Prestige classes, spells known, and bloodline spells


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Shadow Lodge

Aioran wrote:

(This point has been mentioned up in the thread but I'll repost it)

james maissen wrote:
(and possibly curse spells) as spells known
"Oracle Spells wrote:
In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them.
They get Cures/Inflicts because the PrC adds to spells per day.

Actually, I think he's referring to spells granted by an Oracle's Curse, such as those granted by the Haunted Curse.


jlighter wrote:
Actually, I think he's referring to spells granted by an Oracle's Curse, such as those granted by the Haunted Curse.

Which wouldn't be granted either, since they're gained through improvement of your curse, which doesn't happen since that class feature isn't advanced by the PrC.

(But I think you know that already)

Shadow Lodge

True. I was just clarifying his point.


Oh wow, how did I miss that r... idk, maybe it got edited?

Sorry :x!


Aioran wrote:

Oh wow, how did I miss that r... idk, maybe it got edited?

Sorry :x!

No it did not, and yes I did mean via Curses that granted spells known.

Everyone here is fixated on which class ability grants what. Please read the text for advancing spell casting and notice it does not mention ANY class ability.

If the 'spells' class ability of a spell casting class granted some other boon that wasn't spells per day, spells known (if spontaneous), and increased effective level of casting these would NOT be granted despite being within the class ability.

On the flip side if a different facet of the class *did* advance those, these *would* be granted.

The PrC ability is giving the advancement of spells per day, spells known, and effective spell casting level as if the character had leveled in the old class.

Many can admit that if the character had advanced in the old class that they would gain spells known via bloodline, mystery, curse, etc. Thus, by the actual wording of the ability, these spells known would become spells known for the character leveling in the PrC.

I know it's not the way you've played it, or the way people have assumed it to be. But it is the way its written.

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:

But it is the way its written.

-James

No, it isn't. It is the way you interpret what is written. There is an important difference there.

But anyways, neither side is going to convince the other, let's just keep bumping this on Fridays, and hope for an actual response in the FAQ.


james maissen wrote:
No it did not, and yes I did mean via Curses that granted spells known.

I must have misread it then. Again, sorry D:

On a totally unrelated note and to bump the thread: I've always wondered, and forgive me for prying, but is there a reason behind using only lower case letters in your account name? :o


Aioran wrote:
I've always wondered, and forgive me for prying, but is there a reason behind using only lower case letters in your account name? :o

Just how I happened to type it in years ago.

Didn't really see the need to change it, give a fake name, or add a silly picture, etc. That can be fun for some, but I don't really see the need.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Aioran wrote:

Oh wow, how did I miss that r... idk, maybe it got edited?

Sorry :x!

No it did not, and yes I did mean via Curses that granted spells known.

Everyone here is fixated on which class ability grants what. Please read the text for advancing spell casting and notice it does not mention ANY class ability.

We are 'fixated' on it because in at least two FAQs the designers have stated that PrCs advance spells known and spells per day but not other class features.

Jason Bulmahn, 11\24\10 wrote:

Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
Jason Bulmahn, 11\24\10 wrote:

Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?

No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)

Bloodline is an a class feature of the Sorcerer that is similar to a Witch's patron. That class feature's spells are granted as the feature advances; like the Witch's patron, the feature doesn't advance with levels in a PrC.

Digital Products Assistant

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post and reply. Let's keep hostility/passive aggressive language out of the conversation, please.


Xaratherus wrote:
We are 'fixated' on it because in at least two FAQs the designers have stated that PrCs advance spells known and spells per day but not other class features.

Xaratherus.. spells known and spells per day are not class features.

The class features for the sorcerer are:
Weapon and Armor proficiency (simple and none respectively)
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

Now let us read closely what Jason is saying and what he is not saying:

Jason Bulmahn, 11\24\10 wrote:
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
Jason Bulmahn, 11\24\10 wrote:
No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)

In both cases he is saying that "+1 level of spellcasting" is limited to:

1. Spells per day
2. Spells Known
3. Increase in effective caster level

We are talking about spells known. That's on the list, while the ones mentioned in the FAQ are not. They are disqualified only because they are not.

Now let us read the actual written text:

Arcane Trickster's +1 spellcasting wrote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

This is in no way limiting the sorcerer to a specific class feature. None of the class features of a sorcerer are mentioned above at all.

Instead it instructs you to level in sorcerer and then only retain 3 things from it:
1. Spells per day
2. Spells Known
3. Increase in effective caster level

And that is what I am maintaining needs to be done. Simple.

-James


james maissen wrote:

Xaratherus.. spells known and spells per day are not class features.

The class features for the sorcerer are:
Weapon and Armor proficiency (simple and none respectively)
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

"Spells known" and "spells per day" are part of the Spells class feature. They are not specifically class features in themselves, but are part of a specific feature (in the same way that a Witch's patron is not a class feature, but is part of the Witch's familiar, which is a class feature).

james maissen wrote:
This is in no way limiting the sorcerer to a specific class feature. None of the class features of a sorcerer are mentioned above at all.

Yet the FAQ clarifying that very text does mention class features - or at least portions of a specific class feature. You can't just ignore that to suit your argument, and you are.

More importantly, those same FAQs also explicitly clarify that the Witch's patron which is part of the Familiar class feature for a witch) does not advance and grant additional spells known.

Let me ask a question: Since the witch's Familiar (a separate class feature) is specifically called out as not advancing and not granting additional spells known when gaining levels in a PrC, why do you believe that the Sorcerer's Bloodline would be treated any differently?

Or to phrase it in parallel to a question you asked earlier: Are you arguing that the Witch's patron spells are not part of 'spells known'? After all, we can say with 100% certainty based on that FAQ thatthose spells aren't gained with the PrC - so if what you're saying is true and other class features that grant spells that are included in 'spells known', why is this one (the Witch and his familiar\patron) different?

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:

Let me ask a question: Since the witch's Familiar (a separate class feature) is specifically called out as not advancing and not granting additional spells known when gaining levels in a PrC, why do you believe that the Sorcerer's Bloodline would be treated any differently?

Or to phrase it in parallel to a question you asked earlier: Are you arguing that the Witch's patron spells are not part of 'spells known'? After all, we can say with 100% certainty based on that FAQ thatthose spells aren't gained with the PrC - so if what you're saying is true and other class features that grant spells that are included in 'spells known', why is this one (the Witch and his familiar\patron) different?

I'll just preempt his answer, because he gave it at one point a while back (don't remember if it got redacted or not). His answer is likely: because a Witch is not a Spontaneous Caster, and so Spells Known are not advanced.

Sorry, James, to answer for you, but you had said it once already. Just wanted to save time.

That said, I believe the FAQ about the Witch is worded the way it is specifically to call out that the fact that it is a non-spontaneous caster is not the reason why Patron spells are not advanced, but that because it comes from a separate class feature, it is not advanced. Otherwise, the wording should actually permit Patron spells to be granted, since they are gained by advancing a level in the class and are added to Spells Known.

The reason I believe they aren't added, though, is because they are not part of the one place in each class where Spells Known is explicitly called out, that being on the Spells Known table of the relevant class. Bloodline Spells are never mentioned as Spells Known. Same with Mystery Spells. They are learned, but they are never called Spells Known, unlike Patron Spells.

Also, bump bump bump.


Xaratherus wrote:
Let me ask a question: Since the witch's Familiar (a separate class feature) is specifically called out as not advancing and not granting additional spells known when gaining levels in a PrC, why do you believe that the Sorcerer's Bloodline would be treated any differently?

Well..

Quote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

Which of the classes: Sorcerer and Witch, are spontaneous casters?

They get spells known, the others do not.

Mind you, I'm not very familiar with Witches.. do they even have spells known?

Now let me ask you a question:
If we take the wording of "+1 spellcasting" literally, and we also advanced in (say) sorcerer and only retained increased spells per day, spells known, and increased level of spell casting... why would we throw away the spells known gained by way of bloodline?

-James


jlighter wrote:
The reason I believe they aren't added, though, is because they are not part of the one place in each class where Spells Known is explicitly called out, that being on the Spells Known table of the relevant class. Bloodline Spells are never mentioned as Spells Known. Same with Mystery Spells. They are learned, but they are never called Spells Known, unlike Patron Spells.

So if we look at the arcane bloodline at 9th level (New Arcana) we explicitly have the bloodline give a spell known of the character's choosing.

Would you accept that as being granted? It is explicitly called out as a spell known.

Likewise some Oracle curses grant spells known.

Do you believe that at least these spells are granted by "+1 spellcasting" and the issue with bloodline spells is whether or not they are spells known? Or is this just obfuscating the issue?

-James


james maissen wrote:
If we take the wording of "+1 spellcasting" literally, and we also advanced in (say) sorcerer and only retained increased spells per day, spells known, and increased level of spell casting... why would we throw away the spells known gained by way of bloodline?

Because (as I've said before) those spells are granted by the advancement of the Bloodline, and the Bloodline is not advanced by taking a level in a PrC. They are not part of 'spells known' until the Bloodline advances to grant them; the Bloodline does not advance, and so the spells are not added.

Shadow Lodge

I was making a point of Spells Known being called out in very specific places, and Bloodline/Mystery spells not being one of those. I admit that I would have a harder time arguing against the New Arcana power of the Arcane bloodline and the spells granted by the Haunted Curse than I do against Bloodline/Mystery spells in general. That said, I don't think I don't have a leg to stand on when I say that those are granted by advancing specific abilities: namely, advancing the Arcane Bloodline or the Haunted Curse specifically.

We can all agree that, regardless of other things it may or may not advance, advancing Spells Known advances the Spells Known table, yes? It's not named specifically by any Spells class feature of a PrC, but we can agree that it is advanced, I hope?

Also, not going to be able to respond for a time, so please don't take any silence in the near future as concession of a point.


Sorcerer, Oracle, and Witch all get screwed when they multi class but cleric and Druid still get Domain spell..... Broke if fair for one then it fair for all. I do not care what table it on or not on. If one gets it then they all should.


Looking at the sorcerers class chart its pretty evident that the bloodline spells are connected to the bloodline class feature of the sorcerer. The xhart even clearly lists the levels you get them.

Prcs shoulnt advance bloodline spells unless it is clearly labled they do like dragon discople.


Xaratherus wrote:
james maissen wrote:
If we take the wording of "+1 spellcasting" literally, and we also advanced in (say) sorcerer and only retained increased spells per day, spells known, and increased level of spell casting... why would we throw away the spells known gained by way of bloodline?

Because (as I've said before) those spells are granted by the advancement of the Bloodline, and the Bloodline is not advanced by taking a level in a PrC. They are not part of 'spells known' until the Bloodline advances to grant them; the Bloodline does not advance, and so the spells are not added.

You level completely in the original spellcasting class, and then retain those 3 things which include spells known for spontaneous casting classes. Extra hps, skills, and all of that are disregarded.

It makes no allowances for what class feature granted a given spell known. It never calls out the 'spells' class feature or the 'bloodline' class feature.

It does not deny everything from either, but rather it denies all things except 3 things. One of those is spells known.

You admit that if the character had also leveled in sorcerer that the bloodline spells would become spells known. And hence they are retained.

-James


james maissen wrote:

So if we look at the arcane bloodline at 9th level (New Arcana) we explicitly have the bloodline give a spell known of the character's choosing.

Would you accept that as being granted? It is explicitly called out as a spell known.

Likewise some Oracle curses grant spells known.

Do you believe that at least these spells are granted by "+1 spellcasting" and the issue with bloodline spells is whether or not they are spells known? Or is this just obfuscating the issue?

I know this was asked of jlighter, but to toss in my answer: No, I would not. Why? Because in order to gain New Arcana, you must advance the Bloodline to 9th level, which is done by leveling in the class - and which is not done by leveling in the PrC. The spells granted by New Arcana are part of that class feature, and are granted by advancing that class feature, not through the same mechanics (spells known and spells per day) that grant you spells under the Spells class feature.

Tom S 820 wrote:
Sorcerer, Oracle, and Witch all get screwed when they multi class but cleric and Druid still get Domain spell..... Broke if fair for one then it fair for all. I do not care what table it on or not on. If one gets it then they all should.

None of the prepared casters learn any new spells from their Spells class ability when they level in a PrC.

That said, I do happen to agree that this should function similarly for all classes. As it stands, RAW I don't believe it does.


james maissen wrote:
You level completely in the original spellcasting class, and then retain those 3 things which include spells known for spontaneous casting classes. Extra hps, skills, and all of that are disregarded.

It does not state that anywhere, actually.

What it does say (based on the Mystic Theurge text) is that you "adds [add, sic] the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly."

That's it. It doesn't tell you to advance any other features.

And if those features do not advance, they do not grant the spells listed therein to your 'spells known'.

james maissen wrote:
You admit that if the character had also leveled in sorcerer that the bloodline spells would become spells known. And hence they are retained.

To rephrase what I said (because what you've relayed is not specifically what I said): Advancing a class feature to the point where it grants spells adds them to your list of spells known. If that class feature never advances, it is as if those spells never existed for the caster. They are not part of spells known until the class feature grants them, and the class feature does not grant them until it advances to the point where it says it grants them.

At this point, I don't know that it's worthwhile to discuss further. You believe that once you have a class feature, any spells that it grants automatically become part of your 'spells known' even if you never advance that class feature again; I believe that the RAW and intention is that those spells do not exist for your character until that class feature advances to the point where it would grant them - and since that class feature is never advanced, those spells do not exist for the character. Repeating ourselves to each other ad nauseam isn't going to lead to any changes.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As I said its simple. Are the bloodline spells a fu ction of the bloodline class. Feature or the spellcasting ability. The answer basically solves the whole discussion. As. Only dd advances bloodline.

Liberty's Edge

Mojorat wrote:
As I said its simple. Are the bloodline spells a fu ction of the bloodline class. Feature or the spellcasting ability. The answer basically solves the whole discussion. As. Only dd advances bloodline.

I agree. But it is obvious not everyone does. If you would kindly click the FAQ button (if you haven't already) I would appreciate it.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus, James is specifically using the wording from Arcane Trickster for his arguments. Just for ease of reference, the text is recreated below:

Spells a la Arcane Trickster:
Arcane Trickster wrote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Also, Xaratherus, Druids and Clerics actually do get their Domain spells even with Prestige Classes. It's for the same reason that they still get access to all their spell lists from advancing spells in the PrC. It's specifically called out at level 1 that they get access to the lists when they gain access to that spellcasting level, not from leveling.

That said, I tend to agree that it shouldn't be the case. But it is, I believe, RAW. No arcane casters get that benefit, though, that I know of.


@jlighter: Yes, I know that he's been using Arcane Trickster as an example. It's irrelevant. It seems pretty clear that although the Arcane Trickster table simply says "+1 of existing class", the text used in regards to gaining spells is identical to the limitations set in the general FAQs on PrCs that advance spellcasting ability.

So the rules will function the same whether we're talking about Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge.

Re: Domain spells, yes - I do realize they get them, and why; I disagree with the disparity, but I do agree that by RAW they receive them because of how the domain rules are worded.


Xaratherus wrote:

@jlighter: Yes, I know that he's been using Arcane Trickster as an example. It's irrelevant. It seems pretty clear that although the Arcane Trickster table simply says "+1 of existing class", the text used in regards to gaining spells is identical to the limitations set in the general FAQs on PrCs that advance spellcasting ability.

So the rules will function the same whether we're talking about Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge.

Then let us stick with the wording on Arcane Trickster for our arguments then, alright?

Here are a few instances (I'm on a slow connection so I'm not getting more, perhaps others differ in wording if you have a better connection we can divide them up into categories later if you wish):

Arcane Trickster wrote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Eldritch Knight wrote:
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Loremaster wrote:
When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Arcane Savant wrote:
At 2nd level and beyond, an Arcane savant gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Bloodmage wrote:
When a new bloodmage level is gained, the character gains new spells as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Rage Prophet wrote:
At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

As you can see, Arcane Trickster is not an aberrant wording of the advancement of casting. If you wish to hunt for ones that do not use this wording, then we can consider them separately.

Here the wording is clear that you gain 'as if you had [b]also[/]b gained a level in the other class'. It does not limit to a specific class feature, but rather as if you had fully gained a level in that other class as well. You then take from there a specific thing.

Let us suppose that a bloodline, mystery, or some other class feature outside of the spells class feature gave the character additional spells per day at a specific level.

From the wording above for those PrCs, would it seem as if they should get those new spells per day that they would have gained if they had also gained a level in that original class? It seems clear to me that they would, why would you deny it based on the wording above?

-James


I've already told you exactly why, James, and I'm not repeating it again. If you wish to find out, read my earlier statements in the thread, which make my reasons abundantly clear; I'm not wasting further time repeating our arguments to each other (that's what is going on; your most recent comment is a rephrasing of an argument that you've already presented and I've already answered).

Liberty's Edge

You know, this blows my mind. Nearly 200 posts and almost 50 FAQ clicks on a thread that I thought was open and shut. (And that I didn't even bother FAQing until probably somewhere around 30 posts. . .)


ShadowcatX wrote:
You know, this blows my mind. Nearly 200 posts and almost 50 FAQ clicks on a thread that I thought was open and shut. (And that I didn't even bother FAQing until probably somewhere around 30 posts. . .)

What is interesting is that a number of PrCs don't have any text explaining +1 spellcasting class. At least according to d20pfsrd.com...

There do seem to be one or two PrCs that don't mention spells known or increased effective caster level. That seems worthy of a FAQ in and of itself as one might assume it to be an oversight rather than intentional.

-James

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Seems very clear to me.

rules quote:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

At 7th level, and every six levels thereafter, a sorcerer receives one bonus feat, chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The sorcerer must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.

Both section are in Bloodline. Both are related to Sorc Level. Both don't advance unless you do as a sorc. If the bonus spells were part of the spells known they would be listed there and in the table at the appropriate level with a +1 or something like that.


noretoc wrote:

Seems very clear to me.

** spoiler omitted **

Both section are in Bloodline. Both are related to Sorc Level. Both don't advance unless you do as a sorc. If the bonus spells were part of the spells known they would be listed there and in the table at the appropriate level with a +1 or something like that.

Go first with the spells known that are expressly stated as being spells known, but are not on that table.

Go with the exact wording of the ability.

They should be granted.

There is no mention of 'advance only the spells class feature' and then retain only increased spells per day, spells known (if a spontaneous caster), and effective level of spell casting.

Rather it is see if you had also fully leveled in that other class and then retain those three things.

If you had also leveled in sorcerer then the bloodline would advance and grant those spells as spells known. Thus they are retained.

You can argue that bloodline spells are not spells known. It would of course beg the question.. how can you cast them?

-James


A little external search-fu turned this up:

James Jacobs posted over on the Enworld forums that it would not.

[edit]
Actually, to be be honest it might imply the opposite (although domains are the one thing that I agree that would be advanced, because of how they're specifically worded). I read this as I was getting ready to leave work and thought it said something it does not. I might go drop the question in the Ask JJ thread however, unless it's already in there and answered.

Shadow Lodge

James, here's a question based on what Noretoc just posted. The rules for bloodline spells:

Core wrote:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 3–15. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

Now, what I was wondering was, take a look at this section of that, emphasis mine:

Core wrote:
a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline.

Now, strike me if I'm wrong, but when you look at the Spells feature, it says to advance spells per day as if advancing in the class, then says that no other benefits are gained except spells per day, spells known, and caster level.

If Bloodline spells are, as explicitly stated, derived from the bloodline, and you don't keep the bloodline advancement that grants the bloodline spell, how does that allow you to keep the spell granted? To my mind, you might gain it when you advance the level, but it would go away from de-advancing the bloodline, just as if the character had gained a negative level. Your thoughts, please?

And, as we've mentioned earlier, Bloodline/Mystery Spells are never expressly stated to be Spells Known, unlike the Curse spells and the New Arcana spell we already talked about.


jlighter wrote:
If Bloodline spells are, as explicitly stated, derived from the bloodline, and you don't keep the bloodline advancement that grants the bloodline spell, how does that allow you to keep the spell granted? To my mind, you might gain it when you advance the level, but it would go away from de-advancing the bloodline, just as if the character had gained a negative level. Your thoughts, please?

I believe that your position is that when the bloodline advances that the bloodline spell becomes a spell known. Assuming this for a moment, or assuming that we have an Arcane Sorcerer8 taking a level in a PrC like loremaster that would as a sorcerer9 gain 'new arcana' which would expressly give a spell known.

Now, you are saying that when you advance the level you gain a spell known.

This is retained, even when the thing giving it (the level advanced) is removed.

Also retained is the increased effective casting level and spells per day.

Neither of these are part of the PrC where a level was taken.

In each case the source (the level in the other class) is removed, but these are retained.

jlighter wrote:
And, as we've mentioned earlier, Bloodline/Mystery Spells are never expressly stated to be Spells Known, unlike the Curse spells and the New Arcana spell we already talked about.

First things first. First we see if we can accept things that we can agree are spells known would be retained/gained by taking a level in a PrC that advances casting 'as if they also gained a level' etc.

Then we can discuss whether you wish to believe that mystery spells and bloodline spells are spells known or not.

-James

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
jlighter wrote:
And, as we've mentioned earlier, Bloodline/Mystery Spells are never expressly stated to be Spells Known, unlike the Curse spells and the New Arcana spell we already talked about.

First things first. First we see if we can accept things that we can agree are spells known would be retained/gained by taking a level in a PrC that advances casting 'as if they also gained a level' etc.

Then we can discuss whether you wish to believe that mystery spells and bloodline spells are spells known or not.

-James

Just to clarify, my statement was in response to this:

james maissen wrote:
Go first with the spells known that are expressly stated as being spells known, but are not on that table.

I believed that you were using this to say that Bloodline/Mystery spells were expressly stated to be Spells Known, which they (technically) are not.

As for whether or not a spell granted by New Arcana would be retained on a Sorc 8/PrC 1, I don't believe it would. It is expressly stated to be a Spell Known, but it is also a power derived from the Bloodline, and as such would be lost when the bloodline failed to advance with the spellcasting potential.

I believe that in the case of New Arcana, you would, in effect, not gain the Spell Known, because you would either:

a) gain it, and then lose it when the bloodline reverts to prior level, or
b) never gain it because the bloodline doesn't advance in the first place

That said, I believe that a Sorc 9/AT 4 would gain the second Spell Known granted by New Arcana because it does have the New Arcana power already. Conversely, a Sorc 8/AT 1 doesn't have New Arcana, and thus does not possess the benefits of said ability.


jlighter wrote:

I believe that in the case of New Arcana, you would, in effect, not gain the Spell Known, because you would either:

a) gain it, and then lose it when the bloodline reverts to prior level, or
b) never gain it because the bloodline doesn't advance in the first place

Why wouldn't you also lose the additional spells per day and effective level of spellcasting?

Wouldn't you lose that as well when the 'also' level sorcerer goes away?

As to b) why wouldn't it advance? If you also leveled in sorcerer, certainly it would, wouldn't it? You'd also gain hps, skills, saves, etc.

Then certain things would be lost.

You are right that bloodline, skills, hps, and even spells class feature would be lost.. except for the part that is said is kept.

And that includes spells known doesn't it?

Is there a caveat on where the spells known come from in the text? I don't see it, and neither can you.

-James

Shadow Lodge

You wouldn't lose the additional spells per day and effective level of spellcasting because those are specifically called out as being kept when you "lose" the stuff gained. As for why you would lose New Arcana, you would lose it because you would lose the effective increase in level to your Bloodline, which would mean that you lose the benefits of having the Bloodline advanced to that level, in this case the benefit being the New Arcana power, which you lost, and the benefits of New Arcana, which you can't have without having New Arcana.

Otherwise, you could argue that you take Sorc 8/AT 1 to gain the spell known from New Arcana, but you then lose New Arcana as a feature when you remove the gains (other than specific call-outs like increased spells per day, spells known, and caster level) of having taken a level in Sorcerer, which includes the New Arcana class feature. You then take another level in Sorcerer (or another PrC with similar wording to AT) to gain New Arcana again.

As for a caveat on where Spells Known come from, you are right in that it is not explicitly stated. Neither is the fact that characters cannot act after dead. It is, to my eyes, strongly implied by the Blood of Dragons power of the Dragon Disciple prestige class.


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People, seriously, there is no more clarification needed. All parties involved clearly understand the others' stance - they just disagree. I don't know why anyone thinks they're going to convince anyone else of anything at this point.


MyTThor wrote:
People, seriously, there is no more clarification needed. All parties involved clearly understand the others' stance - they just disagree. I don't know why anyone thinks they're going to convince anyone else of anything at this point.

^

Unless I come across something new (like the JJ post), I'm out until we hear from a designer.

To be honest, I don't terribly mind the back-and-forth though, as it keeps the thread on the front page. :P


jlighter wrote:
You wouldn't lose the additional spells per day and effective level of spellcasting because those are specifically called out as being kept when you "lose" the stuff gained.

And the same is true (for spontaneous casters) for spells known.

Thus they are also retained when you 'lose' anything else gained.

This is not tied to a specific class feature.. whether it be the 'Spells' class feature, the 'Cantrips' class feature, or the 'Bloodline' class feature.

Rather 3 specific things are retained. One of those is spells known.

You would not keep another facet of the 'spells' class feature beyond these three things would you?

The 'spells' class feature is *never* mentioned in the '+1 spellcasting' entry is it?

I'm not sure what your paragraph that begins with 'Otherwise' is trying to say, could you rephrase it? From the sound of it, you would try to claim a confusion of what would be gained from a second '+1 spellcasting' and that same confusion would also then apply to spells per day and effective increased level of spellcasting.

-James

Shadow Lodge

As I understand your logic, a (arcane bloodline) Sorc 8 who takes AT 1 does the following things:

  • determine the features that would be gained from leveling to Sorc 9
  • apply Spells Per Day, Spells Known from all sources, and effective caster level
  • discard all other features that would be gained

    What I see there, then, is a character who has the following class features from Sorcerer:

  • Spellcasting Per Day (6 1st level, 6 2nd level, 6 3rd level, 4 4th level)
  • Caster level (9th)
  • Spells Known (8 cantrips, 5 1st level, 4 2nd level, 3 3rd level, 2 4th level)
  • Additional Spells (identify, invisibility, dispel magic, dimension door, [spell chosen from New Arcana])
  • Bonus Feats (Eschew Materials, 1 arcane bloodline bonus feat)
  • Bloodline Powers (arcane bond, metamagic adept)

    Now, this character has gained a bonus spell known from New Arcana, as per your leveling process. Please, if I'm misunderstanding that, correct me. The following is based on the assumption that my understanding is correct.

    Now, assume that this Sorc 8/AT 1 takes one more level in Sorcerer. At Sorcerer level 9, he gains the following class features:

  • New Arcana, dimension door
  • increase spells per day one step, spells known one step, caster level one step

    Now, my understanding is that even though he already gained a Spell Known from New Arcana when he took AT 1, he can gain that benefit a second time by taking Sorc 9. He doesn't have the class feature, because it wasn't kept. All he kept was the Spell Known benefit of that.

    So, if he does Sorc 8, AT X, Sorc 1, he'll gain New Arcana again, gain another Spell Known from it because he gains the power, and walk out of the deal with one Spell Known that he wouldn't have had otherwise. This doesn't seem like unreasonable logic based on how I understand your logic for how the process works.

    Technically, as well, this process could be repeated multiple times with other one-level dips in PrCs with similar wording to AT.

    With regards to this question

    james maisses wrote:
    You would not keep another facet of the 'spells class feature beyond these three things would you?

    If there were anything else to the Spells class feature, then I suppose you might be right. The only things I can see that might be possible to give up would be the trading out spells at 4th (6th, 8th, etc.) level for new Spells Known. I don't know that that would be left out, so I tend to look on your question as a null argument.

    Alternately, if we apply your question to the only other arcane spontaneous caster class that existed when the wording was written, Bards might not have to consider for any spells he chooses going forward: every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music). Again, not something I think is actually lost, and so still null argument.

  • Silver Crusade

    Here's why you don't get bloodline spells with PrCs.

    Say you have a sorc 5 who is going into loremaster. When the character levels up they become a sorc 6, then lose everyone except spells known, spells per day, and +1 level of spellcasting. Then you add your loremaster 1 stuff and you're now a sorc 5/loremaster 1. Next time you level up, you select loremaster again. So when you add your level of sorc, the spells known, spells per day, and effective caster level all become level 7 equivalents, but every other class feature only advances to the level 6 equivalent because you lost it last time in the process of levelling up.

    Because of this, your bloodline feature never advances to a high enough level to grant you it's spells. Yes, by James' logic, you might get the bloodline spell from that first level of PrC, but even he has to admit you wouldn't get any further ones.


    I too am somewhat confused that this has gone on for a multitude of pages and posts.

    "Spells known" is a distinct concept. These are your spells that you choose and can swap out at every even level (4th and higher). These increase. We're all good with this, right?

    However, bloodline spells follow different rules to 'spells known' also.
    - They cannot be swapped out and must be taken, while a standard spells known you can swap.
    - You don't get to choose them and are tied forcibly to your bloodline
    - In some cases, they suffer other limitations (Infernal Planar binding is Fiending / devil only).
    - These spells are not required to be on the sorc / wizard list (Celestial bloodline gets Bless).
    - They also don't count as one of your 'Spells known' for the purposes of Max Spells known.

    As stated previously, these spells are linked 'bloodline' section of the sorc class, not the 'spells' section. Also as stated prior, the Dragon Disciple prestige 'Blood of Dragons' ability improves your bloodline powers, and it is in here the limiter that it doesn't grant 'bonus spells' unless your at a high enough level to have the slot (slower caster progression on the DD than pure sorc). I am un-aware of any source of bonus spells for a sorc that might be tied a Draconic bloodline aside from 'Bonus spells' that are a part of the bloodline.

    Unless there is a typo in the bloodline text in the SRD vs PHB, it says that the sorc learns bloodline spells in addition to their spells known. IN ADDITION TO. Not that they are added to, or become a part of their spells known, but 'These spells are in addition to...'. BTW, for reference, that's different phrasing to a witch's patron spells that do EXPLICITLY become a part of their spells known.

    We know that 'bonus spells from bloodline' are a concept that they have thought about because of the phrasing in DD blood of dragons. We also know that they are NOT called explicitly as something that progresses.

    Given the above, I am moderately curious to understand an abridged version of why some people still think that they would progress. Not why the above arguments are wrong. There are probably more holes in them than swiss cheese, but proving my points are wrong doesn't make yours right... just mine wrong. I want to understand what evidence there is out there to say that "Sorc bloodline spells are either 'Spells known' or 'progress as a part of the caster level'".

    Shadow Lodge

    @ Ecaterina Ducaird:
    The short version of the argument for Bloodline Spells advancing hinges on the following interpretation:

    Arcane Trickster wrote:
    Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

    If Bloodline Spells are Spells Known, then the bolded section would imply that they are kept when taking the level in PrC. Part of that argument is something along the lines of, "If they aren't spells known, how can you cast them?" The other big part of the argument is that the advancement never calls out that it advances the Spells class feature of the base class. Instead, it advances three things that aren't class features in and of themselves, and so anything that qualifies as part of those three things is something that is advanced.

    But yeah, the argument is that you figure out what you would gain from leveling in Sorcerer, apply it, then remove everything that isn't a Spell Known, Spell Per Day, or Caster Level.

    I disagree with this interpretation, for the record.


    Thanks, lighter. You saved me a lot of reading.

    And I must confess.... still not sure how this can not be open and shut. If we highlight that a little differently...

    Everyone seems to wrote:
    "... the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class..."

    Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't the fact that the first sentence is in reference to 'spells per day' render the whole sentence pointless when it comes to arguing about 'Spells Known'? Without the second sentence (which makes explicit Spells per day, spells known and CL increase) you'd only gain a Spells per Day progression, not CL or Spells Lnown. See above for comments about Spells Known.

    With respect to casting, it isn't explicit that it must be on your 'Spells Known' list, merely that you must 'know' it, and that bloodline spells are 'learned'. The SRD version (at least) of the Ring of spell knowledge doesn't say it's added to your 'Spells Kknown' only that you gain knowledge of it may now cast it as if it is on your 'class list' (which to me more commonly means the 'Sorc / Wizard spell list' not your 'Spells Known'). The Page of Spell knowledge though DOES make it explicit it's added to your Spells Known. I wonder if (taking a strict RAW approach) this would make a difference in the instances of UMD-ing an 'out of class' item or pre-reqs for crafting items...

    Do I agree with the call.... meyh... I think I saw some mention of witch patron spells and cleric domains elsewhere. I think I saw oracle also mentioned. I think they should be consistent. I don't overly care what that consistent is, but I don't want to hunt through on if a pally with oath against badness gets them, because it's different to a Druid with a domain.

    Shadow Lodge

    The Witch thing you saw was probably that Witches have been FAQ-ed and clarified that they very specifically do not get Patron Spells from PrC-ing. It's weird, though, because the way Domains are worded, Clerics/Druids don't suffer that same problem. They just get the Domain spell as soon as they can cast it. Wizards don't learn spells from taking PrC levels, even though they gain the spell slots and the school slot. Oracles will probably have the same effect as Sorcerers, whenever it does get clarified. Oathbound Paladins, based on the wording, look to me like they'll act the way Domains act.

    Liberty's Edge

    Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:
    I think I saw some mention of witch patron spells and cleric domains elsewhere. I think I saw oracle also mentioned. I think they should be consistent. I don't overly care what that consistent is, but I don't want to hunt through on if a pally with oath against badness gets them, because it's different to a Druid with a domain.

    They are consistent when you get into the nitty gritty. Domain spells for the cleric and the oracle automatically learning cure or inflict spells is tied to the spell level the characters are able to cast.

    Quote:
    A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast
    Quote:
    In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them.

    On the other hand, bloodline spells and mystery spells are tied to class level.

    Quote:
    At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery.
    Quote:
    At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline.

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