I keep saying, and people keep not hearing, that LAWFUL EVIL will be the place for players who want to be really powerful bad dudes. CHAOTIC EVIL will be the place for a*#!#$#s.
This is seriously discouraging and bodes ill for the moral of this project. It is hoped that the implications of the statement are not to be taken as hard fact and that it does not contradict this:
Hey guys,
I haven't read this whole thread, but Stephen, Ryan, and Lisa keep me updated as to the highlights. Trying to follow this whole conversation would mean I don't get any work done.
A few points I wanted to clarify:
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*Settlement alignment will determine what structures can be built and what those structures can accomplish, but this does not necessarily denote a power differential. For example any settlements of any alignment can build a wizard tower for training, but only evil towns will be able to get Necromancy training in their wizard tower. Meanwhile only Lawful Good towns will have Paladin training facilities, and only Lawful settlements can have Monk training facilities, but in turn cannot have Barbarian training facilities. Also a Chaotic settlement can't have a Hellknight outpost, nor an Evil settlement have a temple of Iomedae, but a good settlement can't have a temple of Lamashtu. These options aren't necessarily better than the other, but they are different.*Reputation on the other hand have a major power effect on settlements and what they can build. Low Reputation will mean your town is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, not the sort of thing that attracts high end trainers, scholars, merchants, etc. Reputation is generally lowered by more grief oriented PvP, which also often will trend a PC towards CE, so if a settlement has a low Reputation it will most likely also be CE. This is not necessarily true, but likely. If you have a town full of CE people who are bloodthirsty barbarians who don't do a lot of griefing but instead are declaring war all the time, they can totally have a high Reputation, max level Barbarian trainer, etc (but not a Monk trainer since they are Chaotic, a only CN/NE/NE temples, and inefficient upkeep costs). One of the reasons for settlement Reputation is to discourage pointless griefing on a social level; if someone from your town is out ganking new players and tanking his Reputation that affects the whole town's Reputation and you don't want him to do that.
*Settlements cost money to upkeep; if they run out buildings begin shutting down and are eventually destroyed if the money is not paid. Settlement's can levy taxes on various interactions such as posting goods on the auction house, training costs, etc. The less lawful a settlement is, the more of these taxes it loses to graft and disorganization. So a Chaotic settlement will require more work to keep it funded while a Lawful settlement will be easier to keep funded.
*For settlements to really prosper and grow, they have to be open to PvP. You can build a LG settlement of PvE and crafting players that keeps its PvP availability small, but it won't be a very impressive settlement.
@ Ryan Dancey This game is your baby and can be whatever you want it to be. No promises of absolute balance of philosophies or play styles have ever been given and that is understood. Acheron seeks to provide some competitive player content for everyone despite mechanical difficulties.
A question directly and non vaguely answered here would be very appreciated:
In your opinion will it be worth all of the trouble to gather the few alignments allowed by a Chaotic Evil settlement, overcome the non lawful disadvantages, the struggle to maintain descent reputation, and the constant threat of aggression or will it be so unfavorable to the design that it is ridiculous?
Thank You for your time.
Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know the answer, nor am I providing it, but the way I see Alignments and other choices you make in game is NOT necessarily ONLY in terms of POWER. If you pick alignment it's hopefully a different game experience. A large part of that is a different social experience ie players with similar goals or ideas about how they want to play the game, sustainably.
My guess is that is a more applicable context than the perennial "all paths of power lead to Rome": If you choose to head North you are not on the road to Rome especially when it is icy! As said that's my guess. I personally don't see a problem with that; minority alignments might have their OWN rewards??
My understanding is that Alignment plays a role, but Reputation makes the substantial difference. I'm equally curious about an answer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I keep saying, and people keep not hearing, that LAWFUL EVIL will be the place for players who want to be really powerful bad dudes. CHAOTIC EVIL will be the place for a*#!#$#s.
I remember reading similar statements before but I'd like to see the conversation it's taken from if you could link it for us. I'm just curious to see where this topic came up again.
We'll see what happens when the real poll comes out, as anyone can generate an email account, then a paizo account, then vote. IP addresses can be changed through a variety of different methods. So that poll is anything but authentic.
I find the baseless implications being made here very classy. But then you've always struck me as a classy guy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Anathema
Here in this post is some hope
@All - There will be bandits.
There won't be bandits on every trail, every 10 feet, comprised of newbie players and newbie characters in it for the lulz.
Bandits will be careful. They'll pick their targets well. They'll often ransom the cargos rather than kill the teamsters.
A lot of Bandits will be chaotic evil. They'll cope. They'll find ways to make that work for them. It's not an easy road - but it is a road. I doubt there will be any wilderness areas in the game where you will not constantly have to be on your guard, ready to fight or flee, should someone come at you with bad intent.
Being a highwayman is hard freakin' work. That's why there's not a lot of them. Always on the run, hunted by those who seek rewards, dealing with a crappy reputation; this is the life you choose.
There's a fractal space of "characters who attack other characters" and being a simple bandit is one very small portion of that fractal space.
When you go to war, having teams disrupt logistics and supply lines will be a critical tactic. Some characters will do that.
When someone transport very valuable items they create a juicy target, a single act of highway robbery won't destroy your alignment. Some characters will specialize in the high-reward, low-impact strike.
We'll likely declare some areas free-for-all zones where conditions are so bad that nobody gets any penalty for whacking anyone. Where, how, why, how large, etc. all to be determined, but that is the kind of thing I'd expect in a land like the River Kingdoms. Of course, you'd have to be mad to go into such an area without being able to hold your own.... no easy targets.
The hope is that:
1. Ryan dancey sticks to his guns and allows for there to be an FFA zone.
2. That that zone either buffers a few settlement areas from others.
3. That the FFA zone is a moat around a few settlement hexes or at least one.
4. Drop the idea that Chaotic Evil by itself as an alignment needs to be punished in its DI, but still maintain the impact of low reputation.
CE should equal different structures, not lesser structures only. The argument that that DI should suffer because of Chaos or Evil, especially when they are combined, disregards the possibility that CE is the type of society that makes Its Residents happy.
If you still proceed with your plans to build this settlement, you will have the full support and votes of The UnNamed Company to advance you as best we can in the upcoming (revised) Land Rush poll.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I keep saying, and people keep not hearing, that LAWFUL EVIL will be the place for players who want to be really powerful bad dudes. CHAOTIC EVIL will be the place for a*#!#$#s.I remember reading similar statements before but I'd like to see the conversation it's taken from if you could link it for us. I'm just curious to see where this topic came up again.
There we go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@All - There will be bandits.
From Request: Please get this stuff cleared up before the Kickstarter expires, for the record.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love the idea of Acheron. Depending on how the reputation system will work me and my associates may set up our main characters base in this city (and if we are welcome ofc). If our activities will be considered "griefing" even though we don't mean to "grief" we will stay clear.
In any case we will certainly set up one affiliated "legitimate" storage facility and make use of your market in order to launder our income from operations, like we will be doing in most cities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We'll see what happens when the real poll comes out, as anyone can generate an email account, then a paizo account, then vote. IP addresses can be changed through a variety of different methods. So that poll is anything but authentic.I find the baseless implications being made here very classy. But then you've always struck me as a classy guy.
He was actually speaking to the fact that we (Pax Aeternum) had several votes appear on our Landrush Poll that we could not account for. Further delving showed that it was more than likely someone 'plussing up' our numbers or trying to cause strife when our numbers were close to another organization (I think specifically when we first climbed towards The Seventh Veil the first time).
It was very easy to have erroneous votes added to the Land Rush poll, and it will be nice to see the actual numbers without those off votes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He was actually speaking to the fact that we (Pax Aeternum) had several votes appear on our Landrush Poll that we could not account for. Further delving showed that it was more than likely someone 'plussing up' our numbers or trying to cause strife when our numbers were close to another organization (I think specifically when we first climbed towards The Seventh Veil the first time).
I confess! I did it! I couldn't stand the pressure of being part of the second biggest (at the time) guild, and I was trying to impress Dak...
</silliness>
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Goblin Squad Member
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We'll see what happens when the real poll comes out, as anyone can generate an email account, then a paizo account, then vote. IP addresses can be changed through a variety of different methods. So that poll is anything but authentic.I find the baseless implications being made here very classy. But then you've always struck me as a classy guy.He was actually speaking to the fact that we (Pax Aeternum) had several votes appear on our Landrush Poll that we could not account for. Further delving showed that it was more than likely someone 'plussing up' our numbers or trying to cause strife when our numbers were close to another organization (I think specifically when we first climbed towards The Seventh Veil the first time).
It was very easy to have erroneous votes added to the Land Rush poll, and it will be nice to see the actual numbers without those off votes.
How is it possible to cheat on the poll unless the tally masters don't do their homework? It is clear that you have to be a "Goblin Squad Member" to vote at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is it possible to cheat on the poll unless the tally masters don't do their homework? It is clear that you have to be a "Goblin Squad Member" to vote at all.
The first Land Rush was not limited to just Goblin Squad Members. Some of those votes were from people who did not contribute to the KS or who had, but then withdrew their pledge.
It was also unclear to some, that it was not just a popularity contest or that they could change their vote even after having left the group they intended to play with.
Not all companies were represented in the Land Rush, even though they upgraded to a Guild Pledge afterwards.
The Land Rush is being redone, from scratch and with more valid voter identification (ie tied to a Goblin Squad Member account).
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Goblin Squad Member
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He was actually speaking to the fact that we (Pax Aeternum) had several votes appear on our Landrush Poll that we could not account for. Further delving showed that it was more than likely someone 'plussing up' our numbers or trying to cause strife when our numbers were close to another organization (I think specifically when we first climbed towards The Seventh Veil the first time).I confess! I did it! I couldn't stand the pressure of being part of the second biggest (at the time) guild, and I was trying to impress Dak...
</silliness>
Ah ha! At last he confesses!
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is it possible to cheat on the poll unless the tally masters don't do their homework? It is clear that you have to be a "Goblin Squad Member" to vote at all.The first Land Rush was not limited to just Goblin Squad Members. Some of those votes were from people who did not contribute to the KS or who had, but then withdrew their pledge.
It was also unclear to some, that it was not just a popularity contest or that they could change their vote even after having left the group they intended to play with.
Not all companies were represented in the Land Rush, even though they upgraded to a Guild Pledge afterwards.
The Land Rush is being redone, from scratch and with more valid voter identification (ie tied to a Goblin Squad Member account).
Ahh. Thanks Bluddwolf. That poll was before my time.
Edit: Thanks to you too, Mr. Krows. I understand now. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is it possible to cheat on the poll unless the tally masters don't do their homework? It is clear that you have to be a "Goblin Squad Member" to vote at all.
If I remember correctly (it's been a few months), you could easily just vote again; either that, or it wasn't completely tied to the "Goblin Squad Member" requirement.
Throwing myself under the bus here, but I did in fact +1 Pax Aeternum's numbers in an effort to test it. Yes, I know; I apologize, PfO Community. However, it did work, and I had already voted as a +6 with my Guild Kickstarter Package.
In any case, Bludd and Areks are both right; the poll wasn't 100% perfect, GW knows that, and whatever system they are creating will in fact alleviate as much of those concerns as it can.
Edited: Bludd was in the know. Thanks Bludd ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted to put your mind at ease. The concrete "Your Settlement will suck" if it is Chaotic Evil, has been explained a bit better....
CE + Low Rep will suck, not just CE by itself.
The reason why the original statement was made is because the Devs, particularly Ryan Dancy, can not imagine how CE can be played without having a low reputation.
Those of us who are CN or CE, will have to prove them wrong.
@ Bluddwolf I thank you for the information Bluddwolf. I have also been keeping abreast of the Developer's postings. There have been a great deal of interesting hints and details posted in the last couple of days. There is much to ponder and much to consider.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With Settlement Acheron out of play...
Is it really?
cause that would be sad, i actually liked the concept.I how you are just hiding in the shadow to hatch nefarious plans;)
Edit: with the one-step-alignment restriction out of the picture, wouldn´t it make sense to shift the core alignment to NE? That would still alow NE,CE,CN plus some on top.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is best to always err on the side of caution, and ask instead of assert.
I have said this before, but speaking for another org is actually a big taboo for me, and I can completely agree that it should not be done.
That said I had greatly enjoyed watching the proposal move towards an actuality and look forward to reading its future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did not post the contents of our PMs, but I have sent a new PM requesting that Anarhma and his friends reconsider or entertain another solution.
I certainly want to support any efforts to diversify the alignment / training support of the original 15 settlements.
I won't post a PM, just to prove my conversation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have evidence that clearly proves that plans for this settlement is still thriving and on the way. But i can't show anyone. So you'll have to take my word for it. But I have the evidence. No, seriously I do.
Why don't you PM Anathema, as I did, and ask him for yourself. August 4 was his last post here, seems pretty active to me.
Sort of like Shadow Haven, which remained inactive from Feb 6, until I inquired about its status. Pretty active there to I guess.
So please, produce evidence of your point. At least I have evidence if inactivity to use.
You won't PM him, you won't like the response you get, if any at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well clearly, as you have demonstrated, one does not have to produce the evidence to have is count one has to simply claim that it exists. Witch I did, so my point is sufficiently supported by that. As it is by the fact that they have not said that is does not exist anymore.
PM Anathema and report back here his response. Or better yet, we can wait and see if he posts here and reaffirms that this project is still in his plans.
I have been waiting for a similar response since August 13. As I stated, and can be seen for yourself, his last post supporting this idea was on August 3rd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't need to PM him. I already have the evidence right here.
Yes, unfortunately, we can all see the evidence right here.
1. No new posts to support this project by Anathema since Aug 3
2. His post expressing dismay over Ryan Dancey's comments about CE settlements
3. His direct question to Ryan, still not having a response.
The evidence is clear, for those with sense. The only ones who don't see it are those that don't want to admit that I was right. Others don't want to admit that Ryan Dancy's reckless comment at least altered these plans dramatically or has caused the people involved to look elsewhere.
I know for a fact that Anathema stated they no longer have plans for this settlement.
I once again offer support to Anathema to revisit this decision. I would not only support this settlement after EE, but if there is a new land rush, I would have my company cast it votes your way as well.
