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73 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
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Do prestige classes with +1 spellcasting give you blood line spells as you advance in level?
I don't believe so. This would apply similarly to Oracle Mystery spells. PrC's don't advance everything a class gets. Spells Known and Spells per Day advance but the bonus spells are linked to the Bloodline/Mystery.
You don't get other higher level Bloodline benefits so I don't think you get these.
repost
Spells Known is a specific class feature, with an associated table. You gain that.
Bloodline spell is an other class ability. You don't gain that.
It's exactly the same as the wizard spellbook.
CDP increas you "spells" class ability, witch for spontaneus casters includes spell known. Other class ability, even if related to spells like spellbook or bloodline spells don't increase.
Dekalinder wrote: repost
Spells Known is a specific class feature, with an associated table. You gain that.
Bloodline spell is an other class ability. You don't gain that.
It's exactly the same as the wizard spellbook.
CDP increas you "spells" class ability, witch for spontaneus casters includes spell known. Other class ability, even if related to spells like spellbook or bloodline spells don't increase.
shadowcat and i believe that as well, but it is derailing another thread do to RAW concerns.
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Marking for FAQ, although I agree with shadowcat, dekalinder, et. al.: Spells granted by PrCs like MT grant you spells through the class's normal spell progression, but not from other class features like domains, bloodlines, mysteries, etc.
Dont get me wrong, if they still got bonus spells, my mt/ek combo would be one step closer to being as good as straight sorcerer.
+5 Toaster wrote: shadowcat and i believe that as well, but it is derailing another thread do to RAW concerns. I know, in fact my post is as i said a repost from that other thread
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+5 Toaster wrote: Dekalinder wrote: repost
Spells Known is a specific class feature, with an associated table. You gain that.
Bloodline spell is an other class ability. You don't gain that.
It's exactly the same as the wizard spellbook.
CDP increas you "spells" class ability, witch for spontaneus casters includes spell known. Other class ability, even if related to spells like spellbook or bloodline spells don't increase.
shadowcat and i believe that as well, but it is derailing another thread do to RAW concerns. the issue lies in the fact that it doesn't explicitly say that it only applies to spells per day (and spells known for spontaneous) given from the spells class feature. It absolutely "could" be read as all spells per day and known they get, even from secondary class features. Do I personally believe this to be the case? No not at all. However once upon a time if you would have asked me if racial spell-like abilities count towards prc prereqs, I would have said no. It's not because the mechanic is broken, but that the developers didn't initially plan for that. Paizo surprised (and impressed) me by going along with it, because it improves a weak aspect of the game. I have recently been reminded that the devs can change their minds (I first learned this with the whole flurry errata mess), so...I guess we will see.
The answer is most likely no, as dragon disciple has a specific class ability that allows access to his bloodline spells
"Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level."
Joe M. Brought this FAQ to my attention.
Quote: Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?
No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)
ShadowcatX wrote: Do prestige classes with +1 spellcasting give you blood line spells as you advance in level? Blood line spells are spells known that the sorcerer gains when he/she levels.
This falls directly in the wording of +1 spellcasting... you get them.
-James
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
james maissen wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Do prestige classes with +1 spellcasting give you blood line spells as you advance in level? Blood line spells are spells known that the sorcerer gains when he/she levels.
This falls directly in the wording of +1 spellcasting... you get them.
-James No you don't because bloodline spells are in addition to, not part of the Sorcerer spells known by level table. Part of the price of going PRC is that most class features do not advance UNLESS specifically called for as in cases like the Winter Witch PRC and the Dragon Disciple PRC.
james maissen wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Do prestige classes with +1 spellcasting give you blood line spells as you advance in level? Blood line spells are spells known that the sorcerer gains when he/she levels.
This falls directly in the wording of +1 spellcasting... you get them.
-James The bonus spells are not referenced in the spells known section only in the bloodline description.
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it doesn't specifically reference each spell level either when it grants spells per day.
if bloodline spells are spells known, they are spells known.
if they aren't spells known, then no sorceror can cast them.
there is no restriction for gaining spells known beyond what you gain as if you advanced in level.
you should also gain the ability to 're-train' spells known every 4 levels, as that is gaining spells known (even if at the opportunity of previous spells known). that ability happens to be under the 'spells' class feature, but that is really irrelevant since that class feature is never referenced by the PrC boilerplate text.
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So... class features don't advance...
Except for spells per day, 'additional spells per day', caster level, and spells known (if you are a spontaneous caster).
You're not challenging that sorcerors get spells known from the regular table. Great. That as well depends on the bolded section.
But you still haven't provided any textual reference to show that the rules 'care about' what class feature is what.
You denounce those who disagree, stating "it only works with the 'Spells' class feature".
When people ask you where it ever mentions the 'Spells' class feature, you refuse to address the question.
Paizo's published NPCs are built exactly in line with mine and others' straight-forward reading of the rules.
Let's look at the first Sorceror Eldritch Knight from the NPC Codex, the Gnome "Esmerelda Darkshadow" with Arcane Bloodline,
and compare her actual spells known to the 'base' table for Sorcerors: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/prestige/eldritchKnight.html
She is getting 1 more spell known at each spell level except the top one for which she hasn't reached sufficient spellcaster level to receive the bloodline spell, otherwise she has all bloodline spells. Gnomes can't get bonus Spell Known from Favored Class (and her HPs exactly correspond to HD + CON + Toughness + Favored Class:Sorceror), and she has no Feats or Items granting bonus spells known either.
I would actually say that the stat-block has a mistake, because she is not getting the bonus spell known that Arcane BL Sorcerors normally get at Level 9 (and 13 and 17) thru the New Arcana BL Ability, but that is easy enough of a mistake to make, and she clearly is getting all the BL spells themselves, surpassing the 'base' spells known table of the Spells class feature.
Quandary wrote: it doesn't specifically reference each spell level either when it grants spells per day.
if bloodline spells are spells known, they are spells known.
if they aren't spells known, then no sorceror can cast them.
there is no restriction for gaining spells known beyond what you gain as if you advanced in level.
Disagree. Your advancement in your bloodline is what gives you those spells known, so if your prestige class doesn't advance your bloodline, you don't gain the new spells.
I think Esmerelda would like a word with you.
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Quandary wrote: Paizo's published NPCs are built exactly in line with mine and others' straight-forward reading of the rules.
Let's look at the first Sorceror Eldritch Knight from the NPC Codex, the Gnome "Esmerelda Darkshadow" with Arcane Bloodline,
and compare her actual spells known to the 'base' table for Sorcerors: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/prestige/eldritchKnight.html
She is getting 1 more spell known at each spell level except the top one for which she hasn't reached sufficient spellcaster level to receive the bloodline spell, otherwise she has all bloodline spells. Gnomes can't get bonus Spell Known from Favored Class (and her HPs exactly correspond to HD + CON + Toughness + Favored Class:Sorceror), and she has no Feats or Items granting bonus spells known either.
I would actually say that the stat-block has a mistake, because she is not getting the bonus spell known that Arcane BL Sorcerors normally get at Level 9 (and 13 and 17) thru the New Arcana BL Ability, but that is easy enough of a mistake to make, and she clearly is getting all the BL spells themselves, surpassing the 'base' spells known table of the Spells class feature.
You bring up a good point, and you're right at Esmerelda Darkshadow, she did gain her bloodline spells even after she advanced to eldritch knight. However I'd point out that NPCs are notoriously bad at following the rules, so let's see if she is just a mistake or if she's the rule.
Melkallan Truespell does not gain his celestial bloodline spells as he's advanced through eldritch knight. (Right below Esmerelda.)
For the rest of the npcs you'll have to scroll down to find them, I don't know how to link to the middle of a page.
The celestial theurge did not gain his bloodline spells for his celestial bloodline in mystic theurge. Here
Clarion Arrowsong did not gain her bloodline spells for advancing in arcane archer. Here.
Sorintha Kalthorin did not gain her bloodline spells for advancing in arcane archer. (Location as above.)
Arcano Thief did not gain his bloodline spells for advancing in arcane trickster. Here (He has his bloodline spells known, but he's actually chosen them with slots from spells known.)
So out of 6 NPCs only 1 did bloodline spells the way you want to do them and one specifically chose his bloodline spells with his spells known.
MyTThor wrote: Disagree. Your advancement in your bloodline is what gives you those spells known, so if your prestige class doesn't advance your bloodline, you don't gain the new spells.
The prestige class doesn't advance anything in the sorcerer base class except spells known and spell slots.
So if bloodline spells are spells known, then the PrC that says that they gain spells known (blanket exception) would indeed do so. Period.
You are adding restrictions that are not in the text.
-James
Caderyn wrote: The answer is most likely no, as dragon disciple has a specific class ability that allows access to his bloodline spells
"Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level."
This is not certain. This verbiage is not redundant if the default is to gain bonus spells known when you gain caster levels because this progresses the bloodline for DD levels where casting doesn't progress and progresses the bloodline even if the DD has no sorcerer levels.
A sorc 5 DD 10 would gain his 4th level bonus spell at level 10 without this ability because of the non-progressing level at DD 1, but with this ability he gains them at level 9, the first point where he has the spell level.
A bard based DD would get draconic bloodline bonus spells at DD 3, 5, 7, and 9 or as soon thereafter as he had enough bardic casting levels to cast that level of spell.
For both the early access to bonus spells and providing the bonus spells to characters entering the PrC from a class other than sorcerer the verbiage is needed even if spells known includes bonus spells known, therefore its presence implies nothing about whether or not spells known includes bonus spells known.
james maissen wrote: MyTThor wrote: Disagree. Your advancement in your bloodline is what gives you those spells known, so if your prestige class doesn't advance your bloodline, you don't gain the new spells.
The prestige class doesn't advance anything in the sorcerer base class except spells known and spell slots.
So if bloodline spells are spells known, then the PrC that says that they gain spells known (blanket exception) would indeed do so. Period.
You are adding restrictions that are not in the text.
-James Bloodline spells is a class feature that grants you spells known. However, because class features do not advance, it doesn't advance and you do not gain the bloodline spells as spells known.
This is shown not only RAW, but also in the FAQ but also in the 5 out of 6 sorcerer prestige class characters in the NPC codex who don't receive their bloodline spells.
The Blood of Dragons ability, though, is identifying Bloodline Spells as tied to the Bloodline class ability. In doing so, it places those spells in the realm of "Other Benefits," along with Bloodline Powers and Bloodline Feats.
Edit: Ninjaed by that sneaky ShadowcatX. :)
ShadowcatX wrote: Bloodline spells is a class feature that grants you spells known. However, because class features do not advance, it doesn't advance and you do not gain the bloodline spells as spells known.
Bloodline spells are spells known.
Spells known advance.
This is the RAW.
Where does it say, RAW, that nothing in the bloodline advances, period?
All I see is something that says that nothing except slots and spells known advance. Ergo, spells known advance.
-James
james maissen wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Bloodline spells is a class feature that grants you spells known. However, because class features do not advance, it doesn't advance and you do not gain the bloodline spells as spells known.
Bloodline spells are spells known. This is where you're wrong. "Bloodline spells" is not spells known. Bloodline spells are part of a class feature that, at certain levels, grants you spells known. There is a very important difference.
The RAW says class features don't advance. The FAQ says class features don't advance. Most of the NPCs in prestige classes show that class features don't advance. What more proof do you need?
Removed a post and a response. If you choose to ignore or block a poster please leave it out of the discussion. If you find a poster is causing you strife over PMs or have similar concerns, you can also contact the Paizo staff at webmaster@paizo.com.
I've got an Oracle, and the Spells entry there states, in effect, that I get a cure spell equivalent to my level and additional spells determined by my mystery. It's all in one paragraph (under Spells, not Mystery).
So - I gain my first 3rd-level oracle spell after going into - oh, I don't know - Loremaster for some dumb reason. Do I gain:
1. One and only one 3rd-level spell of my choice, from the Cleric list?
2. One such spell, plus cure serious wounds?
3. The spell of my choice, cure serious wounds AND the spell my bloodline imparts?
I don't think anybody's arguing that 1. is accurate. 2. may be accurate, but if so, the same paragraph that's granting me that cure spell is also what grants me the "spell depending on your mystery"; the specific additions are sorted according to mystery, for reasons of clear editing, but the spells themselves appear to be part of the Spells class feature.
I am confounded!
Lincoln Hills wrote: I've got an Oracle, and the Spells entry there states, in effect, that I get a cure spell equivalent to my level and additional spells determined by my mystery. It's all in one paragraph (under Spells, not Mystery). Did you even read the oracle class before posting because this is simply false. I'm going to quote the paragraph that talks about gaining cure spells.
Quote: In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed. There is nothing in there about mystery spells. (The spells gained by oracles as they gain levels are specifically those on the spells known chart, which is clear because they are what was being discussed in the paragraph before this one.) Mystery spells are first talked about under the mystery class feature.
Quote: So - I gain my first 3rd-level oracle spell after going into - oh, I don't know - Loremaster for some dumb reason. Do I gain:
1. One and only one 3rd-level spell of my choice, from the Cleric list?
2. One such spell, plus cure serious wounds?
3. The spell of my choice, cure serious wounds AND the spell my bloodline imparts?
I don't think anybody's arguing that 1. is accurate. 2. may be accurate, but if so, the same paragraph that's granting me that cure spell is also what grants me the "spell depending on your mystery"; the specific additions are sorted according to mystery, for reasons of clear editing, but the spells themselves appear to be part of the Spells class feature.
I am confounded!
Since I've just dealt with how mystery spells are not in the same paragraph you should now be able to see why if 2 is true (which it is) 3 is not necessarily true (which it is not).
In the Spells section of Oracle, you gain Cure spells in addition to your regular list of spells known at each level. However, next section, Mysteries, it states that at each even numbered Oracle level you gain a new Mystery spell. Mystery spells don't fall under the Spells section, but Mysteries. So I would imagine that if you take levels in a PrC that would give you additional spells per day, you would also gain appropriate Cure spells as if you had gained a level in Oracle. You would not, however, gain new Mystery spells. Same way with Sorcerers. You don't gain bloodline spells for going into a PrC but you do gain additional spells known as if you had gained a level in Sorcerer. Dragon Disciple distinctly points out that you gain all the benefits of the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline, but also tells you at what point in the class you gain those benefits (including spells from the Draconic Bloodline spell list).
No, I didn't have the APG to hand. I appreciate the clarification.
Lincoln Hills wrote: No, I didn't have the APG to hand. I appreciate the clarification. You can always look Here or Here. Or you could ask if they're in the same place rather than stating, as a fact, that they are.
I appreciate the information, and value the suggestion.
And I'm sorry if I'm coming across harshly, that is not my intention. I just hate to see people posting false information in the rules forum where other people can read it and think that it is correct.
In honesty, it's a valuable reminder to me never to fire from the hip when it comes to quoting rules. The PRD is always there, at our fingertips. It's like we're living in the not-too-distant future!
Meanwhile, I'm still hoping we hear a ruling (or hash out a consensus) on the original question.
I'd like that to, but I'm afraid people have quit clicking the FAQ button. . . :(
I would click more than once if I could.
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I just realized this, but strictly speaking, the Blood of Dragons ability of the DD may not necessarily grant full advancement of the bloodline, as CalethosVB mentioned above.
It states that the character's DD levels stack with the previous arcane casting class for determining powers (specific sub-set of bloodline abilities) gained from the Draconic bloodline. It then goes on to state that it does not grant bonus spells unless the character already has the appropriate spellcasting level, but if the appropriate spellcasting level is gained, so are the bonus spells.
Now, I'm curious about how to read that. Is the first sentence referring to:
A) levels stack to determine Bloodline Powers (the abilities gained at level 1, 3, 9, 15, 20)
B) levels stack to determine Bloodline powers (all abilities granted by bloodline, including Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Feats)
If B is the case, then does Blood of Dragons stack with the Bloodline Feat ability granted by DD? Does a Sorc 5/DD 10 have 3 Bloodline Feats or 5?
Alternate question. Sorc 5/Oracle 4/DD 1/Mystic Theurge 10. As far as I can tell, this build indicates that a Draconic Sorcerer would have Bloodline spells up to Form of the Dragon III. Confirmation?
To throw in something that might be relevant, Oliver McShade linked the following FAQ in another thread:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
Emphasis in Jason's answer is mine.
Looking at Table: Sorcerer, the specific area related to the general spells a Sorcerer knows is Spells per Day; bloodline spells are referenced in a different section. I'd argue that shows an intent that they aren't included.
Interestingly, a Cleric's domain spells are listed there.
are bloodline spells 'spells known'? if not, how do you cast them?
Quote: These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. they are specified as 'in addition to' the 'base' table (under Spells class feature) which indicates they are 'of the same kind'.
is or is not the Spells class feature, or any distinction of class features ever mentioned in the PrCs' RAW?
feel free to say that makes your position uncomfortable, feel free to say you still believe 'intent' is different, whatever,
but if you can't acnowledge basic facts about the RAW, nobody can take your position seriously as a rules debate.
the point is that a consistent standard of rules interpretation must apply.
without a specific restriction to a sub-set of a general type, invocation of the general type applies to all of that type.
multitudes of abilities in this game successfully restrict their interaction to only one specific class ability.
it would make the PrC text shorter to just say it advances Spells class feature and leave it at that. that wasn't done.
if something in the base class also granted additional spells per day thru some random ability, that should also be advanced by these PrCs.
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btw, I wrote Paizo rules author Jason Nelson to ask his opinion on the matter of the inconsistent NPC Codex builds, he didn't write them and doesn't know who did (he worked on the Barbarian parts of that book). his personal opinion was that PrCs granting 'spells known as if gaining a level in the base class' allows for all sources of spells known, irrespective of class feature that contains them.
Anyhow, since the RAW just never mentions any class feature-specificity,
I never really saw it as a major unresolved issue by normal standards of reading the rules,
without specific Paizo feedback, the rules say what they say, and do what they so, no more, no less.
But the NPC Codex examples now show that Paizo's own products are not coherently applying the same rule/interpretation.
That in itself makes it important for Paizo to now address this directly. ...SO PLEASE HIT FAQ ON TOP THE THREAD
Quandary wrote: are bloodline spells 'spells known'? No, bloodline spells are the spells a sorcerer gains at certain levels. When he reaches that class level they are added to his spells known, but until he reaches that level they are not spells known, they are a part of a class feature.
Quote: btw, I wrote Paizo rules author Jason Nelson to ask his opinion on the matter of the inconsistent NPC Codex builds, he didn't write them and doesn't know who did (he worked on the Barbarian parts of that book). his personal opinion was that PrCs granting 'spells known as if gaining a level in the base class' allows for all sources of spells known, irrespective of class feature that contains them. I'll believe that when he posts it. And Jason Nelson is not the "rules author" he is a contributor and a fine author, but his word is not official in any manner. That said, it would go quite a ways toward showing intent.
Now I'm curious about any other prestige classed sorcerers, does anyone have any others they could check?
Quandary wrote: But the NPC Codex examples now show that Paizo's own products are not coherently applying the same rule/interpretation.
That in itself makes it important for Paizo to now address this directly. ...SO PLEASE HIT FAQ ON TOP THE THREAD
And we actually agree on something.
Quandary wrote: are bloodline spells 'spells known'? if not, how do you cast them?
Quote: These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. they are specified as 'in addition to' the 'base' table (under Spells class feature) which indicates they are 'of the same kind'.
is or is not the Spells class feature, or any distinction of class features ever mentioned in the PrCs' RAW?
feel free to say that makes your position uncomfortable, feel free to say you still believe 'intent' is different, whatever,
but if you can't acnowledge basic facts about the RAW, nobody can take your position seriously as a rules debate.
To be honest, I don't really care all that much if anyone outside the design staff takes me seriously.
My view is that you're reading more into RAW than what is there; since there are people in the thread who have posted an opposite opinion to yours, it seems more than a bit insincere to claim that I'm not "acknowledging basic facts about the RAW". I'm actually pointing specifically at tables from the book (which are about as RAW as RAW can get).
As to "Spells Known" - that is yet another table. And spells granted by Bloodlines aren't listed there, either. So, by a consistent standard of rules interpretation - that the correspondence of the terms Jason used with the labels on the class tables has a mechanical purpose - I don't see that Bloodline spells would be advanced.
I already tapped FAQ, by the way, because I agree that it's unclear. And if it turns out they advance stuff other than what's listed in the tables, then I'm wrong, and good for MTs, because they just became way more powerful (and I'll have to re-evaluate whether the recent SLA changes are going to make them too powerful).
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This is my favorite type of internet argument. 50% of people believe one thing, 50% believe another, and people are talking about "it's CLEARLY (x)."
Some people have a very questionable definition of clearly.
ShadowcatX wrote: No, bloodline spells are the spells a sorcerer gains at certain levels. When he reaches that class level they are added to his spells known So they would be spells known that were gained by leveling in sorcerer.
This is expressly given to them when they take a level in a PrC that gives +1 level of spell casting.
It does not distinguish between 'different class features' but rather mentions spells known. We agree that bloodline spells are spells known that are gained as the sorcerer levels.
Easy and done.
As to 'intent', Paizo added new ways for sorcerers to gain spells known that were not available when the text for advancing casting was written. So what was the 'intent' of the text for advancing casting? It certainly did not have bloodline spells in mind when it was written as they didn't exist. Likewise, many of the very nice Pathfinder changed did not have Prestige classes in mind when making them. I honestly do not think that there is an 'intent' here, but rather just the RAW currently.
-James
MyTThor wrote: This is my favorite type of internet argument. 50% of people believe one thing, 50% believe another, and people are talking about "it's CLEARLY (x)."
Some people have a very questionable definition of clearly.
People have always had the ability to bury their head in the sand, that doesn't change rather or not something is clear. But let us say that the RAW isn't clear and look at the other supporting evidence.
One side has 5 out of 6 NPCs, an FAQ, and a class ability that becomes redundant if the other side's reading of raw is correct.
The other side has 1 out of 6 NPCs and absolutely no further supporting evidence.
I'd say that's a landslide of proof in favor of one side over the other.
james maissen wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: No, bloodline spells are the spells a sorcerer gains at certain levels. When he reaches that class level they are added to his spells known So they would be spells known that were gained by leveling in sorcerer.
This is expressly given to them when they take a level in a PrC that gives +1 level of spell casting.
It does not distinguish between 'different class features' but rather mentions spells known. We agree that bloodline spells are spells known that are gained as the sorcerer levels.
Easy and done. So you really think that even though there's a big chart called Spells Known they were talking about something other than that chart?
Quote: As to 'intent', Paizo added new ways for sorcerers to gain spells known that were not available when the text for advancing casting was written. So what was the 'intent' of the text for advancing casting? It certainly did not have bloodline spells in mind when it was written as they didn't exist. No, but bloodline spells did exist when Paizo printed that text. You think they couldn't have said "spells from class features" in there if they'd wanted it? Or they couldn't have worded bloodline spells to make them a part of spells known rather than a class ability, because +1 to spell casting obviously did exist when bloodline spells were being created?
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