't action or horror. But that's only if you think Ender's Game is such a movie, and not just shlock, and that also depends on how well the themes of the book are represented in the movie...which we won't know until after the box office returns are in.
If I have to weight supporting good sci-fi against gay marriage (which I think will be the law of the land regardless of what OSC says, thinks, or spends) then I might weigh in on changing the thing that is more important to me: science fiction.
That's a lot of hands.
I would largely agree, most boycott campaigns are ineffective, particularly on evenly divided issues and nationwide campaigns.
Boycotts are more effective on small and precisely targeted scales, for example the Montgomery bus boycotts. They only work when massive numbers of people engage in them. It also requires significant organization and support to provide for the needs not being met during the boycott. For example, licensing a bunch of food trucks to serve chicken sandwiches, where the proceeds go to fund gay rights activism and then start parking them outside of Chick-fil-A.
Modern boycotts are attempts at lazy activism.
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Modern boycotts are attempts at lazy activism.
Frankly I'm kinda glad. If boycotts actually worked to effectively eliminate what was being boycotted, I fear that the radical conservatives are far better organized, funded, and active than the rest of us. We would not win these fights.
If I boycotted everything done by someone whose views I disagreed with, I'd be living in the woods making my own clothes. I wouldn't play using the Pathfinder setting due to its Cthuhlu influences, because Lovecraft was a racist misogynistic bastard. Yet I do use the setting because I don't associate the man with his work in that way.
That's called tolerance.
There's a significant difference between someone who holds repulsive personal views, and someone who currently sits on the board of a hate group and donates large sums of money to it.
And tolerance doesn't require you to give money to people who are actively trying to hurt other people. It doesn't even require you to listen to them. It simply requires you to oppose attempts by the government or literal lynch mobs to attempt to silence them.
Living in a free society doesn't -- and shouldn't -- prevent you from being subject to social and financial consequences for the opinions you express.
I agree with just about everything people are saying against Blayde MacRonan except this one point. Really we're only getting this worked up over Card because he's really public about his dislike of the LGBT community same thing with chick-fil-a. Both of their donations to anti-gay hate groups are dwarfed by organizations like Target, but no one boycotts Target because they just sort of quietly hate gay people and let louder bigots do their shouting.
Also I honestly think that buying from Apple Inc is far worse than buying from a known homophobe like Card. It is horrible to be denied you rights to insurance, visitation, adoption, and marriage; however it is nothing compared to the slavery that is inflicted in sweatshops around the world. This very slavery that supports companies like Apple, Walmart, or Sears. Why are we organizing protests and boycotts about something so small by comparison when the larger problem does not seem to be attacked at all?
And all the proceeds from one of the premiers is going to an LGBT advocacy group. Done by the studio/producers specifically to say they don't agree with Cards views and that Ender's Game itself does not contain any of it.
Both of their donations to anti-gay hate groups are dwarfed by organizations like Target, but no one boycotts Target because they just sort of quietly hate gay people and let louder bigots do their shouting.
There isn't a lot of evidence to support the notion that Target "quietly hates gay people". They certainly aren't outspoken supporters of gay rights, and they do have a moderately checkered past of donating to Republican candidates whose platforms included being anti-gay, but there's no evidence that this is indicative of a corporate culture of anti-gay ideology.
Honestly, Target's just a corporation. I expect that they really don't care either way, except where it concerns their ability to sell.
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Except that Target is an HRC 100 company. Which means they are one of the best corporations in the world for LGBT employees and family members. For instance, their insurance, unlike most insurance plans in the country, will help a transgender person pay for surgery. Quite the opposite of 'quietly hating gay people'.
My favorite part of this thread is the idea of a Richard Dawkins-penned Spider-Man title.Which Spider-Man? Miles Morales or Otto Octavius?
NO Italian Spiderman is the only good Spidermam.
Indian Thriller Just to blow your mind.
To quote Guitar Wolf from the Movie Wild Zero...
"ACE ! Love has no borders, nationalities, or genders! DO IT!!!!"
Except that Target is an HRC 100 company. Which means they are one of the best corporations in the world for LGBT employees and family members. For instance, their insurance, unlike most insurance plans in the country, will help a transgender person pay for surgery. Quite the opposite of 'quietly hating gay people'.
Awesome. I've always liked Target, but it's nice to know that they do more than they have to.
It seems like Paizo should just scrap Golarion and develop a completely new setting that owes nothing to any fantasy literature traditions, so no one feels offended?That makes a TON of sense, dump a well selling fantasy setting that's being lapped up by thousands because one or two idiots on a messageboard have their knickers in a bunch?
The impossibility of creating a fantasy setting that doesn't take inspiration from works that came before aside, I think QXL99 was being tongue-in-cheek.
godwin's law strikes again
Can I mention Coco Channel and Hugo Boss now...