Help with a character?


Advice


It looks like I'll be playing in a Pathfinder game next week but unfortunately I've never played the system and have none of the books. I'm familiar with 3e and 3.5e but from what I understand, the system has changed enough that I'd be at a disadvantage with such a character and it wouldn't be entirely compatible anyway.

I was hoping that I could get some help with a character, possibly even a character made for me? If the game continues I'd obviously invest in the books but at this stage it's not even certain if we'll have a stable group, let alone what system we'll be using in the long run.

For those who are kind enough to grant me this wish, the character I'd like to play would be a rogue of some type focused on spying and infiltration. He's charismatic but his primary statistic would be extreme Dexterity (at the sacrifice of anything else). When I played him in 3e, he had something along the lines of 12 Str, 20 Dex, 10 Con, 8 Wis, 12 Int and 14 Cha. At the lower levels, his combat focus is solely on avoiding being hit. He prefers throwing daggers (22 of them) but in a pinch can handle himself with dual-wielding in melee.

He's not a coward but at the same time, he prefers to run rather than fight and to fight at an advantage, using any trickery he can to get the upper hand. He travels under a pseudonym and wears very non-descript and well-worn travellers clothes with no obvious weaponry. He doesn't like to stand out in a crowd and prefers to observe, gather information, charm and report back to his superiors. In previous iterations, he was a high elven spy of the royal elven court.

I'm not sure what level we'll be playing but I presume it will be 1st. If I could get a character at around 6th, though, that would be much appreciated :)


Books? Who needs books? ;)

That site has all officially released content on it. If you're familiar with 3.5 you're familiar with Pathfinder to an extent, any major rules changes will probably be caught quickly by your GM when you try to do something you can't do.

I don't think you'll get much help in building a character at the moment, however, because you haven't posted character creation parameters (stat generation, traits, etc.).

Lantern Lodge

I dont have any PFS experience but i do have a lot of Pathfinder experience. A feat this character would need if its gonna be respectable at all as a two-weapon fighter is Two-Weapon Feint. Check it out and if allowed use it. Best of luck to you.


I will give you some free advice.

The TWF-ing Rogue is a trap.


Rynjin wrote:
Books? Who needs books? ;)

Ooh. I hadn't even considered that PF might have an SRD, thanks.

Rynjin wrote:

I will give you some free advice.

The TWF-ing Rogue is a trap.

A trap as in it's not very good? If that's the case then I don't mind. I'm more about roleplaying than stats. I do like the character to be represented properly in the stats but I can work around that.


As long as you're aware. IMO the TWF-ing Rogue is about the worst melee character in the game, but you can make up for it with out of combat skills and face abilities if that's how you wanna roll.

And the SRD is pretty neat, just be careful you don't stumble onto 3rd party stuff (though it's clearly labeled) unless your DM allows it.


Read the guides, they are rather good. They are in a sticky in this forum.
I'd also go with a Ninja instead of a Rogue. If you don't like the name for all its 80s B-movie associations, refluff it.

Silver Crusade

Thank God, do me a favor look at the pregens, namely, at the Merisel pregen level one and seven.

She's Described-

"Never the sharpest knife in the drawer, Merisiel makes up for this by
carrying at least a dozen of them on her person at any given time."

MERISIEL
Female elf rogue 1
CN Medium humanoid (elf )
Init +6; Senses low-light vision; Perception +7
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +1; +2 vs. enchantments
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier +4 (1d6+2/18–20)
Ranged dagger +4 (1d4+2/19–20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 16
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +5, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist +7,
Knowledge (local) +4, Perception +7, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +7;
Armor Check –1
Traits Forlorn, Reactionary
Languages Common, Elven
SQ trapfinding +1, elven magic, weapon familiarity
Combat Gear acid flask, alchemist’s fire; Other Gear studded leather,
daggers (6), rapier, backpack, hooded lantern, oil (5), silk rope (50 ft.),
thieves’ tools, 13 gp

***********************************************************************
You should read the Free Guide to Pathfinder Society and the Additional Resources for legality if your DM will stick to that rules as written system.

Example: 20 point build/ 150 gold to start.

Str 10 (00)
Int 10 (00)
Wis 10 (00)
Dex 18 (17)
Con 10 (00)
Chr 13 (03)

From your post you described 3 characters and you can multiclass.

I built a Zen Archer for you, at level one you are a one trick pony "ranged killer" who can even deflect one ranged attack against you. My bestfriend Derek is the best at building characters period, so he leads with that question, what do you want to do?

If you look at Merisel at 7th level her Sleight of Hand is so awesome she can steal anything.

I made a Magus casting True Strike the using the Disarm/Steal Combat Manuever to take the enemy's weapon- I called him "Rouge" and roleplayed him like a hustler who had anything you might need in his jacket shelf.

The third character trait you mentioned is a Sorcerer or Bard by far.I had a Hollywood character that was all charm and all about his hair during combat. All about the ladies out of combat. I took the Celebrity Famous build to make signing autographs in combat pretty normal.

Pathfinder is like a box a chocolates, each game needs, this or that, but if your party is all facemen, or Paladins with reach weapons, the game will go different ways at a drop of a hat.

In PFS play the pregen, not the Ninja, 7th level and she can survive most 10th level games as long as she has 3 potions of invisibility.

As a Human, your idea can be a point blanking rapid shotting rogue that throws anything twice. Take Improved Initiative and Reactionary as a trait and try to always act first for your sneak attack.

I wish this class idea had wings, but if you aim for tricks like leathal ranged (Composite Bow fighter owns), or Diplomatic (Bard-Cha-Based classes), or just use your starting gold to get 3 healing potions, and your Plain-Clothed Pirate will be great to see in action.

I am in a home game where non optimised characters get pregnant and dead (invisibility potions), but I can ask Derek to suggest what's now and new, based on your perrogative.

If you were in Wisconsin we use pdfs and a treasure chest of books so new folks can use the books.

In another thread this new guy is asking for Broken builds at every level (1st-12th). He will be the exact opposite of you, and it's like giving a six year old an oozie. It's obvious why he wants to be like Derek, but no one can be that talented, I'm 100% serious. If I win tournament champion, it's becuase I can out roleplay anyone no matter what my stats are.

Good Luck !!!

Silver Crusade

*Apologies "Described"

The stats were before racial mods, if human your Dex could be 20 legally.

Options go on like--Darkvision builds

Aasimar Racial Traits
+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Native Outsider: Aasimars are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Aasimars are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to
the aasimar’s class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence
scores can choose from the following languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling,
and Sylvan.


To expand (I'm rather hung over, so bear with me).
The ninja is a rogue with some kind of mystic power, and they specialize in stealth, and they are quite good at it.
This magical power is based of of charisma, which fits well into your stat preferences.
If you want someone that can infiltrate something without sneaking, then go with the Kitsune race. They are quite capable of posing as another person, and with + to Dex and Cha, perfect for you. They do get a - to Str, but that matters little, because with that high a dex, you should get the Dervish Dance and fight with a scimitar. The Kitsune racial feats are also quite good for your build type. Besides, the Kitsune race, as the mythical creature IRL, fits quite well with the concept.
You will be somewhat starved for feats, but I always see that as a good thing, because it means you have a focus with your character.

It's all in the SRD, but of course you need to know what to look for ;) .

Silver Crusade

Brock Lesner is right, but Ninjas are so weak.

My brother is a ninja in real life, but still just know that after two levels, namely, Vanish, Ninja will get impregnated by pirates or robots, or a dire chipmunk swarm.

People play a Ninja so they can say "I play a Ninja."

In our area we have weak Ninjas so I'm just venting.


Well, the Ninja is kinda weak but it's miles better than the Rogue. And it gets some neat stuff that makes it worthwhile. It's basically a net loss of Trapfinding and all those Rogue Talents that literally make you worse at doing things, and a gain of a bunch of stuff.

Silver Crusade

Here is a good way to get a feel "Kharacter Build Kombat!!!!!"

We are old school so when the Ruby Phoenix module first came out we wanted to play it so we built 11th level Monks.

My Flowing Monk could not be hit, and she had 42 hit points, and like a 42 AC with Mage Armor or whatever.

The greatest thief ever, uses acrobatics to flank, the keen rapiers to victory.

But until you get some dice behind you level 7? (4d6)you are d-sixen' for bragging rights.

Oh yeah "Golf bag your gear". Get a putter, alchemist fire for swarms, acid flash for failed lock attempts, siver, cold iron.

At level one you will do well with a free tree club, but swarms have owned my party.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin is right this is the weakest class in the game. Rynjinn knows the Zen Archer drops Merisel round one. Perfect strike is like, I get minus 2 but point blank +1 and +5 Dex and let me roll 4 times to see if I crit at +4.

1d8 per arrow

Cell has 10 hps, she's dead.

Oh Golfbagging I forgot the long spear for reach and holy water 25 gps, if you have the money go 2 potions of healing.

Rynjin, please don't tell me your character has all 12s and one mighty 14 for their stats.


New guy be careful of CMD builds with your "cloth armor idea"...

Wolves will trip you, monks will trip you, you might not want to stand for three Aos.


Thank Dog (God?)

Call your guy "Niff"

Like a mispelled Knife....Awesome!!!


Frag it, I may be hung-over, but I'm also bored.
My build would be something akind to:

Kitsune Ninja. Yes, the ninja is a weak class, but far, far better than the rogue. Far better. Did I mention it was better than the rogue?

Kitsune is IMHO the perfect race for your idea. They aren't all that über powerful, but what they do well is infiltrate.
Their ability score adjustments are perfect for a ninja. And their racial feat works perfectly with your infiltration idea. These two powers/feats is what I am talking about:

"Change Shape (Su) A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores."

And

"Realistic Likeness (Kitsune)
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.

Prerequisites: Kitsune.

Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation."

Stats generated via the standard Pathfinder Society method of 20-point-buy, but you might end up rolling for them, but the priority should be clear. (base -> after racial mods)
Str 12 -> 10
Dex 16 -> 18
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14 -> 16
Now, I did say that strength was unimportant, but you can't go all that low, as you still need to carry some equipment, you might even want it higher, and probably get some carrying capacity via magic and/or henchmen later on. I would probably dump strength if I started at a higher level, where magic items are readily available. You could also go with a lower int for more con (but I like skill points a lot), or lower cha, though I would not have a lower cha than 14. 18 base dex I think is too expensive for what it's worth.

Ninja. You have IMHO a couple of choices here, because you just don't have the feats for everything. I think you should get Realistic Likeness, as that does fit your idea, and you should also get weapon finesse as otherwise you won't hit anything, but beyond that, you can choose to go with more Kitsune guile and magic, or focus on becoming more useful in combat.
The Kitsune Magical Tail feat line, which can eat up to 8! friggin' feats, will give you a lot of fun stuff, like misdirection, invisibility and dominate person. A definitively fun choice, and can provide for more roleplaying fun and trickery, but you will never shine in combat. Check it out on the SRD.
The combat line, here I would probably multiclass with a level in either barbarian (for the faster movement) or fighter (for the extra feat). This grants you access to all weapons, including the scimitar, which means you use your dex mod for damage as well as to-hit. It also means that you wont dual wield though. Or you could go with the classical dual-wielding flanking sneak attacker, here you would want the Agile weapon enchantment ASAP, as that means that you can add Dex to damage instead of str. In any case, you need that Weapon Finesse. I'd probably go with a level in fighter, as you are really starved for feats.

Levels:
1: Fighter. Yes. You wont start with all that many skills, but your start HPs are better, you will also be able to have both Realistic Likeness and Weapon Finesse at level 1. Do talk to your GM about this first though, because not all GMs are all that keen about multiclassing into your favoured class, and especially if it is the ninja class. The most effective ranged attack here would be a longbow, throwing is strength based, and use some kind of light weapon, short sword for example, you'll be switching to a katana next level.
2: Ninja. You are just a rogue with poison use instead of trap finding. Not the best of trades. However, the fun starts at
3: Ninja. Feat, either Two Weapon Fighting, or Dervish Dance, with Dervish dance being better against high AC opponents, but perhaps a little less "ninja"-ish. Ki pool!
"The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start."
Which is why Cha is that important, with my build, which focuses on cha somewhat, you'd still only have 4 Ki pool points at this level.
"By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks."
Better at stealth than anyone else, also can get more attacks than the rogue, so better at killing stuff. Let's say you are dual-wielding a Katana and a Wakizashi, both rather excellent weapons, both weapons you can use due to your ninja class, dex 18 and a BAB of +2. Spend one Ki point while flanking an enemy, and you have three attacks all at +4 to hit (more with magic), if they have the agile enchantment, they will do 2X 1d8+4 +1d6(sneak attack) (18-20/x2) and 1d6+4 +1d6 (18-20/x2), and as you can see, you will also crit often, so later on you could go with the keen enchantment on both for a crit range of 15-20. If all attacks hit, you will do an average of 31 damage, not too shabby at all, infact it would probably kill yourself outright.
And the Ninja trick you want for this level? I'd say
"Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point."
With a mentioning of
"Fast Stealth (Ex): A ninja with this trick can move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty."
Remember that that invisibility is an SU ability, so it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and can be used in combat due to the swift action needed. And when you get your level 10 master ninja trick, it counts as Greater Invisibility, which is downright awesomesauce for a ninja.
After this I'd go with ninja levels, take the Kitsune Magical Tail feat line, which would provide you some interesting opportunities for fun and mayhem. The third spell in the feat is normally not that useful, but for you it really is. With that high stealth and ability to look like whomever, your enemies are going to use divination to defeat it, and here Misdirection is key.

Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex). Needed.
Bluff (Cha). Definitely needed, max it.
Climb (Str). Kinda needed for the thematic effect, if not for the skill itself.
Diplomacy (Cha). Very useful. Do want.
Disable Device (Dex). You are probably expected to take this, and it is useful. Max it.
Disguise (Cha). Hell yes. The build is kinda centered around this.
Knowledge (local) (Int). Nice to have, though you don't need to max it, one point to get the trained class skill mod.
Knowledge (nobility) (Int). Same as above.
Linguistics (Int). Might not be needed, depends heavily on the campaign, talk to your GM about it.
Perception (Wis). Max it. Very important for all characters.
Perform (dance) (Cha). If you are going with Dervish Dance, you need a couple of ranks here.
Sense Motive (Wis). Needed for the build
Sleight of Hand (Dex). Useful, but you are rather short on skill points.
Stealth (Dex). Max it. Nuff said.
Swim (Str). Get one point in it, you never know.
Use Magic Device (Cha). A very useful skill. But it is a either or skill, so max it or leave it alone.
You wont be able to max all the skills you want I think, and the fighter level does hurt a little, however it does give you ride (no hero without a horse) and handle animal (for those pesky guard dogs) as class skills, both definitely worth a rank for the +3 class skill bonus.
With me build, you have 10 skill points for each ninja level, I'd choose 8 essential skills to max, and use the rest for those support skills.

Magical items.
Headband of charisma. More Ki points is good.
If you are going for double wield, go with agile weapons. If you are going with Dervish Dance, just get a + to-hit.
A mithril breatplate with Expeditious (cheap faster movement), Glamered (cheap, useful for infiltrations), Mirrored (sneak attack against creature with concealment) and Shadow (more stealth!) on it.
Belt of dex/con.
Some sort of carrying capacity, like Mule Cords and the ever useful and Handy Haversack.
If you have chosen UMD as a skill, then various wands.

This build ensures that you aren't useless in combat early on, while still giving you all the opportunities for infiltration and skulduggery. The first Kitsune Magical Tail feat gives you another +10 to disguise, with a total of +20 (they do stack) mod to your skill. That is pretty much a guaranteed success against most non-trueseeing foes, and that is without counting your skill itself, which should be rather high. It can also be done on the fly, with the Realistic Likeness costing a move action, and the Disguise Self SLA costing a standard action. You are effectively a doppelgänger, without being a Doppelgänger.

Feel free to ask questions, it might be a bit to digest, as I do have a tendency to ramble on a bit.

The Exchange

In a way it's hard to intelligently advise you; the composition of the rest of the party makes quite a difference when optimizing a rogue. (In passing, any warrior-type with Improved Trip is your friend!)

You may want to keep your character concept, personality and planned strategy, but apply them to a class new to Pathfinder, the Inquisitor; it combines many of a rogue's skill options with a handful of spells and some other handy class abilities. However, I'm not one of the folks on the boards who feels rogues are too weak to be effective: if your heart's set on one, you'll probably do fine.


Thank Dog wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Books? Who needs books? ;)

Ooh. I hadn't even considered that PF might have an SRD, thanks.

Not only is there one (the one linked) but there is also one hosted by paizo on their own site in the prd. If your group is limited to the pathfinder rpg hardback line only use this instead of d20pfsrd which has stuff from other sources to avoid confusion.

Grand Lodge

Freebooter/Trapper Ranger, the better Rogue.


Try a fighter there really easy to use unlike wizards which take some time
time to make.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

in pathfinder there are things called "traits" which can (among many other things) make just about any skill into a class skill... your simple description doesn't really give enough info to advise you on a build (as has been mentioned we know nothing about point buy or allowed rules/variants) especially since any class can be good at stealth/infiltration by focusing on the appropriate stats and using one or two traits (out of the two you start with) to pick up the necessary skills. plus there's feats (like skill focus) to make you better at those things.

obviously classes that benefit most from dex and cha will be the easiest to work with, so look at ninja or bard. summoners are cha based and have a lot of options (including making a super stealthy eidolon for sneaking/spying, if you want). being able to effectively 2wpn fight and throw daggers will be fairly feat intensive, so a properly built fighter could be a good fit- the Cad variant adds a lot of the class skills you'd probably want...

edit: upon further reflection, this post probably only makes you more confused. ignore all of the advice we have all offered and go read the classes and their variants from the SRD; if you're familiar with 3.x you should have no problem figuring out how to make whatever you want (but, for whatever its worth, maybe think about trying a new guy- if you just keep remaking the same old guy you might miss out on something else that could be just as good or better)


Hrm, looking over the classes and with the advice here, it looks like I might be best served by going multiclass rogue/fighter. I take it with PF that you can't start a 1st-level character as multiclass?

Either that or make a quarterstaff fighter with improved trip since it seems trip is overpowered :)


You might be best served by going Ranger, actually. Full BaB of a Fighter, almost as many skills as a Rogue, free Combat Style Feats you don't have to meet the prerequisites for.

As well, you can TWF with a Str focus instead of a Dex one if you wish to do so, since you don't need to meet the Dex prereqs for the TWF-ing Feats. It works much better mechanically, though it may not fit your character at all.

Also, Trip is pretty good, though be warned that after around level 8-10, Trip becomes a bit unreliable, since it doesn't work on flying creatures, and many legged creatures are either immune of gain a huge CMD bonus, I can't remember which.

So if you want to do Trip, I'd suggest either speccing into Grapple or upping your direct combat prowess as a secondary tactic for when Trip isn't feasible.

Grand Lodge

Trapper Ranger.

Full BAB, disable traps, 6 skill points, two good saves, d10 HD.

The package.


What's a racial archtype? It lists them and describes them in the PRD but doesn't explain them.


Racial archetypes are class archetypes that can only be taken by a certain race.

Like the Scarred Witch Doctor is a Witch archetype available only to Orc Witches (and Humans who take Racial Heritage: Orc as a Feat).

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