Prestige classes, spells known, and bloodline spells


Rules Questions

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Shadow Lodge

I have to second Xaratherus on that. Any thread that makes it to 100+ posts in Rules Questions almost certainly does so because one person says, "This is clear to me," and other people say, "No, it means this." The fact that other people say that means it cannot be expressly, explicitly, or patently clear. Like the Mithral pricing question that was recently resolved. That one was also patently unclear, despite people on all sides saying the contrary. Here, we have the same stalemate. I'll agree that this thread (and many others in this section) are clear when I am convinced that mud is transparent. :)


I'm actually in the minority who believes that bloodline and mystery spells are granted by prestige classes. But there's not much more for anyone to say; each sides positions have been stated, re-stated, and then belaboured into the dirt. No one's convincing anyone else of anything at this point; until we get an answer to our FAQ, we're just hoping to keep the topic visible so that hopefully it won't be two or three years old before it gets a response.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rae

Prestige Class: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances spellcasting, does that give me access to my higher-level bloodline spells?

No. Likewise, it doesn't give you any additional bloodline feats.
If you were an oracle, it wouldn't give you any additional mystery spells. (However, it would give you higher-level cure or inflict spells, as those are part of the oracle's Spells class feature.)
If you were a witch, it wouldn't give you any additional patron spells.
If you were a wizard, it wouldn't give you access to your higher-level school powers.
And so on.
Prestige classes which advance spellcasting only advance caster level, spells per day, and (for spontaneous casters) spells known—essentially, the spellcasting features described in your class's Spells class feature description.
(Note that the dragon disciple class has the blood of dragons ability, which explicitly states that you get your bloodline powers and bloodline spells; this is a special ability of that class and not the normal state for advancing spellcasting with a prestige class.)


Ooh so it appears by this view (which pretty much fits in with what I've repeatee 3x in this thread) clweics don't even get new domain spells. Which actually falls in line with most multiclass stuff. But I know most people use the cleric spellcasting chart to justify gaining new domain spells with prc.


Thank you design team.


So is the FAQ saying bloodline spells are not spells known, or what?
That seems the implication of saying "it doesn't advance bloodline/mystery spells" and "it does advance spells known".
Can we still cast them somehow?

If the response is meant to be "the intent is to only advance the Spells Class Feature even though that isn't stated in RAW"
then just state that upfront, even if that is essentially stealth Errata.
The FAQ just feels all over the place... Feats, Spellbook/Patron Spells, and other Powers are pretty tangential to the actual question,
yet seem to have higher prominence in the FAQ than addressing the core issue directly.
Other Classes/Archetypes besides Sorceror/Oracle may use these Casting PrCs, so having the 'rule' clearly stated is helpful for them.

Since other Class Features are brought into the FAQ despite not remotely falling under what the Spellcasting PrC wording grants (i.e. School Powers, Patrol Spells are not spells/day, spells known, caster level, etc, and nobody is confused on that), it seems odd not to discuss Wizard Specialty Slots or Cleric Domain Slots, given those also fall outside of the 'Spells Class Feature' which the FAQ 'kind sorta' implies is the (unstated by RAW) relevant discriminator of what is advanced and what isn't.

Silver Crusade

Thanks, PDT!

@ Mojorat: This has come up before. I don't see that the FAQ affects it. I believe domain spells do advance, since that's governed by the "Domain" class feature, which every Cleric gets at Lvl 1, instead of by the "Spells" class feature. (Unlike the "Bloodline" class feature, which is pegged to Sorcerer level, the "Domain" class feature [for its spells] is pegged to whichever Cleric spell level you can cast and Cleric level for its powers.)

Domains wrote:
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.

Shadow Lodge

Quandary wrote:

So is the FAQ saying bloodline spells are not spells known, or what?

That seems the implication of saying "it doesn't advance bloodline/mystery spells" and "it does advance spells known".
Can we still cast them somehow?

If the response is meant to be "the intent is to only advance the Spells Class Feature even though that isn't stated in RAW"
then just state that upfront, even if that is essentially stealth Errata.
The FAQ just feels all over the place... Feats, Spellbook/Patron Spells, and other Powers are pretty tangential to the actual question,
yet seem to have higher prominence in the FAQ than addressing the core issue directly.
Other Classes/Archetypes besides Sorceror/Oracle may use these Casting PrCs, so having the 'rule' clearly stated is helpful for them.

Since other Class Features are brought into the FAQ despite not remotely falling under what the Spellcasting PrC wording grants (i.e. School Powers, Patrol Spells are not spells/day, spells known, caster level, etc, and nobody is confused on that), it seems odd not to discuss Wizard Specialty Slots or Cleric Domain Slots, given those also fall outside of the 'Spells Class Feature' which the FAQ 'kind sorta' implies is the (unstated by RAW) relevant discriminator of what is advanced and what isn't.

I dunno. This looks pretty clear to me if you want stealth errata. Emphasis mine.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:
Prestige classes which advance spellcasting only advance caster level, spells per day, and (for spontaneous casters) spells known—essentially, the spellcasting features described in your class's Spells class feature description.

The references to other class abilities would be because:

-Patron/Mystery spells are essentially the same thing as bloodline spells
-Wizard school powers came up purely as an example of the "and so on" mentioned after it, essentially meaning that all powers that are dependent on class level do not advance unless otherwise stated (Dragon Disciple, Rage Prophet)

And I do thank the Dev team greatly for ruling on this one. The next time I'm up near your offices, I will make you cake and/or cookies. My apologies for being such a pest in this thread. :)


I don't find that FAQ 'clear' or ideal...
It is not stating the answer and DIRECTLY explaining the reason (or what 'stealth errata' is being applied).
Instead, it almost immediately digresses from the topic...
'Stepping backwards' thru 'examples' that wouldn't be advanced for entirely distinct reasons and thus don't clarify much,
to "touch upon" what plausibly appears to be this 'unstated design intent'...
but phrased so indirectly that it's not obvious this is the crucial part determining the FAQ result,
much less that there is some 'unstated intent' that the FAQ is superimposing over the RAW.

The first unbolded part of your quote is just the RAW quote (and exactly what was used to justify a reading to the contrary),
the latter bolded part is synopsizing those features (advanced by PrC) as the contents of the Spells class feature,
but merely giving that synopsis or description isn't really enunciating that said synopsis is being imposed as a functional rule.
Obviously the reason this FAQ is needed is because nowhere in the RAW is anything special noted about the "Spells" Class Feature,
so if there is something special about it crucial to the FAQ, that should DIRECTLY be stated as an actionable 'rule'.
Only after making clear what rules function is being imposed should 'corner cases'
or 'exceptions that proove the rule' be mentioned (Oracle Cure/Inflict, DD Blood of Dragons).

This would be clearer:

Quote:

Prestige Class: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances spellcasting, does that give me access to higher-level spells known outside of the Spells class feature?

No. When Prestige Classes state they advance "spells per day, additional spells per day, (for spontaneous casters) spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting", they are referring only to those features as granted by the Spells class ability, not other class features falling under those categories. The Spells class feature is usually synonymous with the Spells per Day and Spells Known Tables, but can include additional features such as Oracles' free Cure/Inflict Wounds spells known, which are also advanced by the standard PrC wording.

Some Prestige Classes may specifically advance other class features which fall under those categories, but they will call out that they are doing so (such as Dragon Disciple with it's Blood of Dragons ability advancing Bloodline spells and Powers.)

That could be phrased even more directly by just announcing that future Errata will change the relevant passages to advance the Spells class feature only.

Cleric Domain slots and Specialist Wizard School slots are "additional spells per day" outside of the Spells class feature, but probably should have their own distinct FAQ explaining they are features which "advance themelves" even though standard casters PrCs are not explicitly advancing them.

Shadow Lodge

For what it's worth, there is a world of difference between "clear" and "ideal."

I agree that your wording would be a more solid way of phrasing it, but I don't see their wording as unclear in any particular way. It states what is advanced, and then clarifies that as "the spellcasting features described in your class's Spells class feature description."

As for the additional cases described prior, part of the reason for mentioning those is to head off FAQs that could spawn from this one. Patron Spells are "Spells Known," Mystery Spells are the same as Bloodline Spells for purposes of the FAQ, the cure/inflict is not affected by this FAQ because it comes from the Spells class feature. There is absolutely reason to include the extraneous data in the FAQ because they're killing two birds with one stone. Sure, it could maybe be formatted a little bit better, or even just in a different order, but that doesn't change what it says.

As for clarity, I'm personally not seeing how it could be misread.
1) It answers the FAQ question directly and succinctly.
2) Following that, it tackles questions which were mentioned in-thread and which could have similar, related confusion around them.
3) Then it restates the root of the issue, which is the unclearly worded ability,
4) gives a clarification,
5) followed by an example that confirms the interpretation given by the clarification.

Could you please point out the lack of clarity that I'm not seeing? Not ideal wording, because I don't disagree with you there. I just don't see the lack of clarity.


I personally don't see any lack of clarity. Is it a spell granted by the Spells class feature heading and\or noted in the table(s) that is(are) near-synonymous with that heading? If yes, you get it. If no, you don't. A few exceptions exist, and are spelled out explicitly, such as the Dragon Disciple (which is perfectly sensible since specific trumps general).

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Except what can we say on topic? You're not listening to our arguments
I heard them, but the plain text of the PrC goes against it.
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rae

Prestige Class: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances spellcasting, does that give me access to my higher-level bloodline spells?

No.

Is the plain text of the FAQ clear enough for you?

P.S. Thank you design team.

Liberty's Edge

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Quandary wrote:

So is the FAQ saying bloodline spells are not spells known, or what?

That seems the implication of saying "it doesn't advance bloodline/mystery spells" and "it does advance spells known".
Can we still cast them somehow?

Please quit trying to read things in the worst possible light and just accept you were wrong, and the rest of us were correct. Bloodline spells are part of a class feature that adds spells to your spells known, they are not, in and of themselves, spells known.

Liberty's Edge

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Mojorat wrote:
Ooh so it appears by this view (which pretty much fits in with what I've repeatee 3x in this thread) clweics don't even get new domain spells. Which actually falls in line with most multiclass stuff. But I know most people use the cleric spellcasting chart to justify gaining new domain spells with prc.

Actually, they do, but not because of the + to spellcasting directly. If you read under domains it says:

Quote:
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up.

As such, domain spells are a pretty unique item, but they do advance with levels of the prestige class since the prestige class will advance spell levels.

Interestingly enough, one could probably make an argument that you could get a domain slot for each level of spell like ability you can cast, but that's beside the point.

Shadow Lodge

You could only make that case if the SLA was determined by the Cleric Spell List. If it's on the Sorc/Wizard list, no dice. I don't know that I'd buy that, though. I'd be interested to know if higher level Domain spells are still available to Prestige Clerics, or if they're limited to just the domain spells they already had access to. But that's me stirring up trouble. :)


ShadowcatX wrote:

[

Actually, they do, but not because of the + to spellcasting directly. If you read under domains it says:

Quote:
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up.

As such, domain spells are a pretty unique item, but they do advance with levels of the prestige class since the prestige class will advance spell levels.

Interestingly enough, one could probably make an argument that you could get a domain slot for each level of spell like ability you can cast, but that's beside the point.

Yeah, I see how it works. The prc raises spell level then domaind makes a check every time you gain a new cleric spell level.

In genetal regards to the whole thread I find generally a permissive vs non permissive reading s safest.

The wording for both sorcerers and oracles has always been clear (to me) that obtaining them on the spell list is tied to class level (not cl) and that you don't get them on the list of spells known until that point.


jlighter wrote:
You could only make that case if the SLA was determined by the Cleric Spell List. If it's on the Sorc/Wizard list, no dice. I don't know that I'd buy that, though. I'd be interested to know if higher level Domain spells are still available to Prestige Clerics, or if they're limited to just the domain spells they already had access to. But that's me stirring up trouble. :)

My brain is a little fuzzy but to point out, the FAQ on the 'type' of an SLA are dependent on the wizard\sorcerer list only if they come from race. If they come from a class feature, then they are based on what type of caster that class is.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:
jlighter wrote:
You could only make that case if the SLA was determined by the Cleric Spell List. If it's on the Sorc/Wizard list, no dice. I don't know that I'd buy that, though. I'd be interested to know if higher level Domain spells are still available to Prestige Clerics, or if they're limited to just the domain spells they already had access to. But that's me stirring up trouble. :)
My brain is a little fuzzy but to point out, the FAQ on the 'type' of an SLA are dependent on the wizard\sorcerer list only if they come from race. If they come from a class feature, then they are based on what type of caster that class is.

Point. Lately, SLA has defaulted to racial in my brain because of the various rules threads thing into that ruling. Like the "Do higher level SLAs count for lower level casting requirements" one.

Any that come to mind that would be relevant? Cleric class-SLA that might earn an early-entry domain slot? There is an interesting clause that might allow for extremely early-entry spell casting, if so.

Quote:
A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Could be interpreted that if the Cleric can cast spells (which includes SLAs), of level X, she can also prepare domain spell of level X in the relevant slot. Given an appropriate SLA granted by Cleric. Any thoughts, Xaratherus?


So are bloodline spells and mystery spells not considered known spells?

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:

So are bloodline spells and mystery spells not considered known spells?

-James

As has been stated before, they are a portion of a class feature that adds spells to the list of spells known at certain class levels. They are not, in and of themselves, spells known.

And people, my comment about spell like abilities wasn't meant to be taken seriously. That is far and away from the RAI, and the RAW of it is debatable. (Spell like abilities aren't specifically cleric spells, they're divine spells perhaps, but not cleric ones.)

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:

So are bloodline spells and mystery spells not considered known spells?

-James

Exactly. And I will preemptively add that you can still cast all spells you know, even if they are not considered "known spells" (which is the name of a specific class feature) ;-)


The black raven wrote:
james maissen wrote:

So are bloodline spells and mystery spells not considered known spells?

-James

Exactly. And I will preemptively add that you can still cast all spells you know, even if they are not considered "known spells" (which is the name of a specific class feature) ;-)

Which specific class feature would that be?

For sorcerers I see:

Weapon and Armor proficiency
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

Which one is it exactly?

And while you're reading the sorcerer section, notice how spells known and spells a sorcerer knows are used interchangeably.

-James

Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Design Team wrote:


Prestige Class: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances spellcasting, does that give me access to my higher-level bloodline spells?

No.

...What is unclear about this lol? And if "Prestige classes which advance spellcasting only advance caster level, spells per day, and (for spontaneous casters) spells known—essentially, the spellcasting features described in your class's Spells class feature description." was the original ruling it's pretty darn clear as well.


james maissen wrote:
The black raven wrote:
james maissen wrote:

So are bloodline spells and mystery spells not considered known spells?

-James

Exactly. And I will preemptively add that you can still cast all spells you know, even if they are not considered "known spells" (which is the name of a specific class feature) ;-)

Which specific class feature would that be?

For sorcerers I see:

Weapon and Armor proficiency
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

Which one is it exactly?

And while you're reading the sorcerer section, notice how spells known and spells a sorcerer knows are used interchangeably.

-James

Now you're being intentionally obtuse. Sorry to be rude, but you are. It says explicitly in the FAQ response:

Quote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rae

Prestige Class: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances spellcasting, does that give me access to my higher-level bloodline spells?

No. Likewise, it doesn't give you any additional bloodline feats.
If you were an oracle, it wouldn't give you any additional mystery spells. (However, it would give you higher-level cure or inflict spells, as those are part of the oracle's Spells class feature.)
If you were a witch, it wouldn't give you any additional patron spells.
If you were a wizard, it wouldn't give you access to your higher-level school powers.
And so on.
Prestige classes which advance spellcasting only advance caster level, spells per day, and (for spontaneous casters) spells known—essentially, the spellcasting features described in your class's Spells class feature description.
(Note that the dragon disciple class has the blood of dragons ability, which explicitly states that you get your bloodline powers and bloodline spells; this is a special ability of that class and not the normal state for advancing spellcasting with a prestige class.)

You don't get Bloodline spells because they are not granted by the Spells class feature. They are spells you can cast, spells that you know, but they are not part of the segment of the Spells class feature titled Spells Known.

If you'd like to ignore it in your game at home, feel free to do so; if you're going to play by RAW, then how it works is absolutely clear at this point.


Xaratherus wrote:
james maissen wrote:

Which specific class feature would that be?

For sorcerers I see:

Weapon and Armor proficiency
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

Now you're being intentionally obtuse.

You don't get Bloodline spells because they are not granted by the Spells class feature. They are spells you can cast, spells that you know, but they are not part of the segment of the Spells class feature titled Spells Known.

Actually, I'm being exacting.

First, 'spells known' is NOT a class feature. That was the claim of the other poster.

Second, it is not part of the Spells class feature. Consider what Paizo has done with the sorcerer 'class features'. Look above, and you'll note 'Cantrips' which also references the table of 'Spells known'.

Thus, that table is not within ONE class feature. It is not a subset as you're purporting. Spells known extend beyond the Spells class feature.

Now, does RAW distinguish between 'spells known' and 'knowing spells'? Some on this thread have claimed a difference. Yet when you read the Spells class feature section of the sorcerer, they are used interchangeably in the printed text.

What this boils down to is that Paizo via Pathfinder added a slew of ways to get more spells known than the table allows. It is now a question of what should mean what. But spells known vs spells you know was never a division.. and frankly would follow a horrid tradition of bad names (e.g. caster level) if they did so via errata.

Of late Paizo has been making some sloppy rulings and FAQ entries. This one is no different.

As it stands, taking levels in a PrC does not advance Cantrips known. They are on the table of spells known, but they are not part of the spells class feature, rather they are their own class feature. Certainly this is not in keeping with how people have played it at tables, or what is intended by PrCs advancing spell casting.

But then the spirit of PrCs advancing spell casting is that you could not tell them apart from non-PrCs in regards to spell slots, casting level, or spells available.

-James


I disagree, and nothing that you've stated appears (to me) to be anything beyond intentional misreading of a simple answer. I believe at this point that short of agreeing with what you believe to be the mechanics of PrC spell advancement, you will find issue with rulings - so no reason to discuss this further.


Again I really don't see why this was ever confusing. The bloodline class feature tells you exactly when you add the spells.

Can you use a wand with a spell not on the sorc list at lvl 3? No bevause as the bloodline class feTure states you do not learn them until specific levels.

Lantern Lodge

james maissen wrote:
Spells known extend beyond the Spells class feature.

You are correct in some cases they do... except in the case of Prestige Classes that increase spell casting level which has been clearly stated before. I'm actually amazed this got so many posts and technically the design team didn't even FAQ it they just shut down specific arguments because a FAQ was unnecessary.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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The text is clear. Thread closed to end nitpicking.

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