Is there a limit on how many / what kind of natural attacks a character can get or use? A friend and I were doing a thought experiment and came up with a build that gets 8 natural attacks at level 6 (6 claws and 2 bites). Neither of us can find any rules text that indicates it wouldn't work.
Here's how it works:
Ranger 2 -> natural weapon combat style -> aspect of the beast (claws of the beast) = "grow a pair of claws"
barbarian 2 -> beast totem lesser = "gains 2 claw attacks"
feat -> extra rage power -> animal fury = "gains a bite attack"
alchemist (beastmorph) 2 -> feral mutagen -> "gains two claw attacks and a bite attack"
This is with no race or ability prereqs at all. Is there any actual rule reason this wouldn't work?
(And yes, I know there are weaknesses to this build. Like I said, thought experiment.)
There's no explicit limit.
Just remember that claws go on the hands, and you can't have multiple natural attacks on thesame limb.
That's what I was thinking originally (and FWIW I agree, but I can't find any actual rules to support that)... but the text of those abilities doesn't say "on your hands" or arms or whatever. Do you have a cite for the limit of one natural attack per limb?
It's either in the combat chapter or universal monster rules (bestiary) under natural weapons/attacks.
It's something like "you don't get extra attacks from a higher BAB, but rather for each limb with a natural attack".
That's because saying that they go on your hands is redundant.
You don't say "I'm going to eat a slice of pizza with my mouth." That's already encoded when you say that you're going to eat.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Emphasis mine for clarity. One attack per limb.
That being said, there is NOTHING that says claw attacks are limited to your hands. Not even in the Universal Monster Rules. You could indeed have a catfolk with:
Adopted, Toothy Traits: 1d3 primary bite attack
Cat's Claws Racial Trait: 1d4 primary claw attack x 2 (hands)
Beast Totem Power: 1d4 primary claw attack x 2 (feet)
This can be done with 2 levels of Ranger, 2 Barbarian. 5 Natural Attacks at level 4. You could go one step further and make that Catfolk into a Kobold for the tail slap attack and have 6 Natural Attacks with very little investment other than level dipping. Take a level or two of sorceror, go Dragon Disciple afterwards, and you're talking epic Kobold madness (Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw, Bite, Tail, not to mention the breath weapon and spells).
When I'm the DM, I would limit this to races that make sense. If I saw a Catfolk, Kobold, Kitsune, or other monstrous race, it's cool. A human or elf will have to seriously justify story wise.
At any rate, I don't think your mutagen trick will work because you've run out of limbs to put claws on after Aspect and Beast Totem. Unless you're also growing the vestigial arms and THEN doing the feral mutagen, but I'm unsure of the legality of this as I've never really invested in Alchemist research. (I'm sure some career alchemist lovers can clarify if this is legal or not by RAW. Could you get vestigal arms and put the mutagen claw attack on them?)
That's sort of the problem though, the only place the rules limit a character to one natural attack per limb is when you're making natural attacks in combination with manufactured weapons or unarmed strike. Nothing about that sentence indicates the limit applies when only making natural attacks.
As as far as gaining multiple attacks on the same limb being ridiculous, what about the helm of the mammoth lords? If you use that do you lose your racial bite attack?
Let me reiterate again, we're not talking about "common sense", we're talking about what is or is not actually written in the rules.
Edited to add: to be perfectly clear, I agree with you folks that it *should be* limited to one per limb. The problem is, nothing in the rules (that I can find) actually supports that limit.
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Talons go on the feet of bipedal creatures. Claws go on the hands. That's how the monsters are made, with some erroneous exceptions.
Just like how slam attacks are almost always using your arms. You won't find any rules in the game about that, but that's how almost every designer uses them.
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack
That's the rule limiting it to once per limb.
Sean's posts have a number of clarification on natural attacks / weapons. Search around here to find 'em
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If your DM doesn't use common sense, they need to give the position to someone else. That's what the DM is there for.
Are you really going to suggest that the OP is going to be able to sprout the third set of claws his post mentions on his elbows, and gain attacks that way?
Again, common sense MUST be factored in by the DM. Regardless of what is printed on the paper, the players are ALL subject to DM interpretation. The DM makes the yea or nay call.
If I have a gargoyle PC, I will let him gore and bite on the same limb, because his base race can do so. If I have a PC with the helm of the mammoth lords, I would let him gore and bite with an immediate -2 to attack, until I decided he got used to using both attacks.
We can play the "What's RAW matters, DM interpretation and common sense don't" all day long. Just remember, the DM can do it, too.
"Your helm of the mammoth lords gives you a gore attack, but nothing says you gained proficiency. Take a negative to your hit."
That being said, you're right in pointing out that the 1 limb per attack rule from the CRB specifies while weaving natural and manufactured weapons, not "JUST" natural weapons. I will try to find the UMR rules that specify.
Talons go on the feet of bipedal creatures. Claws go on the hands. That's how the monsters are made, with some erroneous exceptions.
Just like how slam attacks are almost always using your arms. You won't find any rules in the game about that, but that's how almost every designer uses them.
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attackThat's the rule limiting it to once per limb.
Good references, Cheapy! Those links answer any questions I would have had on talons vs claws, even if it's RAI instead of RAW, it's definitely an interpretation I can get behind. I generally consider JJ's word to be law at my table, especially when it supports common sense.
I'd still houserule that certain monstrous races would qualify, but it's nice to actually have developer references to fall back upon for those "How the hell did your Halfling get claws on his toes" questions...
Something I always bring up when this conversation comes up....
Since slams are usually on the arms, they would preclude the use of weapons.
But the tanuki has a slam attack, and uses a two-handed weapon...You can figure out that one on your own :)
Slam attacks are really a grey area for me. It really depends on how it manifests. Perhaps the tanuki does a shoulder slam while the two-hander is in a single hand, uses an action to re-grip, then attacks with the two-hander? If I thought about it long enough, I could justify it somehow...
Either way, again, I think I'd houserule certain things within the boundaries of common sense.
Catfolk? Kobold? Kitsune? Yeah, you come from a quadraped race. So, you can have claws on your feet, but you can't ever wear shoes or boots. No, you can't use anklets. There's no magic item slot for those, and your name isn't Drizzt Do'Urden. Take Multiattack and/or Rake as a feat tax if you're going to use all those sharp pointies.
Harpy? Gargoyle? Stryx? Yeah, you come from an avian biped race. So, you can have talons on your feet, and I'll count them as claw attacks, but again, no shoes or magic boots. In fact, take a movement penalty while on land like a cat or dog with overgrown claws would.
In the end, it's really all about balance to me instead of abiding by the strict RAW or RAI. If you want something that's not accounted for in the book, I am going to take something away in return.
Unfortunately, RAW does not prevent claws on the feet, even if RAI or Dev Clarification Posts do. Have to houserule it either way.
Well Gelatinous Cube proves that you don't NEED limbs to slam, most often they are limited to a limb. As far as the tanuki, I assume it's his large belly and/or his 'money bags'... Sounds like a good enough reason to avoid tanuki... :)
Belly bump!
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If you absolutely must have as many natural attacks as possible, consider the following:
Barbarian 2 for the Lesser Fiend Totem (gore)
Witch 1 with the White Haired Witch Archetype (hair attack)
Potion of Monstrous Extremities (spell from faiths of corruption) (2 hoof attacks)
That's 7 natural attacks in one round without approaching any of the grey areas in the rules regarding natural attacks, and it's all PFS legal. If you wanted to start looking at some fuzzier rulings, you could try the following:
Tengu PC with alternate racial trait Claw Attack (2 claws and a bite) or alternately a Tiefling PC with the Tiefling Claws alternate racial trait and the Mother's Teeth religion trait for worshiping Lamashtu.
Witch 1 with the Prehensile Hair hex (hair attack)
First level feat on Extra Hex for the Nails Hex
Alchemist 2 for the Vestigial Arms discovery
Third Level feat on Extra Discovery for another Vestigial Arms discovery
Monk 1 with Maneuver Master archetype (extra maneuver on full attack)
Potion of Monstrous Extremities (spell from faiths of corruption) (2 hoof attacks)
That's 8 natural attacks and a maneuver on a full attack, but is questionably legal for the reason listed in the build. If for some reason, these aren't enough natural attacks, you can get two more from a Tentacle Cloak (14000gp) and a gore from the Helm of the Mammoth Lord (8500gp).