Is this Right ? James Jacobs? Thornkeep?


Adventures


First off... If this has been fixed some where will some just show me where? K here we go.

Evisceration (Ex)A mi-go's claws are capable of swiftly and painfully performing surgical operations upon helpless creatures or creatures it has grappled. When a mi-go makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check), it inflicts its sneak attack damage on the victim. A creature that takes this damage must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of ability damage as well from the invasive surgery (the type of ability damage dealt is chosen by the mi-go at the time the evisceration occurs). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Melee 4 claws +14 (1d4+4 plus grab)
sneak attack +2d6
Copyed from Path Finder Thorn Keep

So it 4 claws +14 (1d4+4 plus grab)+2d6 Sneak attack + Fort DC 18 for 1d4 abilty damage DC 18... Should be DC 20 do to highter DEX.. So when it all said and done it 4d4+8d6+16 damage Plus 4d4 ability damage per round? For a CR 8? That 84 damage on average wich is equal CR 16 or 17.
Plus a average 10 ability point damage per turn to any Stat? Is this little strong?

Also Selective Channeling for a monster that cast summon Monster III and IV off a scroll with no other allies that would be all fiendish and there for not need to be seltively cut out of the group?

Also this Mi-go cast spell as 3rd level cleric.... but can not speak???? So as it is the spells are useless...Should it be Oracle with deaf curse? Dose it need still spell instead?


I believe the key words you might not be reading are grappled or helpless.


the best part of all of your CR 8 creature who is really powerful, he is found in the level designed for level 4 party.... we had 2 deaths and 2 KOs while running away. That was with a table of 7 and 4 of the were above tier at level 5... That thing is dumb.


Coltaine wrote:
I believe the key words you might not be reading are grappled or helpless.

It has grab on it claws so it with claw then it starts a grappel with you for free. If that dose then it get 2d6 sneak attack dice plus dose 1d4 points of ability point damage to any stat.


A)Can you cast a spell form scrolls if you can not speak?

B)Can you cast a spell form a wand if you can not speak?

Copyed Thornkeep mi-go stat block page 53
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Mi-Go; cannot speak


Also the art right for this monster mi-go? It show it with 6 legs and 2 arm like claws where is the other 2 claw coming from in stat block.

If rears up to attack with it front 2 legs should it not be thought like hoof or pincers like attack? And there for be Secondary attack so it -5 to hit with those last 2 attacks?

Sovereign Court

Spellcasting-wise, the full Mi-go article includes:

Wake of the Watcher Bestiary wrote:


Ecology
Although a mi-go’s shape might suggest an arthropod,
especially with its long, insectlike limbs and diaphanous
wings, the creature is in fact a highly evolved form
of extraterrestrial fungus. Mi-go communicate via a
combination of clicking of pincers and subtle shifts in
the coloration of their bulbous heads—other creatures
can learn this language, but without similar biologies (or
the ability to mimic these noises and colors with illusions)
can only hope to “listen” to a mi-go. A mi-go can speak in
a strange, buzzing voice, but generally only does so when
forced to speak to other creatures.

That does look like quite a threat for level 5 adventurers.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Mi go can speak. That's an error that crept into their stats when we first detailed them in Pathfinder #46, one that I fixed for them in Thornkeep but it looks like someone added that back in during development or editing. In any event, Mi-Go CAN speak—they do so in buzzing voices (see Lovecraft's "Whisperer in the Darkness"), but their own language is not one that uses spoken words—that's where the confusion comes in.

And yes, they can do a lot of damage if they flank you, but they do pretty poor damage if they're not flanking you.

The Evisceration ability only works against a grappled or helpless foe, and they can only use this ability when it makes a successful grapple check. It can't eviscerate foes merely when it's making a sneak attack.

Sovereign Court

Thanks, James.

Tom S 820 wrote:
Coltaine wrote:
I believe the key words you might not be reading are grappled or helpless.

It has grab on it claws so it with claw then it starts a grapple with you for free. If that dose then it get 2d6 sneak attack dice plus dose 1d4 points of ability point damage to any stat.

Worth noting:

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Grab (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.


Using a sample set taken NPC Codex. Form all core class for 4th level PC class your average 4th PC has: AC 18, CMD 16, Fort Save +4, HP 28, and a CON of 12.

Also given
Min-go Cleric 3 CR 8
Melee 4 claws +14 (1d4+4 plus grab)
CMB +11 (+15 grapple)
sneak attack +2d6
DEX 24
7 Racial Hit Hice
Evisceration DC 18* should be DC 20

4 claws +14 (1d4+4 plus grab) 6.5 Average damage x 85% chance to hit 4th level PC x 4 attack = 22 HP damage per round vs average 4th level PC AC
Because of grab on all 4 claw you get free CMB attack that if lands sneak attack +2d6 sneak attack CMB +11 (+15 grapple) sneak attack +2d6 (due to Evisceration)
Average sneak attack 7 HP damage x 85% chance to hit AC x 95% chance to beat PC CMD x 4 attacks per round = 22 HP per round extra due sneak attack
Total HP damage for one round is claw average 22 + 22 per round extra due sneak attack is 44 HP loss per total for 4 claw with 2d6 sneak attack in 1 round . Witch is greater average 4th level PC 28 HP + CON 12 by 4.

Copy from Thorn keep page 53
Evisceration (Ex) A mi-go’s claws are capable of swiftly and painfully performing surgical operations upon helpless creatures or creatures it has grappled. When a mi-go succeeds at a grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check), it deals its sneak attack damage to the victim. A creature that takes this damage must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or take an additional 1d4 points of ability damage from the invasive surgery (the type of ability damage dealt is chosen by the mi-go at the time the evisceration occurs). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Listed Save DC 18 DEX 24
Save should be 10+ ½ Racial HD (7)+DEX MOD(7)=20 so save should be DC 20.

85% hit chance x 95% chance to grapple x 75 % Fort Save chance of failure x 2.5 average ability point loss x 4 attacks per round = 6 ability point loss per round with full attack on a PC. If this stat CON a loss 6 points mean 3 HP per level or 12 HP for
level 4th PC.

The average 4th level PC has 28HP + CON of 12 so total so death for sure is 40

Average damage from claws full attack per round 22
HP + 22HP per round extra due sneak attacking grapple +12 HP due to CON loss = 56 witch is greater average 4th level PC by 16.

The Room size 15ft x 15ft so it will always get full attack unless you flee.

After running these numbers the MI-GO Cleric 3 CR 8 will kill average 4th level PC per round every round and will kill a party of 4 4th level PCs in 4 rounds.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Errr... that's all correct, because a CR 8 challenge is beyond scale for a level 4 party. At level 4, CR 4 is routine, CR 5 is manageable with bumps, CR 6 is step up there might be blood and CR 7 is get your A game. CR+4 encounters are firmly TPK territory.


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I think his point is: Why is it in a dungeon advertised as for 3rd- or 4th-level PCs?

Frankly, the fact that the first-level dungeon contained a wight -- "Oh, did that attack hit you? Well, no point rolling damage. Sorry, no save. You were a four-man party fighting one wight, now you're a three-man party fighting two." -- convinced me the whole thing was poorly tiered.

Dark Archive

we just ran this, it was a disaster with no hope of winning. Its gonna hit all 4 times and youll fail 3 of 4 saves, gm chooses con dmg.

4 hits - 4d4 + 16
4 grapples = 8d6 more
3 of 4 con fails = 7.5 con lost which is another 12-16 hp assuming lvl 4 PC.

reasonable average dmg per round is 26 + 29 + 12 = 63 hp a round

lots of fun for a lvl 3 or 4 tank with 28 hp.

not to mention invisible flying healer.


We actually overcame this guy because:

Spoiler:
the 5th Level Sorceror was paranoid from getting jumped by someone invisible in an earlier scenario so he had (and used) 2 scrolls of see invisible so we immediately negated the Migo's surprise ability. Unbeknownst to us the premade Iconic Kyra was potent enough bait to lure the Migo and his summoned creatures out into the main room where we could maneuver, my sorceror threw down a glitterdust and got the main fighter as well(d'oh). The Visitant was a tough hombre but seldom did it get its full attack, it tried to go invisible but with the see invisible & and glitterdust, we were able to slay it. The heavy hitters in the group did a splendid job busting/melting faces--or arms in this case. it was a great team effort

I'd love to know how many parties of mainly 3-4s actually win this fight however, because if you've got nothing to counter what the Migo does, even with a group of 5s if you get a couple rounds of say low D20 rolls, that would be enough time for V to take down one, maybe two party members and that doesn't bode well.

Our formula was preparation, knowledge, "don't go into the room, that's a Migo, lure it out here!" and 4-5 tier characters.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think (hope) James' point is that it can't use the Eviscerate when it grapples a creature, only against one that is grappled and it successfully maintains a grapple, which would only be once per round as a standard action (though at around +19 to maintain, that's auto damage for 1d4+2d6+4 as well).


Majuba wrote:
I think (hope) James' point is that it can't use the Eviscerate when it grapples a creature, only against one that is grappled and it successfully maintains a grapple, which would only be once per round as a standard action (though at around +19 to maintain, that's auto damage for 1d4+2d6+4 as well).

Yeah, either way it's ridiculous damage. Actually, the next one, "Dark Menagerie" we had a pretty tough fight

Spoiler:
With a Deathtrap Ooze. Ambushed us & killed the Summoner and a Low-HP Archer who provoked an AOP in the same fricking round. Attack + Acid Damage + Grapple/constrict + more acid damage for 40+ damage at 5-7 is high grade plutonium nasty.


This was conspicuously deadly when I played it as well. I can only go by the way my GM ran it, but it seemed like, in addition to being a CR 8 encounter, there is a high probability of the previous encounter bleeding over into this one as well. That is a bit insane, though I recognize the design difficulty posed by the tier setup, when it comes to high CR encounters. That is to say, this encounter is going to be memorable, but probably not a big deal to a group of well built 5th level PCs. On the other hand, it's an almost guaranteed TPK to most 3rd level groups.

Evisceration is nasty, but really no big deal when used correctly (as JJ pointed out). It seems to have just confused a lot of people, but I'd have to say that's their own fault; the writing on the statblock is solid.

In principle, though, I don't necessarily oppose the occasional APL+4 encounter. In fact, I support it. Keeps people on their toes ;) I think the problem with this one may just have been people incorrectly using evisceration on the mi-go's full attacks. Also, there should probably be some kind of sidebar about modifying this kind of encounter for the inevitable occasions when an unfairly low levelled group stumbles upon it.


When you look @ the statblock for the Migo, one could interpret the rules to read 4 limbs as one attack instead of 4. The reason being, this thing has essentially 12 attack attempts at 3-5 (4 att, 4 grapple attempts, 4 fort saves to avoid stat dmg). It seems like a bit too much. If I was running a group of 3's, I would run the 4 limb attacks as one attack, and the encounter might still be a TPK.

Scarab Sages

After reading the Mi-Go's motivation, it seems most likely that it is interested in capturing more slave followers, not merely killing intruders.

Because of this, when I ran this I had the Mi-Go use at least 1 nonlethal attack on each target to make sure accidental killing didn't happen, and used evisceration to drop the target's Wisdom. Once the target went unconscious the Mi-Go moved on to the next target. After the fight (all PCs KOed) it used Charm Person on everyone and healed them all back up.

The net result was still a loss for the PCs, but they were able to use the 5 prestige body recovery in PFS instead of body recovery + raise dead + restorations.

Part of the problem for this particular fight is probably because this was written as a 4th level module, and I believe it's assumed that the party has actually reached 5th level by the time they fight the Mi-Go. That's not the case for PFS play, since you don't level up until afterwards.


To any one that see the numbers it a poor monster for it CR. I would say it a failure of mythic proportion of monster design. It only compounds by the fact that the mod sold to me by the sales tag line the " written by The Allstars of gaming designers" . Man I feel that I was lied to and mislead. I deeply regret buying this product.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, in a party of 5 3rd level characters, it was started invisible and killed one character the first round, then killed the next character the next round and a bit (the 'unbreakable' fighter), and the rest of us fled as fast as possible. Normally we wouldn't have been able to get away (since it flies and is also faster), but the GM let my iron spikes work on a door just before it got to us and we were allowed to get away.

One character felt that his character should have really been killed and so had him reported dead (it was PFS play), but were were able to retrieve one of the bodies and sell stuff to get another of the characters raised and restored. Sadly, not both.

While we were only 3rd level (I believe the scenario was supposedly appropriate for 4 3-5th level characters), I really have no idea what level we would have to be for the thing to not eviscerate one character per turn, at least the way the rules for its abilities were interpreted. Although it was mentioned that it doesn't do great damage non-flanking, it was really easy for it to use its Wand of Invisibility to go invisible again, killing a new character each time. With great saves, too, I don't think we had a chance of even knocking it down a bit.

All in all, there were a lot of players with really bad tastes in their mouths, to say the least.

Unfortunately, the scenario killed the group in addition to killing some of the characters, although I think most or all of the people are still playing - just not playing any more Thornkeep. I had actually considered still trying to run it for a group I GM but, since we are running it for PFS credit and I found that there is no "campaign mode", I couldn't "fix" the egregious sections, and I won't give my players the same bad experience we had. Fortunately, I hadn't bought it yet since I was still a player.


GeraintElberion wrote:

Thanks, James.

Tom S 820 wrote:
Coltaine wrote:
I believe the key words you might not be reading are grappled or helpless.

It has grab on it claws so it with claw then it starts a grapple with you for free. If that dose then it get 2d6 sneak attack dice plus dose 1d4 points of ability point damage to any stat.

Worth noting:

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Grab (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Sorry for posting on a 3 year old thread but I'm confused does this mean that the mi-go doesn't get its sneak attack on the first successful grab or not? Also has there been any update or errata for this level of Thornkeep?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't see how Sneak Attack gets applied at all, unless there's some other situation adding it?

No errata I'm aware of.


Evisceration (Ex) A mi-go’s claws are capable of swiftly and painfully performing surgical operations upon helpless creatures or creatures it has grappled. When a mi-go succeeds at a grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check), it deals its sneak attack damage to the victim. A creature that takes this damage must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or take an additional 1d4 points of ability damage from the invasive surgery (the type of ability damage dealt is chosen by the mi-go at the time the evisceration occurs). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

This is the ability granting it sneak attack.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah-ha! Missed that phrase.

And, yes, that means it will get the sneak attack on every single grapple check, including the first.


Yikes, and this thing is supposed to be in a pfs module for characters of level 3-5. A regular Mi-go would have been a more proper challenge let alone this monstrosity with more ranks in Use Magic Device then it could possibly have.

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