RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If you're wielding a weapon in both hands, Power Attack is a given for the 3:1 bonus/penalty ratio. But what about if you're fighting one-handed? Say perhaps a duelist, a non-TWF sword-and-board guy, or just a concept that involves looking cool with a sword in one hand. At the 2:1 rate for a one-hander, is Power Attack still worthwhile? Should you seek other damage sources instead, or just not bother with damage much at all?
Does the answer change based on BAB progression or access to attack buffs?
Any insight on the topic of Power Attack for a one-hander is appreciated. Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This isn't an issue with Power Attack. It is with the whole damage system in its entirety.
Start without PA:
Single one-handed weapon: apply 100% STR mod to damage - base damage rule
Two one-handed weapons: apply 100% STR mod to one, and 50% STR mod to the other
Single two-handed weapon: apply 150% STR mod to damage
So, as shown, whenever you include your off-hand, either dual wielding or using a 2H weapon, you get an extra 50% more STR mod to damage. Always.
Power Attack is exactly the same:
Single one-handed weapon: apply 200% STR mod to damage
Single two-handed weapon: apply 300% STR mod to damage
That is still exactly 50% more damage.
So your issue is really not with Power Attack, but with all of the related damage rules. Which takes me to the question you really meant to ask: "Is using a single one-handed weapon still worthwhile?"
Arguably, no, it isn't, not if you want to be a damage machine - unless you can find the right combo of classes/archetypes and feats to really pull it off. Or, yes, it is, if you want to do some damage while using your other hand for non-damaging things, such as using a shield for AC, or holding other useful items like torches, wands, or whatever else you want.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@DM_Blake: No, my question isn't about whether using a one-handed weapon is worthwhile, and I don't have an issue with STR bonus to damage.
My question is about Power Attack itself and how the penalty to hit interacts with the bonus to damage in figuring overall damage output. If my reduced chance to hit would average out with my increased damage such that my overall expected damage hasn't really changed, then I can decide what to do about it (switch to two hands, not focus on damage in the first place, whatever). I'm not really concerned about it, I just need to know how the math works out so I can make an informed decision.
So does Power Attack increase DPR on a one-hander, or does it not? That really is the only question, I promise. :)
|
|
Err.... Wasn't Jiggy just asking if he should get PA for his sword and board user, and asking at what to hit to PA penalty ratio he should get it?
For my contribution, I had a paladin around level 11 with a +16/+11/+6 before power attack, and you could tally up the PA misses unless he was smiting. I would definitely require higher than that, near 20 at that level to use PA effectively.
EDIT: More to add. Most one handed style classes have something that adds to their damage to compensate for the lack damage of other alternatives. duelists get the precise strike think. Sword and Board fighter/rangers get shield bashing and become semi-decent battlefield control (especially when the ranger bull rushes and then his rhino AC charges) to boost their damage.
I don't know the DPR formula well enough to do a PA to no-PA comparison to find at what to hit does it become better.
@DM_Blake: No, my question isn't about whether using a one-handed weapon is worthwhile, and I don't have an issue with STR bonus to damage.
My question is about Power Attack itself and how the penalty to hit interacts with the bonus to damage in figuring overall damage output. If my reduced chance to hit would average out with my increased damage such that my overall expected damage hasn't really changed, then I can decide what to do about it (switch to two hands, not focus on damage in the first place, whatever). I'm not really concerned about it, I just need to know how the math works out so I can make an informed decision.
So does Power Attack increase DPR on a one-hander, or does it not? That really is the only question, I promise. :)
As I was saying, with PA, you do exactly 50% more damage with 2H weapons than you do with 1H weapons, exactly like you do 50% more STR damage with 2H weapons than you do with 1H weapons. It's the same exact damage model.
Asking if PA is worth it for 1H users is exactly like asking if increasing STR is worth it for 1H users.
Edit: rephrased because I expressed what I meant very poorly.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
There isn't a cut and dry answer to that. Power Attack's value is a function (literally, you can use it as an example in Algebra class) of how often you hit and how much damage you do: The more often you hit, the more value you get from trading attack for damage, the more damage you do, the less you get from that tradeoff.
One handed weapons, 3/4 BAB and dual wielders all have a smaller range where that tradeoff is in Power Attack is in their favor. But you don't really know until you do the math and find out where that sweet spot is that Power Attack increases your DPR.
Any rules of thumb, though? Like "If you plan on using 1HPA, have at least an XX in your to-hit stat and put pluses on your weapon instead of other enchantments" or "Turn off PA if you miss on a ##" or "If you have at least a +X to damage don't bother taking PA"?
Any kind of general guidance?
I will answer you're question in this way, a two-handed weapon user with power attack will generally cause more damage than someone using TWF with power attack (because of bad to-hit) and clealry more damage than a one-handed weapon user because of how power attack scales. So the question is really, do you want to focus on damage more than anything else?
|
So does Power Attack increase DPR on a one-hander, or does it not? That really is the only question, I promise. :)
Just to throw one more monkey wrench into the works: I don't know the answer to that question, but I think you should take the feat anyway, for just about any melee damage build.
The great thing about Power Attack is that it's optional. If you're having trouble hitting something, don't use it. If you really need the extra damage (to get past DR or something), then use it. Flexibility is a good thing.
But I have seen a lot of people who take Power Attack too early. At low levels, just hitting is an issue, and doing lots of extra damage isn't that important. So I don't think anyone should take PA until at least level 3. I've seen way too many people using PA at level 1, when they're missing a lot to begin with, and even their non-PA damage is often enough to drop foes in a single hit.
Personally, I took PA for my Battle Oracle at level 3, and he's a longsword and buckler type, who keeps his buckler hand free for casting. It's the only feat besides Extra Revelation that I'm planning to take for him, at least until double digit levels.
If you're wielding a weapon in both hands, Power Attack is a given for the 3:1 bonus/penalty ratio. But what about if you're fighting one-handed? Say perhaps a duelist, a non-TWF sword-and-board guy, or just a concept that involves looking cool with a sword in one hand. At the 2:1 rate for a one-hander, is Power Attack still worthwhile? Should you seek other damage sources instead, or just not bother with damage much at all?
Does the answer change based on BAB progression or access to attack buffs?
Any insight on the topic of Power Attack for a one-hander is appreciated. Thanks!
The answer does change. For example if you can count on bard inspire courage, cleric bless, and a flanking partner then power attack will be a better feat.
One problem is that it's hard to find additional damage sources from feats. You have Arcane Strike, Hammer the Gap, and Weapon Specialization. I can't think of any other feats that directly affect the damage dice that aren't power attack varients. Of course improving accuracy (such as weapon focus, Outflank Teamwork feat) will allow you to hit more on average.
If you are building a duelist and depending on how your DM interprets Precise Strike - TWF with Unarmed Strike and Snake Style could be one option.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I will answer you're question in this way, a two-handed weapon user with power attack will generally cause more damage than someone using TWF with power attack (because of bad to-hit) and clealry more damage than a one-handed weapon user because of how power attack scales. So the question is really, do you want to focus on damage more than anything else?
No, that really isn't the question. :)
The question is "If I'm already planning to fight with a one-handed weapon, under what conditions (if any) is Power Attack worth using?"
@Fromper - Good point about the versatility of being able to turn it off and on.
|
Power Attack and it's equivalents (Deadly Aim, Piranha Strike) are only worth it when you have a surplus to-hit, many attacks per round, and no other ways to add static damage for your character. If any of those three things are not true, then there are usually better things to get than power attack, especially on a one-handed weapon.
That said, if you can get into flanking position with a buddy, power attack becomes essentially sneak attack lite, as the flanking bonus negates most of the power attack penalty.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why are you already set on using only a 1-handed weapon? If you say it's so you have a hand free for somatic components, I'm gonna punch you in the face.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Why are you already set on using only a 1-handed weapon? If you say it's so you have a hand free for somatic components, I'm gonna punch you in the face.
Oh don't worry, it's not my gish addiction. ;)
My existing cleric will need a feat at 9th, and I was considering Power Attack; but even that isn't the reason for the question.It's actually because I often find myself inspired to think up a character when I see really striking art, and usually the pieces that strike me are one-handed weapon wielders rather than two-handers or TWFers. I enjoy characters that I can have fun visualizing, which typically seems to involve a single one-handed weapon.
Looking over Thomas's stats, I don't see how his damage is going to remain worthwhile no matter what you do. Even 1d8+9 with Power Attack is farily piddly for level 9. Even with a Divine Favor up, you're looking at attacking at +12 for 1d8+12 damage.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Looking over Thomas's stats, I don't see how his damage is going to remain worthwhile no matter what you do. Even 1d8+9 with Power Attack is farily piddly for level 9. Even with a Divine Favor up, you're looking at attacking at +12 for 1d8+12 damage.
For the attack bonus, also remember that I pretty much always have heroism running (either pre-cast, or in a pinch from my swift-action aura from my domain). With a +1 weapon (which is likely to be +2 at 9th, but we'll look at +1) that's +13 to hit before divine favor.
With divine favor (at 9th level), it'll be +16 for 1d8+8. So I guess with Power Attack it'd be +14 for 1d8+12.
But again, the question is not "Is +14/1d8+12 good?", but rather (in this example) "Is +14/1d8+12 better than +16/1d8+8?"
|
Here's my 2 cp worth on the matter:
Power Attack for someone who uses a one-handed weapon, and whether it's worthwhile even taking, really depends on the BAB of the character, and the bonus to-hit that character has.
As a general rule that I use for a non-two-handed melee weapon user: if there's room in a build that I'm working on to actually be able to take, then I take it, so long as there's not another feat that I want to grab that would be better.
I grabbed Power Attack for my PFS Ranger/Monk at 1st level (although he was a two-handed weapon user), although I didn't use it very often at low levels (he's almost 5, but haven't played him in a while).
As for my Monk character, I decided I wasn't going to take Power Attack, due to the penalty I was already taking for flurry, as well as not having room for it.
The nice part of Power Attack is, if you can afford to take it and be ok with not using it often, does indeed give you great flexibility of using it when you need it, as Fromper has stated.
For my characters that do have Power Attack, the first round or two may not have me use it, while I try to judge what kind of AC the enemy might have. If I decide that the penalty outweighs the risk of missing, I then use it. Or if it has a DR I can't get passed. Or if you need to smash through an adamantine animated door (happened in a home game once).
Some additional food for thought: 3/4 BAB characters at higher levels who buff themselves before and/or the first rounds of combat have a luxury of being able to use Power Attack more often, due to the fact that they will generally be taking less of a penalty for a damage bump than full BAB characters. All melee characters, when presented with extra attack buffs have a greater reason to use Power Attack, because the chances of missing are reduced.
I don't know if that answered your question, Jiggy. If not, I suspect that the only way to get a more definitive answer is to do a whole bunch of math (of which, I don't have the time to figure out at the moment :)
EDIT:
But again, the question is not "Is +14/1d8+12 good?", but rather (in this example) "Is +14/1d8+12 better than +16/1d8+8?"
Hmm...
At level 9 (I can't remember how subtiers work at the moment for PFS), I'm going to assume a CR 12 monster (I think APL + 3 monsters are the norm now for PFS?): average AC assumed to be 25. (Correct my math if I'm wrong):
Case 1 (Power Attack): +14/+9, 1d8+12: DPR = 0.5*16.5 + 0.25*16.5 = 12.375 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack): +16/+11, 1d8+8: DPR = 0.6*12.5 + 0.35*12.5 = 11.875 DPR
In this instance, Power Attack does improve your DPR, but not by a large amount.
From a DPR stand point, power attack is moderately useful. Depending on your existing damage, at +4 to +7 bab, its worth somewhere between 1 and 3 dpr.
If your chance to hit before power attack is 5%, or above 50%, you should use power attack.
Between about 35% and 50%, its a wash, below that, its a small loss of dpr.
So really, you can just turn it on and forget about it.
In general, I feel that the number of hits it takes to kill a foe is more important than DPR. If a monster has 100 HP, and your party does 20-30 damage per round, if you do less than about 10 damage, your attack is basically irrelevant. So, if power attack boosts your attacks into relevance territory, then it is useful.
I've made a simplistic calculator, comparing power attack DPR and the DPR gain from weapon focus and weapon spec: Google Doc.
|
|
Looking over Thomas's stats, I don't see how his damage is going to remain worthwhile no matter what you do. Even 1d8+9 with Power Attack is farily piddly for level 9. Even with a Divine Favor up, you're looking at attacking at +12 for 1d8+12 damage.For the attack bonus, also remember that I pretty much always have heroism running (either pre-cast, or in a pinch from my swift-action aura from my domain). With a +1 weapon (which is likely to be +2 at 9th, but we'll look at +1) that's +13 to hit before divine favor.
With divine favor (at 9th level), it'll be +16 for 1d8+8. So I guess with Power Attack it'd be +14 for 1d8+12.
But again, the question is not "Is +14/1d8+12 good?", but rather (in this example) "Is +14/1d8+12 better than +16/1d8+8?"
In reply to the question you are actually asking...
Assuming your foe's AC is not so bad that you only miss on a nat 1, or so good you only hit on a nat 20...
Assume that (for the purposes of mathematics), for each 20 attack rolls you make, each result will come up once (one 1, one 2, one 3...all the way to one 20).
This means that when you compare 20 (normal) attacks with 20 (Power Attack) attacks, in the example you gave, where:-
(normal) +16 (1d8+8)
(Power Attack) +14 (1d8+12)
...then the difference in the number of times your attack hits is two. These two extra (normal) hits do on average 25 damage (2d8+16). Every other attack is a hit or miss equally for both, but each PA hit does 4 more damage than each normal hit. You would have to hit 9 times with PA to make up for the loss of the damage of those two missed attacks (8 hits at +4 damage/hit=24, 9hits would give 28), so if the foe's AC is such that you hit him on a nat 12+, use PA. If you need a nat 13 or more, don't. Since your attack modifier with PA is +14, then if the foe's AC is 26 or less use PA, if it's 27 or more don't.
I'm not taking successful critical hits into account because I don't have that information.
The simple point is this: work out the average damage of the number of normal hits equal to the attack penalty for your PC'a Power Attack, then work out how many successful hits with PA would make up for that lost damage. Then you can work out the exact AC (or lower) where PA would help, and what target AC (or higher) would result in less damage delivered.
Does this help?
Is +14/1d8+12 better than +16/1d8+8?
OK, that's an easier question.
Average damage per hit without PA: 12.5Average damage per hit with PA: 16.5
Increase in damage per hit: 32%
So, when it +2 to hit better than +32% to damage per hit? When +2 to hit increases your hits-per-round by at least 33% (a third).
If you're only hitting on a 17 with PA, you have a 4/20 chance of hitting. Without PA, you hit on a 15. That's a 6/20 chance, which is one-third higher.
So against something with an AC of 31 or above, you're better off with +16/1d8+8. Against something with a lower AC, you're better off with 14/1d8+12.
Against AC 25, PA increases average damage per attack from 7.5 to 8.25 - an increase, but not a big one. (Against DR 5/- the difference would be a lot better.) Power attack will be useful against most opponents, but other feats may be more useful.
If using iterative attacks, PA is less useful - your secondary attack is weaker with PA than without it on anything with AC of 26 or more.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Alright, thanks to the people who are answering the real question now. :)
Going along with my cleric as an example, does the usefulness of Power Attack go up or down if I upgrade my sword to +2 (adding +1 each to attack and damage)? What about if I make it flaming instead (no bonus to hit, but +3.5 average damage per hit)? What if I buy an ioun stone that gives me +1 to hit?
Which direction does the usefulness of PA go when I start getting upgrades? My guess is that if I improve damage without to-hit (ala flaming), Power Attack gets worse, while adding to-hit without damage (via the ioun stone) would make it better; but I have no guesses on the +1/+1 upgrade. :/
The rule of thumb that I can see for you is that if your damage per hit is more than about 25, then you are better off taking weapon focus.
|
|
Well, assuming that all damage from a flaming weapon gets through against the same target (CR 12, AC 27; and if my math is off, feel free to point it out):
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Weapon): +15/+10, 1d8+13: 0.45*17.5 + 0.2*17.5 = 11.375 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Weapon): +17/+12, 1d8+9: 0.55*13.5 + 0.3*13.5 = 11.475 DPR
Case 3 (Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): +14/+9, 1d8+1d6+12: 0.4*20 + 0.15*20 = 11 DPR
Case 4 (No Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): +16/+11, 1d8+1d6+8: 0.5*16 + 0.25*16 = 12 DPR
Looks like your best DPR comes from Case 4.
EDIT: I haven't taken into account anything from crits. I'll have to revise my math to account for that.
|
|
Ok, using the following formula from the DPR Olympics thread:
hd(1+tc), where
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
We get the following (Assuming a Longsword, because IIRC that's what Thomas uses):
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Weapon): (0.45*17.5 + 0.2*17.5)*1.1 = 12.5125 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Weapon): (0.55*13.5 + 0.3*13.5)*1.1 = 12.6225 DPR
Case 3 (Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): (0.4*20 + 0.15*20)*1.1 = 12.1 DPR
Case 4 (No Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): (0.5*16 + 0.25*16)*1.1 = 13.2 DPR
EDIT: This is, of course, assuming that you don't fight fire-resistant creatures. A better enhancement might be Corrosive, which deals acid damage; you won't find too many resistant creatures to that. Alternatively, Vicious will give you 2d6, but deal 1d6 to yourself.
Hey Jiggy,
I have an 8th level Fighter who uses flail and shield (buckler technically). Mostly focus on Disarm, Trip, and Feint, but do 1d8+8 before bonuses. I haven't taken Power Attack yet, though I'm often itching to use it. I think being single-handed defers the obvious benefit of taking Power Attack, but around the mid-levels it gets to be good to have (more DR 10 + combat bonuses making to-hit go up a little faster than AC). Weapon Spec was an obvious first choice for me, but isn't an option for your cleric.
I think 9th level would be an appropriate time to take the feat for you. You've got the slots for divine power, and can cast righteous might (though that's only +1 to hit). Also 11th level is a much more valuable feat (Improved Critical, Quicken Spell, etc.).
As Arassuil points out, adding enhancement bonus adds to the utility of power attack, but since you can cast greater magic weapon that's different choice to make.
[b]Arassuil/b]: You're critting the fire damage.
The rule of thumb that I can see for you is that if your damage per hit is more than about 25, then you are better off taking weapon focus.Also simple to model in a spreadsheet, and I suspect with roughly the same answer. Extremely high and low AC's, PA is better then Weapon Focus, there may be a few ACs in the middle where WF is superior.
With my spreadsheet and 25 base damage, WF is better than PA if your chance to hit is 65% or worse. I imagine this is where a 3/4 bab class would sit.
|
|
Oops, you're right. Thanks for the clarification.
DPS calculation: hd(1+tc)
Alternative DPS calculation: h(d+s)+tchd
Where
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Weapon): 0.45*17.5*1.1 + 0.2*17.5*1.1 = 12.5125 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Weapon): 0.55*13.5*1.1 + 0.3*13.5*1.1 = 12.6225 DPR
Case 3 (Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): 0.4(16.5+3.5)+0.1*1*0.4*16.5 + 0.15(16.5+3.5)+0.1*1*0.15*16.5 = 11.9075 DPR
Case 4 (No Power Attack, +1 Flaming Weapon): 0.5(12.5+3.5)+0.1*1*0.5*12.5 + 0.25(12.5+3.5)+0.1*1*0.25*12.5 = 12.9375 DPR
Hopefully I did my math right this time...
EDIT: Looks like the observation about Power Attack is true: use it only against very high AC monsters or very low AC monsters. Otherwise, it's not worth using it.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Okay, now (for my education) let's move away from the (very helpful!) cleric/medium-BAB example.
Suppose I wanted to build a new PC, and the concept was a martial (aka full-BAB) character with a one-handed weapon and a free hand.
If I start with 18 STR, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
If I start with 18 DEX and Weapon Finesse, but only 13 STR, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
If I start with 18 DEX and 13 STR and get an agile weapon, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
I guess I'm mainly trying to see the difference it makes to be full-BAB versus 3/4 BAB, and the difference to normally have just my STR mod to damage versus having STR+divine favor.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I start with 18 STR, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
Well, to compare Apples to Apples, I'll try a level 9 Fighter with a rapier then
- 18 STR (20 STR with Belt of Strength +2)- +2 Rapier
- Gloves of Dueling
- Weapon Focus (Rapier)
- Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
- Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 5 (STR) + 2 (WF/GWF) + 2 (Enhancement) = +22/+17
Damage Bonus: +5 (STR) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 (WS) + 2 (Enhancement) = 1d6+13
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Rapier, wielded one-handed): +19/+14, 1d6+19 = 0.65*22.5*1.15 + 0.4*22.5*1.15 = 27.16875 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Rapier wielded one-handed): +22/+17, 1d6+13 = 0.8*16.5*1.15 + 0.55*16.5*1.15 = 25.61625 DPR
If I start with 18 DEX and Weapon Finesse, but only 13 STR, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
- 18 DEX (20 DEX with Belt of Dex +2), 13 STR
- +2 Rapier- Gloves of Dueling
- Weapon Focus (Rapier)
- Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
- Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 5 (DEX) + 2 (WF/GWF) + 2 (Enhancement) = +22/+17
Damage Bonus: +1 (STR) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 (WS) + 2 (Enhancement) = 1d6+9
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Rapier, wielded one-handed): +19/+14, 1d6+15 = 0.65*18.5*1.15 + 0.4*18.5*1.15 = 22.33875 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Rapier wielded one-handed): +22/+17, 1d6+9 = 0.8*12.5*1.15 + 0.55*12.5*1.15 = 19.40625 DPR
If I start with 18 DEX and 13 STR and get an agile weapon, does Power Attack typically increase my DPR?
- 18 DEX (20 DEX with Belt of Dex +2), 13 STR
- +1 Agile Rapier- Gloves of Dueling
- Weapon Focus (Rapier)
- Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
- Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 5 (DEX) + 2 (WF/GWF) + 1 (Enhancement) = +21/+16
Damage Bonus: +5 (DEX) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 (WS) + 1 (Enhancement) = 1d6+12
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +1 Agile Rapier, wielded one-handed): +18/+13, 1d6+18 = 0.6*21.5*1.15 + 0.35*21.5*1.15 = 23.48875 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +1 Agile Rapier wielded one-handed): +21/+16, 1d6+12 = 0.75*15.5*1.15 + 0.5*15.5*1.15 = 22.28125 DPR
Again, hopefully I did my math right :D
Also, if your off-hand is free, you can always 2-hand the one-handed weapon when you need a little more omph.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@Arassuil: Wow, looks like Power Attack makes remarkably little difference. Does that fact change if we drop class-specific stuff (Weapon Spec, Weapon Training/Gloves) and don't replace it with other class-specific stuff (favored enemy, rage, etc), what do we get?
That is, if we look only at what's common to all the full-BAB builds (BAB, ability scores, +1 weapon/+1 agile weapon) and leave out all class-specific stuff, does it affect the numbers in any meaningful way?
|
|
@Entilzha: Wow, looks like Power Attack makes remarkably little difference. Does that fact change if we drop class-specific stuff (Weapon Spec, Weapon Training/Gloves) and don't replace it with other class-specific stuff (favored enemy, rage, etc), what do we get?
That is, if we look only at what's common to all the full-BAB builds (BAB, ability scores, +1 weapon/+1 agile weapon) and leave out all class-specific stuff, does it affect the numbers in any meaningful way?
Hmm, interesting idea!
- 18 STR (20 STR with Belt of Strength +2)
- +2 Rapier
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 2 (Enhancement) = +16/+11
Damage Bonus: +5 (STR) + 2 (Enhancement) = 1d6+7
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Rapier, wielded one-handed): +13/+8, 1d6+13 = 0.35*16.5*1.15 + 0.1*16.5*1.15 = 8.53875 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Rapier wielded one-handed): +16/+11, 1d6+7 = 0.5*10.5*1.15 + 0.25*10.5*1.15 = 9.05625 DPR
- 18 DEX (20 DEX with Belt of Dex +2), 13 STR
- +2 Rapier
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 5 (DEX) + 2 (Enhancement) = +16/+11
Damage Bonus: +1 (STR) + 2 (Enhancement) = 1d6+3
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +2 Rapier, wielded one-handed): +13/+8, 1d6+9 = 0.35*12.5*1.15 + 0.1*12.5*1.15 = 5.03125 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +2 Rapier wielded one-handed): +16/+11, 1d6+3 = 0.5*6.5*1.15 + 0.25*6.5*1.15 = 5.60625 DPR
- 18 DEX (20 DEX with Belt of Dex +2), 13 STR
- +1 Agile Rapier
Attack Bonus: +9 (BAB) + 5 (DEX) + 1 (Enhancement) = +15/+10
Damage Bonus: +5 (DEX) + 1 (Enhancement) = 1d6+6
CR 12 Monster; AC 27
Case 1 (Power Attack, +1 Agile Rapier, wielded one-handed): +12/+7, 1d6+12 = 0.3*15.5*1.15 + 0.05*15.5*1.15 = 6.23875 DPR
Case 2 (No Power Attack, +1 Agile Rapier wielded one-handed): +15/+10, 1d6+6 = 0.45*9.5*1.15 + 0.05*9.5*1.15 = 5.4625 DPR
Of course, the math may need to be adjusted, due to a 15% crit range means nothing in these calculations when you need a natural 20 to hit with some of the attacks; I just used the formula's as-is.
power attack is literally one of the biggest sources of static damage. rivaled by Pirahna Strike and Deadly Aim.
the only thing that truly comes close, is adding a second really high attribute to damage in addition to strength with really generous attribute allocation. even if it is say, adding strength a second time.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Hrm. Looks like any way you slice it, 1HPA barely affects your DPR at all, in either direction.
I started this thread partly because I'd once heard a rule of thumb that 1 point of attack is roughly equivalent to about 2 points of damage as far as DPR is concerned. Looking at the miniscule change in DPR between having or not having a -1 to hit for +2 damage (or a multiple thereof), seems like that rule of thumb was actually surprisingly accurate.
I guess I probably shouldn't blow a feat on Power Attack unless I either plan to use a two-hander or already just happen to have lots of attack-only bonuses.
Thanks, all!
take power attack anyway. it is a prerequisite for a lot of things. it also helps against foes with DR.
If you've got a feat to spare then I still think it's useful, even if the DPR average is only going to go up by 1 or 2.
For fights against things with low AC you can leave it on all the time. Extra damage that scales with your BAB is pretty useful when you can do it every single round.
For fights against things that are harder to hit then you always have the option of not using it, or you can take the Furious Focus feat to get rid of the penalty.
If you have something else that you want to use your feat for then by all means go for it. It's nice to have other strings to your bow, even in a melee character. However, extra damage is always a good option for characters who want to hit things with sticks.
|
|
If you've got a feat to spare then I still think it's useful, even if the DPR average is only going to go up by 1 or 2.
For fights against things with low AC you can leave it on all the time. Extra damage that scales with your BAB is pretty useful when you can do it every single round.
That's what I was going to say. It may make no difference against high AC stuff that's hard to hit, but it'll help finish off the stuff that's easy to hit faster. So the mook fights will be easier. In a boss fight, if he has a couple of mook assistants, then you'll be able to knock the mooks down faster so your group can focus on the big boss. And if you have trouble hitting the big boss, you just turn it off.
For fights against things that are harder to hit then you always have the option of not using it, or you can take the Furious Focus feat to get rid of the penalty.
If you have something else that you want to use your feat for then by all means go for it. It's nice to have other strings to your bow, even in a melee character. However, extra damage is always a good option for characters who want to hit things with sticks.
Furious Focus only works with two handed weapons.