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You're presuming a great deal, yourself. Why don't we both step away from this thread for a while, since I'm pretty sure we're not helping?Because if the GM said this no one one here would say that was mean...the GM was in a no win situation and eventually just cancelled the game rather than deal with the hassle.
The Dude tried to invite himself into a game and wouldn't take no for an answer.
The GM said no, and spent the time giving him reasons why he didn't want him, and now the GM is the bad guy?
I actually think I am helping.
I think the OP should apologize to his friends for trying to insert himself where he wasn't welcome and making them lose a campaign. Because clearly his friends are annoyed with him.
And I think the positive reinforcement for his negative behavior isn't going to help him get into groups or make more friends in the future.
The OP came here seeking advice, this is my advice. I think it is much better than "You are awesome, keep doing it!"
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THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. The game was still in planning stages and a few months away. He did NOT just pop in and "expect" to have a seat.I throw a party and you aren't invited. You show up and I ask you to leave. You demand to know why and I give you a list of reasons why I don't want you at the party. You throw such a fit I cancel the party.
He asked. The GM said no. He wouldn't take no for an answer.
Yes, I think it is his fault.
And he wasn't welcome.
Period. Full stop.
If I hear about a game you are running and show up asking to play, because I heard about it, I am not entitled to be allowed to play.
Period. Full stop.
GM said no. Took time to give him reasons why. It escalated to the point the GM didn't even want to run a game at all, which pissed off his friends who wanted to run a game. And even then, he didn't let it go, but decided to log on to the messageboard for the game and complain about it.
Why would I not want to game with someone like that...
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@Drachasor - Let us use your analogy, because it works great.
At the point the host said "There is no more room" in your play the other person is being a jerk.
Read exactly what you wrote above and role play it out in your mind with you in the role of the person who doesn't want the OP to come. Switch the "Me" and "You"
The person is trying to push in where they clearly aren't welcome and won't take no for an answer.
Ciretose, this is one time I have to disagree with you. He may not have been invited by the DM, but he was invited by 2 of the players and they are all supposedly friends/co-workers. However, the solution is still the same to find another game. If you were in my area I would invite you to our game as we accept newbies here. Find a group that is more welcome to new players and I would find a ftf game if possible.
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I'm fairly new to this, (I'm running my very first campaign right now) but I can't imagine pitching a fit and cancelling an entire campaign because someone asked to join. I also can't imagine excluding a friend from playing a game, unless there is some subtext.
Honestly ask yourself: Why don't these guys, including the DM want me around? Are you obnoxious? Are you annoying? You don't seem that way from your post, but this is the internet after all...
If I were in your shoes I would approach the "friend" I am closest with and ask for point blank honesty if these guys really dislike me and why.
Think about addressing those answers, improve your social skills, then move on, learn the game on your own, and find a new group.
Either way, even if you are lacking social skills, this DM is a jerk. Adding a 4th player is nothing, indeed all the CRs are built around a 4 player party. And telling someone they can't have two arcane casters in a group? WTF? Also, you aren't jumping in mid-game, he is still "designing" the campaign. He sounds super railroady and controlling.
Look elsewhere and / or start DMing your own game.
Let us say I'm having a party. I invite people to the party I want to come to my party.
At some point some guy I don't want to come to the party finds out about the party, and won't take a hint that I don't want him to come. So I cancel the party rather than have to go through the effort of throwing a party that I won't enjoy if "that guy" shows up.
That is what happened here.
Sure.
The solution, however, remains unchanged.
The OP shouldn't play with a group that doesn't want him, regardless of whether they're jerks or he is.
Since this guy came to the forums asking our help, I give him the benefit of the doubt.
There might be a slightly less douchey reason for the DM not wanting the Original Poster in the group. Maybe he really wants some time with his 3 friends, maybe he has a preference for small groups, maybe he has an anxiety disorder that makes it hard to socialize with new people. Regardless if the dm is that resistent, even if your friends 'stand up' for you it isnt going to be a positive experience for you. Tabletop games are pretty much all dictated by the dm. If the dm doesnt want you there you arent going to have fun. It doesnt matter WHY he doesnt want you there, only that he does.
That means you need to find a different game. First step would be to check your local game stores and maybe pathfinder society play in your area. You can also post in the gamer connection section of these forums and see if anyone in your area wants a new player.
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I wouldn't cancel it. I would tell the guy I didn't want him in the game and the game was closed, and then go on without him.
I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually what happened, but no one is telling him the game is going on without him because it is easier than having to argue with him...
What exactly should the GM do when someone he doesn't want to run for shows up wanting to be in the game and not taking no for an answer?
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I always hated the whole "GM is God" line of thinking. If some of the players would like to add a player to the roster who is a mutual friend of half of the group (2 people out of 3 players and a GM), then it should be an open subject FOR THE GROUP. The GM does not have absolute control over all fun to be had.
And my thoughts on a GM that is a douchebag about pulling members into the hobby is that he shouldn't be GMing. Expand the game by one player. You are already playing down by one player from the normal group so whats the big deal?
My wish is that the OP finds a group, has a blast and learns fast, starts GMing himself and steals his friends from the A-hole GM leaving him sans game.
Good Luck OP and even if my table was full (which we pretty much are), I would always try to squeeze in one more, especially to spread the hobby to a new player.
I always hated the whole "GM is God" line of thinking. If some of the players would like to add a player to the roster who is a mutual friend of half of the group (2 people out of 3 players and a GM), then it should be an open subject FOR THE GROUP. The GM does not have absolute control over all fun to be had.
And my thoughts on a GM that is a douchebag about pulling members into the hobby is that he shouldn't be GMing. Expand the game by one player. You are already playing down by one player from the normal group so whats the big deal?
My wish is that the OP finds a group, has a blast and learns fast, starts GMing himself and steals his friends from the A-hole GM leaving him sans game.
Good Luck OP and even if my table was full (which we pretty much are), I would always try to squeeze in one more, especially to spread the hobby to a new player.
I would certainly agree with you. I dont like the GM is god mentality, and I do my best to work with my players when I dm an with my dm when I play to create an experience we will all enjoy. That said, if the GM doesnt want you there, its just going to be a grappy situation. No matter the GM's reasons he basically threw a fit when the player wanted to join. Even if you could convince him to let you in, its going to be aweful. The guy who controls 95% of what happens in the game has a bone to pick with you. Given this person doesnt seem to me to rate very high on the maturity scale, its not going to well.
My experience: there have been people that I am friends with that I have lied to or have not mentioned that there is a game on because, they were either terrible players or they made other people uncomfortable.
I have played with people who are painfully shy and find new people at the table very difficult to deal with to the point where they won't show for a game because new people make them feel exposed and vulnerable. I can see a GM who is that shy freaking out when friends invite somebody new without consulting them.
So OP that group may not be for you... Best to create your own. But I am not going to condemn the group because there could be a 1000 reasons behind what happened.
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Since this thread is in the Beginner Box forum, I would love to see us all reign in the hostility a bit.
If you're a beginner and you're reading this thread, I promise you, this is NOT indicative of the forums or the game's player population at large.
In fact, I've flagged the thread to be moved. Please be a good community member until someone puts this in Advice where it belongs.
Ciretose,
I am usually on your side of the argument in these things, but it also feels that you are tilting a little strongly at Windmills here.
The end of the line is that he needs to find another group of people to play with and advise on how to go about that is the logical conclusion regardless of the series of events and motivations of those involved. Chances are Jerk behavior occurred, who caused it is really a moot point to the issue at hand.
I have also flagged.
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OP may be a great guy, but he clearly wasn't welcome so regardless he was wrong to force himself in where wasn't welcome.
The OP said, and I quote "I kept asking him to reconsider until he gave up and said he was going to cancel the whole campaign."
That was way over the line. Particularly when you are dealing with co-workers.
It isn't about the OP personally, it is about the OPs actions.
No means no.
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Agree, it seems Ciretose is either projecting (identifying with the DM) or on some sort of quest.
Yes, OP, you might find out what's really going on here because you can probably use that information in the rest of your life. For example I once lived in a bug infested hell hole of a rental condo. I thought I was leaving all that behind me when I went to work, but no one had the heart to tell me the truth - it was making me stink. I couldn't smell it because I lived in it every day. After I learned the truth it was pretty easy to compensate, and I really wish someone had told me sooner.
Maybe you stink, or maybe its something else, or maybe (most likely) that DM had some other reason for not wanting you there.
Whatever you do, be subtle and patient.
I think the OP should apologize to his friends for trying to insert himself where he wasn't welcome and making them lose a campaign. Because clearly his friends are annoyed with him.
And I think the positive reinforcement for his negative behavior isn't going to help him get into groups or make more friends in the future.
The OP came here seeking advice, this is my advice. I think it is much better than "You are awesome, keep doing it!"
And I think you're not fully reading what the poor guy said. From his original post:
I told him I'd back off if he reinstated the campaign for their benefit, and he agreed.
In addition, I'd like to add that his other friends were being somewhat disingenuous with the OP, as well. You don't invite a friend join into a game and then get mad at the friend when he decides he'd like to join via your invitation. That's not really a friendly thing to do.
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Agree, it seems Ciretose is either projecting (identifying with the DM) or on some sort of quest.
Yes, OP, you might find out what's really going on here because you can probably use that information in the rest of your life. For example I once lived in a bug infested hell hole of a rental condo. I thought I was leaving all that behind me when I went to work, but no one had the heart to tell me the truth - it was making me stink. I couldn't smell it because I lived in it every day. After I learned the truth it was pretty easy to compensate, and I really wish someone had told me sooner.
Maybe you stink, or maybe its something else, or maybe (most likely) that DM had some other reason for not wanting you there.
Whatever you do, be subtle and patient.
You are saying basically the same thing I am saying...
Maybe doing things like "I kept asking him to reconsider until he gave up and said he was going to cancel the whole campaign." is something that makes people not want to play with you.
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What I dont get is how these "friends" would pull something like that, perhaps my definition of friend is different.
Was there an incident that caused this to happen?
Either way find a new group of folks to game with, I found PFS groups to be patient with beginners and you should meet some people to game with at a home game.
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@Sub-creator - That is basically like saying "If I stop stalking you..."
The OP said these were co-workers. Imagine you are at work and you talk to people you like at work and decide to have a campaign with them.
Then some guy you work with that you don't like (for whatever reason, valid or not) says he wants to play. You don't like him, you don't want to run a game for him. It would not be fun for you to have him in the game, and the only reason to game is to have fun.
You had this thing you were looking forward to and now this guy is ruining it.
So you tell him he is too late. He doesn't take the hint.
You tell him you designed it for 3 players. He doesn't take the hint.
You tell him what he wants to play isn't available. He doesn't take the hint.
Over and over he doesn't take the hint.
Finally you say to hell with it, running the game isn't worth it because this guy kept asking him to reconsider over and over and so you give up, you cancel the game.
The other people who want to play (who actually know the OP I might add...) blame the OP.
Why?
Because before the OP "kept asking him to reconsider" there was a game and now there is no game.
The OP doesn't get a cookie for agreeing to stop harrassing the GM.
That is what he should have done from the beginning.
second verse same as the first
pitch black dart thread
here are some darts
you are in a pitch black room
there is possibly a dart board in here
hit the bullseye
@Sub-creator - That is basically like saying "If I stop stalking you..."
The OP said these were co-workers. Imagine you are at work and you talk to people you like at work and decide to have a campaign with them.
Then some guy you work with that you don't like (for whatever reason, valid or not) says he wants to play. You don't like him, you don't want to run a game for him. It would not be fun for you to have him in the game, and the only reason to game is to have fun.
well-known list snipped
Finally you say to hell with it, running the game isn't worth it because this guy kept asking him to reconsider over and over and so you give up, you cancel the game.
The other people who want to play (who actually know the OP I might add...) blame the OP.
Why?
Because before the OP "kept asking him to reconsider" there was a game and now there is no game.
The OP doesn't get a cookie for agreeing to stop harrassing the GM.
That is what he should have done from the beginning.
You're looking at it from a perspective that the guy running the game simply doesn't like the OP and didn't want him around. Okay. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's really not what's important here.
Where were his friends at this time? What should they have been doing? Certainly not getting angry at someone who simply wants to have fun with them by their own invitation. That's disingenuous of his friends . . . if they didn't want him there, they shouldn't have asked him to play. Indeed, they wouldn't have run into this whole scenario with a GM not wanting him and willing to cancel an entire game over him if they'd simply not asked him to join.
However, they did. And after they did, and refused to explain their position to the GM in wanting him to play (backing up their request), they grew angry with the OP for wanting to join in the fun with his friends.
Again, I don't agree with the GM's choices here, but if there was a personal conflict (even a one-sided one), I can understand a GM not wanting that conflict present. The OP's friends, however, are the most at fault here, at least from what I can see. They weren't acting like friends at all. They grew angry at him for doing what they asked him to do, and even after he rectified their situation by backing off so their game could go on, they still chose not to act like friends and continued being angry with him.
You say the OP handled it poorly. I say his friends handled it even more poorly. They could have communicated with the GM about their request; they could have communicated with the OP about their mistake, and thus nipped the problem in the bud. They could have also offered--as friends--to play another side game with the OP, helping him to learn the ins-and-outs of tabletop gaming better and giving them all an opportunity to have fun together in an arena they were all obviously interested in . . . unless they weren't truly interested in him being their in the first place. Which, being that this whole situation came about because they requested that he try to get into the game, means they were the ones being disingenuous from the start.
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@Sub-Creator - But here is the thing. We know this is the OP's version of events. And so we can assume the OP is presenting himself in the light most favorable to him.
And even looking at it that way, he kept asking until the GM finally gave up and cancelled the whole game.
Then the people who know him best, the people who are his friends rather than random people on the internet reading only his version of events, blamed him.
Not the GM. Him.
I approach posts on the internet with a salt lick. Everyone wants to be the hero of their narrative.
So when I read these posts I try and skip the fluff and get down to the brass tacks of what is not in dispute.
What is not in dispute is that a few people, some of which were his co-workers, decided when he was not around to run a game.
At some point the game was brought to his attention, he approached the person who was running the game, and the person who was running the game made it clear he didn't want the OP to be in the game. The OP tried unsuccessfully to convince the GM to let him in, and this cause the GM to "give up" and cancel the game.
The people who the OP considered friends (and who actually know the OP, the DM, and all of the circumstances) blame the OP for the game being cancelled and are still upset with him.
None of these facts are in dispute. The fact that some childhood trauma about not playing with his father, etc...is beside the point.
And again, all of this is from the OP's point of view, painting him in the best light possible.
If the OP's own friends think it was his fault, when they actually know the OP and circumstances...
You're presuming a great deal, yourself. Why don't we both step away from this thread for a while, since I'm pretty sure we're not helping?Because if the GM said this no one one here would say that was mean...the GM was in a no win situation and eventually just cancelled the game rather than deal with the hassle.
The Dude tried to invite himself into a game and wouldn't take no for an answer.
The GM said no, and spent the time giving him reasons why he didn't want him, and now the GM is the bad guy?
I actually think I am helping.
I think the OP should apologize to his friends for trying to insert himself where he wasn't welcome and making them lose a campaign. Because clearly his friends are annoyed with him.
And I think the positive reinforcement for his negative behavior isn't going to help him get into groups or make more friends in the future.
The OP came here seeking advice, this is my advice. I think it is much better than "You are awesome, keep doing it!"
So, how long ago is it that you had a similar situation happen to you as the GM? Because the way you are argueing against what I perceive, at least for myself, to be much better arguments than your own, it implies a very traumatic experience in your past. Show me on the doll where the bad player touched you.
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I have never had it happen to me even once.
I have been kept out of groups when I first started out until I learned to ask what the group wanted from me rather than telling the group what I wanted from them.
I did what was asked until I proved myself. Then I was given more leeway to try more things until I eventually, over years, earned enough cred to be able to say "I want to run a game" and have good players be interested in letting me do it.
All of the GMs I have played with were more or less invite only since I've gotten a positive enough reputation to not have to be part of the meat grinder of begging for a chance.
I think it is an absolute disservice to tell people they can keep doing what they are doing when they aren't getting the outcomes they want from the actions they are taking.
The OP clearly wants to play. The way he is acting toward the GM and his friends isn't going to get him to that goal.
So why encourage that behavior?
If the OP wants to be in the game, he should apologize to his friends and the GM for being so pushy and ask to be thought of if they run something else some time. If he never wants to play, he should keep doing what he is doing
Edit: And to be clear, I am lucky/skilled enough to be able to be an invite only level GM at this point. We have a big group, not everyone gets into every game. We generally cap at 6 player and prefer 4 person groups.
If I were starting out and/or couldn't get enough players, I might decide to take on a player who I think might be less fun at times or who might cause minor annoyances for the group.
But I'm not, so I don't.
And so if as a GM you want players, you have to be the kind of person who runs a game people want to play.
If as a player to want to get into good games, you have to be the kind of person the GM wants to run for.
Actually, people already told the OP that he should try getting into an online game and that he shouldn't bother with the group which didn't want him. And the OP agreed.
So maybe you should calm down a bit. You are acting as if he were up in the GM's grill right now. Bring it down a bit.
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I am calm. Read my posts, not the responses to my posts. A lot of people seem to be getting angry about what I am posting, but if you actually read what I'm saying, there isn't anything hyperbolic to them.
Seriously, read what I wrote and tell me where I'm am being angry.
I kind of wonder how many people actually read the whole OP...
That GM is a total D^C%
FYI, Noob players are the best players. One of the things that make noob players so much fun is that they can't identify the creatures and every threat is treated with sincerity and wonder.
Find another group, post haste!
-MD
RPGs the elite social club
Just to make it clear: I am not defending the OP, nor making any assumptions on how things went down or how is right or wrong in the situation. I have already stated to the OP that regardless of the reasons for what happened, he is best advised to look elsewhere for a game.
That said, seriously? Are you joining a fraternity or playing rpgs with people who I presume are your friends. Jesus man that is some special kinds of elitism. I mean yea, the dm has the right to be selective about who plays in his game, but you act as it its ok to treat those people as the diseased huddles masses crowding at the gates to paradise.
Any 'good' player in a group where there is apparently a dire lack of games, so that some people in the 'group' are part of a 'meat grinder' that must beg for a game, whom does not openly encourage new GMs (be they experience players taking a crack at gming for the first time or relatively new players) and support them isnt a good player or a good friend. If they instead demand that the person 'earn enough cred' for them to deem him worthy of dming for them, they are elitest jerks.
All I can say is thank God most gamers arent like you and your 'friends'. I cant coceive of 'begging for a chance' to play a GAME with my friends. And the biggest draw about the community at large for me has always been the inclusiveness I've felt from the gamers I've met and made friends with.
Wow, that escalated quickly.
Here is my take.
There is more to this story than we are getting from the OP.
My personal take is similar to Ciretose. The advice I would give the OP is "take a good long hard look at your relationships with these people and ask yourself the question of why the GM would be so adamant about you not playing. Then do your level best to answer it honestly."
I suspect if the GM had posted here about how a "problem player" had "demanded to play" in his game, the vast majority of responses by these same people on this thread would be "What a jerk! You did the right thing!"
I say again, there is almost certainly more to this story that we are not getting.
I think my main problem here is that, after people already gave good advice to the OP and the situation is resolved, there is no need to now put up a fuss about "OMG, it's the OP who really is wrong!" anymore. And, no, ciretose, I think you are acting angry. Others also have noted that you are "sounding" very emotional in this conversation.
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Nobody's making a folk hero out of him.I built a statue of him in the center of town and declared today Kajiiata-Day.
He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
He stood up to the GM and he gave him what forOur love for him now ain't hard to explain...
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...the hero of the forums, the man they call Kajiiataaaaaa
wait that does not rhyme at all
also this is a serious thread person thread
