Battle Cattle?


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Dark Archive

So I witnessed an interesting tactic in a campaign two days ago, and wanted to find out this is legal?

The player was playing a 3rd level sorceress who happened to have purchased a Bison with 2 PP. Bison are large creatures that, for the record, have Trample that does 2d6+12 (half if saved) to anyone who fails their reflex save OR takes an AOO. You can imagine how breaking that is before, say, level 5 or so.

Now, the Bison was trained with the Trample command and the player made their handle animal check, and proceeded to be able to wipe out a squad of 4 guards for extensive damage. I can imagine that, were it able to accompany us in the rest of our adventure, it would have done similarly all around; after all, to get a Bison into play via summon takes Summon Monster IV, a 7th level spell.

I guess my question is "how would you handle this situation" and "how legal is it"? As a strict RAW, considering the legality of purchasing animals I don't see anything against this; but of course knowing Bison I would find it difficult to believe it would be intelligent enough to pull this off (I would at least use that as an excuse to not draw "perfect" trample lines. At the very least, I would deem the cow too stupid to tell friend from foe; it would trample the direction pointed and keep going.

So, how would you adjudicate this? Is it a legal tactic, and if so would you let the player control the battle cattle or would you just have them point a direction and go?


This has been brought up before (bison talk starts halfway down the page). It is legal.

GM's best recourse is to strictly enforce the Handle Animal rules. Move actions to attempt to command it, handle animal of 10 to make it do a trick it knows. I would have the GM control it, as it is not intelligent.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Did she make the Handle Animal check to train the trick? That should be noted on the chronicle. At any rate, it's fairly situational, and it required significant investment of resources (both wealth and skill points), so it doesn't sound too overpowered to me. A Barbarian with a greatsword could easily be doing that much damage on each swing, but for free.

Dark Archive

A barbarian can miss; the enemy is taking d6+6 no matter what, and takes 2d6+12 if they want the AOO or fail the reflex save. And a group of enemies all take it. It's also not too much investment (it's a sorceress with a trait, so Cha is high already, so level 1 you can "take 1" on the DC 10 to make them do the trick).

As far as wealth, it's 2 PP; which there are plenty of PP purchases, but it's still "effectively free".

If it comes up for me I'll probably just tell them to point a direction and charge the cattle down; it may make a lot of low-level modules trivial though if it happens too much. And it'd be funny if 3 PCs that travelled together made a crew of battle cattle that stampeded...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Would you prefer he had used a Feather Token: Whip at that level? Emulates a +4 bonus-equivalent weapon enchantment, with a +15 to grapple. Also attainable with 2PP.

So, what were you comparing the bison to when determining it was overpowered?

Dark Archive

Everything I suppose? We'll go with banned synthasists, who were combat machines but still couldn't do this kind of damage automatically at low levels.

And yes, it lasts one combat and uses up the 2 PP; the bison comes from combat to combat, module to module for those 2 PP.

And I'm not worried about it after level 5 or so (since HP are high enough to hate life but take it at that point); but it pretty much owns everything up until then


Someone the other day also made a lvl 1 barbarian with 29 hp for First Steps. There will always be things that are overpowered at any level.

You asked if it was legal, and what to do about it: it is, and there are a few things you can do about it:

from other thread wrote:

The issue here is not Ultimate Equipment but Animal Archive. Both a combat trained tiger at 500 gp or combat trained Lion at 300 gp are there and legal - though I would suggest people bringing the animal archive and section of additional resources to GM to prove it.

Even if the bison costs are changed, 150 gp gets one a combat trained riding boar.

GMs should also make sure the person paid for an exotic saddle, and if they bard the animals, take into account penalties to attack and the high cost.

Also GMs should remember, that unless the animal has the exclusive trick, the PC is not the only one who can command the animal. Game Writers who give their bad guys Handle Animal could cause some confusion in battle.

The Exchange 5/5

wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing? or does she stable it? when she leave the briefing, does she swing by the pasture and pick up Buttercup and take her thru the streets to the sewer entrance?

If the player puts the time/effort/resources into this one trick...ah...pony, why worry about it?

Picking an adventure at random, what happens when she takes this beast into First Steps #1....

Encounter in the Pickled Imp - can we say "Bull in a china shop"?
Encounter in the warehouse - How heavy is this thing?
Encounter with the Paracountess - wait... this encounter is going to be fun to run!
Encounter with the puzzle - "how'd you get that thing down the basement steps?!"
Encounter with Auntie - heck, she tells RANGERS to be sure and wipe their feet before coming into the house!
Encounter with Ledford - If she's dragged this big hairy beast thru the entire scenario to get it to the ally... that "mustache with feet" is likely to go first and kill the thing anyway (you watch, he'll crit it and then all she's got is half a ton of barbecue fixings).

but you know what? it'd make a great story. "I played in this one game where this lady drug a bison thru the whole thing! Talk about a 'MEAT SHIELD'!"

Dark Archive

Off topic... but how on earth do you have a barbarian at level 1 with 29 hp?

12 base...
+5 20 Con....
+3 toughness....
+2 raging....
+1 they have a boon that grants +2 to a stat
-------------------------
I've got 23 on the most HP-concentrated character I can think of?

And I guess the battle-cattle is "fine", in a sense; it's easy to overpower low-level mods. I didn't think about the scenario of having opponents use handle animal if they have that skill and the int to do that; does that come down to opposed handle animal checks?

Shadow Lodge

Thalin wrote:

Off topic... but how on earth do you have a barbarian at level 1 with 29 hp?

12 base...
+5 20 Con....
+3 toughness....
+2 raging....
+1 they have a boon that grants +2 to a stat
-------------------------
I've got 23 on the most HP-concentrated character I can think of?

Tribal Scars.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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nosig wrote:
wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing?

After encountering all the druids with their dinosaur animal companions, people get jaded.

Sovereign Court

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Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:
wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing?
After encountering all the druids with their dinosaur animal companions, people get jaded.

DON'T YOU JUDGE MAXINE AND I

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

pathar wrote:
Thalin wrote:

Off topic... but how on earth do you have a barbarian at level 1 with 29 hp?

12 base...
+5 20 Con....
+3 toughness....
+2 raging....
+1 they have a boon that grants +2 to a stat
-------------------------
I've got 23 on the most HP-concentrated character I can think of?

Tribal Scars.

They did not have a boon that gives +2 to a stat, but they did have a favored class bonus. :p


pathar and yiroep got it.

12 base
+5 from CON
+2 raging
+1 favored class
+6 tribal scars (lvl 1)
+3 toughness (human)

The Exchange 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:
wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing?
After encountering all the druids with their dinosaur animal companions, people get jaded.

yeah, but I usually have most people flee the street when they go by... except for the little kid who thinks "Scary Lizard" is cute.

"Can I pet your lizard mister? Can I ride him too?"
"Go away kid, you bother me!"

Grand Lodge

As a GM I would have explained to the player that while rules legal, I would only allow characters that had animal companions as a class ability have their animal contribute in combat. Without the mechanics of the animal companion ability, it is very easy to unbalance combat with all sorts of animal nonsense.

If the player wants to ride the Bison around as a steed out of combat, sure. If they want the damn thing to do the mission, fight their fights, trample their enemies, then no. Earning that 1 EXP means your character earns it. Not their damned buffalo.

If the player started bawling about how some jackass on the internet said it was rules legal and that I'm not allowed to refuse their bison god of war, I'd tell the player to go play with those jackasses on the internet. There are plenty of great players who don't need to base characters off pointless PFS General Discussion forum thought-exercises who I want to play with instead.

We seem to repeatedly be getting promotions of situations where the ridiculous rules-legal situation is supposed to be able to beat the PFS GM down and force them to capitulate. This is nonsense. As a role-playing game, we rely on the authority of the GM to identify nonsense like this and shut it down where appropriate. Anyone suggesting this is a 'murky' situation has taken leave of their senses. If you want an animal companion, take a class with it.

Sovereign Court

Ahh, glad to see the use of stampeding animals hasn't disappeared. You should be glad that it was only 1 and not 3 of them as is usually the case. Summoning a small herd of celestial bison was always a fun trick.

I was going to suggest just killing the thing but wow. It's got like 40 some hit points. Guess I was thinking of the Auroch. Against certain foes they could turn it against the party so it is a bit dangerous to bring along unless they teach it that exclusive trick or whatever it was called from the animal book that came out not too long ago.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Andrei Buters wrote:

As a GM I would have explained to the player that while rules legal, I would only allow characters that had animal companions as a class ability have their animal contribute in combat. Without the mechanics of the animal companion ability, it is very easy to unbalance combat with all sorts of animal nonsense.

If the player wants to ride the Bison around as a steed out of combat, sure. If they want the damn thing to do the mission, fight their fights, trample their enemies, then no. Earning that 1 EXP means your character earns it. Not their damned buffalo.

If the player started bawling about how some jackass on the internet said it was rules legal and that I'm not allowed to refuse their bison god of war, I'd tell the player to go play with those jackasses on the internet. There are plenty of great players who don't need to base characters off pointless PFS General Discussion forum thought-exercises who I want to play with instead.

We seem to repeatedly be getting promotions of situations where the ridiculous rules-legal situation is supposed to be able to beat the PFS GM down and force them to capitulate. This is nonsense. As a role-playing game, we rely on the authority of the GM to identify nonsense like this and shut it down where appropriate. Anyone suggesting this is a 'murky' situation has taken leave of their senses. If you want an animal companion, take a class with it.

I agree. And while we're on the subject, what's with all these people buying swords to do all their fighting? If you want to swing a sword around to look cool, that's fine, but if you want to earn that 1 XP, you should earn it yourself with your bare fists, not with a stupid piece of metal. It's the GM's job to shut down ridiculousness like this. If you want a weapon, take a class or race that gives you natural weapons.


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Andrei as a PFS GM you can't disallow anything that PFS allows. I don't even know if you can legally refuse someone a seat at your table, assuming you have room. I would suggest you petition Mike Brock if you think he made an error. I am not saying this tactic should be allowed. I am only saying that by the rules, it is allowed.

PS:That bolded area, and my lack of control in certain areas is one reason why I have not tried to GM PFS. I understand why the lack of control is there..<stops long winded speech>


Andrei, I have to agree with RDN. I think denying people legal choices will just invite more trouble. I know of many players playing small characters who buy riding dogs to ride into combat to improve their movement speed. By your rules they would disappear as soon as combat started. Plus, nothing in the rules support nuking non-class ability animals.

I hate to open this can of worms again, but I mean, are you the type of GM that will tell a Witch to not use her hexes? Or a tetori monk not to grapple?

I would however, enforce the "1 combat pet per character" rule if a player came to the table with 3 bisons.

There are players out there than can buy a bison and play it correctly without ruining the fun for everyone. If this player in question was one of those players, then who cares? Everyone had fun. If they were tramplestomping and dominating all the fights, then a simple talking to the player about it should be all that is needed.

If the players continues to be problematic, then players will eventually not want to play with that player anyway.

Sovereign Court

Minn Dal wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:
wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing?
After encountering all the druids with their dinosaur animal companions, people get jaded.
DON'T YOU JUDGE MAXINE AND I

Don't worry, we're not judging MAXINE, we're only judging you. :-)

Shadow Lodge

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Andrei Buters wrote:
As a GM I would have explained to the player that while rules legal, I would only allow characters that had animal companions as a class ability have their animal contribute in combat. Without the mechanics of the animal companion ability, it is very easy to unbalance combat with all sorts of animal nonsense.

You ... can't do that. This is PFS. You don't get to decide that PFS-legal things are not acceptable at your table.

I am very alarmed that a VL needs to have this pointed out to him.

Sovereign Court

Todd Lower wrote:
Minn Dal wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:
wait... this person is bringing a Bison through a scenario? Like, as in town? What do the people she meet say? I mean, does she bring it to the VC briefing?
After encountering all the druids with their dinosaur animal companions, people get jaded.
DON'T YOU JUDGE MAXINE AND I
Don't worry, we're not judging MAXINE, we're only judging you. :-)

Carry on, then.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrei Buters wrote:
We seem to repeatedly be getting promotions of situations where the ridiculous rules-legal situation is supposed to be able to beat the PFS GM down and force them to capitulate.

And yet the swearing and calling people jackasses is coming from the GM. So who's really the one beating people down to force them to capitulate here?


Ashiel built a priest for me once for an exercise that had used undead Aurochs as pets.
Didn't get to play him much, but it looked quite effective. He was 4th, and it would have been PFS legal.

Dark Archive

Yep; as a PFS GM your hands are tied if it is legal. And luckily this scenario had a in-game reason why it wasn't along for most of the ride.

It just suprised me at a low level module; that cattle could solo, well, pretty much anything... especially given GMs that give total control of the animals to the player. And as a player I'm not going to tell a GM how to run battle cattle. But it seems suprising to allow an effectively permanent-level-4 summons for any cha based-class at 1st level.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

Why did he have to spend 2 PP to get it? A bison costs 50gp. A combat trained bison is 75gp. It's listed as a riding animal. This is all from page 14 of the Animal Archive.

Yaks use the same stats as bison, and only cost 24 or 25gp. They seem more socially acceptable? Anyways, I've used a combat trained yak (bison) with one of my characters.

Most of the time, I can't use it for long. Most scenarios, correct, it just doesn't work. And I have to leave it behind. I only got to really use it in a few missions so far:

Night March of Kalkamedes - we tied him to a leader on it, and it was useful getting across the swarmp. Had to leave it behind at the gorge.

Green Market - didn't use it the first time in the market (yak+produce market sounds expensive real fast), but used it on the plant hunt and the second time in the market (it was hauling away the dirt from the excavation.)

Web of Corruption - we used it when we went down to the docks. Looped the ship's lines on the horns and had it pull the ship closer to the docks to make it easier to get on board.

Way of the Kirin - we put it in the doorway of the house, ready to attack anyone who made it in. Baddies never came through that door thou - always went to windows.

The character is now level 7, and those are the only times I've been able to use it. Granted a lot of GM credit involved, but still. It's hard to use it in most scenarios.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Bringing a CR 4 or CR 5 creature into a sub-tier 1-2 scenario, is game-breaking.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Perhaps we could lobby for some kind of "Non-class-granted animals with more than X hit dice are not available" alteration to Additional Resources?

EDIT: Or maybe "Non-class-granted animals are never Always Available, and cannot be purchased with Prestige Points"?

Or "A character cannot own a non-class-granted animal with hit dice greater than the character's level"? (Or level+1, or whatever.)

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:

Perhaps we could lobby for some kind of "Non-class-granted animals with more than X hit dice are not available" alteration to Additional Resources?

EDIT: Or maybe "Non-class-granted animals are never Always Available, and cannot be purchased with Prestige Points"?

Or "A character cannot own a non-class-granted animal with hit dice greater than the character's level"? (Or level+1, or whatever.)

or just add the animals CR into the calculation for APL?

The Exchange 5/5

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Jiggy wrote:

Perhaps we could lobby for some kind of "Non-class-granted animals with more than X hit dice are not available" alteration to Additional Resources?

EDIT: Or maybe "Non-class-granted animals are never Always Available, and cannot be purchased with Prestige Points"?

Or "A character cannot own a non-class-granted animal with hit dice greater than the character's level"? (Or level+1, or whatever.)

no mounted first level PCs?


I would just go with the first one. Cap it at 2 HD which should take care of riding dogs and horses.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nosig wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Perhaps we could lobby for some kind of "Non-class-granted animals with more than X hit dice are not available" alteration to Additional Resources?

EDIT: Or maybe "Non-class-granted animals are never Always Available, and cannot be purchased with Prestige Points"?

Or "A character cannot own a non-class-granted animal with hit dice greater than the character's level"? (Or level+1, or whatever.)

no mounted first level PCs?

I was trying to phrase it in ways that wouldn't prevent buying combat horses/dogs as normal.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I'm also wondering how she trained the Bison for Trampling.

That is not one of the tricks available in the Core Rule Book or the Animal Archive. And Mike has already clarified that you cannot create your own tricks.

So how did this trick get past the GM?

And even if the GM could conceivably let someone create their own trick, the Bison comes combat trained, which is 6 tricks, which is the maximum a store-bought pet will ever know.

They will not get the "attack anything" trick.

Now granted, if you command it to attack, it will likely choose to use Trample as that is its natural attack mode.

But to command it to specifically trample, you'd need to push at DC 25.


Andrew Christian wrote:
Bringing a CR 4 or CR 5 creature into a sub-tier 1-2 scenario, is game-breaking.

It can be game breaking depending on the scenario. As it has been pointed out it may not even be usable, but I see your point..:)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Off-topic: Did the sorcerer in question wear a red and white baseball cap?
"Pikumoo I choose you!"

On-topic: Somebody beat me to the question on the Trained Trample trick.
Even with a cha-based character, spending full-round action to push the Auroch with a DC 25 Handle Animal check is a decent investment in terms of action economy and chance of success versus reward.

And you'd have to push it again to have it attack non-natural creatures.

And +2 DC if the animal is wounded.

The Exchange

I see the Heel trick says "The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn't go." I hope the PC uses a Move action to get out the bison's way before they order it to trample...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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I am picturing Daffy Duck with a really stupid-looking Chuck Jones bison, trying to get a DC 25 check to get it to trample Bugs.

It walks over to the rabbit.

Bison: "Excuse me, but my li'l buddy wants me to step all over you."
Bugs: (carrot munching) "Ya sure about that, doc?"
Bison: (looks back at Daffy, who nods vigorously) "I think so."
Bugs:"'Cause the way I heard 'im, he told you to attack me."
Bison: (blank look) "Yeah?"
Bugs: "And I don't think he ever said how."
Daffy: "Oh, fer cryin' out --"
Bugs:"Did he really tell you to step all over me."
Bison: "But ... that's how I attack people."
Bugs:"Y'know what I think, doc? I think he wants you to challenge me to ... a game of chess!"
Daffy: "This is ridiculous!"
Bison: "I'm not very good at chess..."
Bugs:"But that's how you'd attack him."
Daffy: "No! No it's not! If you were going to attack me, you'd trample!"
Bugs:"Oh, I don't think so."
Daffy: "Yes! Yes he would! He'd trample me! Trample me! Trample me!"
Bison: "Okay ..." (tramples Daffy, then goes skipping off)
Daffy: "You're despicable!"

The Exchange

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I'm curious, if I'm a bad guy and I observe a PC order a bison to trample, on my turn can I give the bison the same order and turn it against the party? Perhaps an opposed check would be called for? Providing I am trained in Handle Animal, this could break a lot of players from abusing this campaign feature down the road.


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Note to self: Give all future NPC's one rank in Handle Animal.

5/5

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Doug Miles wrote:
I'm curious, if I'm a bad guy and I observe a PC order a bison to trample, on my turn can I give the bison the same order and turn it against the party? Perhaps an opposed check would be called for? Providing I am trained in Handle Animal, this could break a lot of players from abusing this campaign feature down the road.

You can, unless the bison has the exclusive trick from Animal Archive.

The Exchange 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

I am picturing Daffy Duck with a really stupid-looking Chuck Jones bison, trying to get a DC 25 check to get it to trample Bugs.

It walks over to the rabbit.

Bison: "Excuse me, but my li'l buddy wants me to step all over you."
Bugs: (carrot munching) "Ya sure about that, doc?"
Bison: (looks back at Daffy, who nods vigorously) "I think so."
Bugs:"'Cause the way I heard 'im, he told you to attack me."
Bison: (blank look) "Yeah?"
Bugs: "And I don't think he ever said how."
Daffy: "Oh, fer cryin' out --"
Bugs:"Did he really tell you to step all over me."
Bison: "But ... that's how I attack people."
Bugs:"Y'know what I think, doc? I think he wants you to challenge me to ... a game of chess!"
Daffy: "This is ridiculous!"
Bison: "I'm not very good at chess..."
Bugs:"But that's how you'd attack him."
Daffy: "No! No it's not! If you were going to attack me, you'd trample!"
Bugs:"Oh, I don't think so."
Daffy: "Yes! Yes he would! He'd trample me! Trample me! Trample me!"
Bison: "Okay ..." (tramples Daffy, then goes skipping off)
Daffy: "You're despicable!"

and with this I think Chris just won the thread...

I so want to try this at a table now.

The Exchange 5/5

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Doug Miles wrote:
I'm curious, if I'm a bad guy and I observe a PC order a bison to trample, on my turn can I give the bison the same order and turn it against the party? Perhaps an opposed check would be called for? Providing I am trained in Handle Animal, this could break a lot of players from abusing this campaign feature down the road.

why do you need to be trained in Handle Animal?

from the skill in the CRB...
Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can't teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can't teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals.

Bugs doesn't have any ranks in HA, he just has a really BIG CHA...

The Exchange

If I wasn't trained and didn't have a big CHA bonus, it would make the odds of the tactic working a lot worse. That's all I meant by being trained. It's not a deterrent unless the tactic actually works.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The problem with an NPC commanding a pet or animal companion to do something is:

If the animal is attacking the NPC, then they are hostile. The NPC would need to first make them helpful (which is impossible to do in a combat, as you can only move the attitude of a creature two steps in a given day), and then you can try to command them.

The Exchange 5/5

Doug Miles wrote:
If I wasn't trained and didn't have a big CHA bonus, it would make the odds of the tactic working a lot worse. That's all I meant by being trained. It's not a deterrent unless the tactic actually works.

Daffy Druid: Handle Animal (+0 CHA, +1 rank, +3 Class skill, +2 training harness) = +6

Bugs Bard: Handle Animal (+5 CHA, +0 ranks, +0 extras) = +5

Daffy rolls a 3 (result is 9) and fails to even get the Bison to attack.
Bugs rolls a 20 (result is 25) and gets the Bison to do something it's not even trained to do - play chess?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

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I'm glad that I have been "steer"ed in the right direction by this thread. I found it quite "MOO"ving.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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wraithstrike wrote:

Andrei as a PFS GM you can't disallow anything that PFS allows. I don't even know if you can legally refuse someone a seat at your table, assuming you have room. I would suggest you petition Mike Brock if you think he made an error. I am not saying this tactic should be allowed. I am only saying that by the rules, it is allowed.

PS:That bolded area, and my lack of control in certain areas is one reason why I have not tried to GM PFS. I understand why the lack of control is there..<stops long winded speech>

While generally I agree with you, a GM has the choice to remove himself from the table, and then nobody gets to play.


I think there should be an HD or CR limit by your level for bought animals. A buddy of mine has a combat ram at level 1 and I don't think that's overly game breaking to the point where the GM has to play "Ah hah! Gotcha!" with the handle animal rules. Similarly, I can see a level 5 character using a bison and not overpower the encounters.

The ability to buy stronger mounts are needed because there are classes that are mounted combatants that don't get access to special mounts without multi-classing, like the Sohei.

Sovereign Court

Netopalis wrote:
I'm glad that I have been "steer"ed in the right direction by this thread. I found it quite "MOO"ving.

(How does one type out a Bronx Cheer?) Well anyway, Yech! :-0

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