how to handle an aggressive 'lawful stupid' paladin?


Advice

51 to 100 of 141 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Buri wrote:
Just take them through Cheliax for a moment. That should be fun to watch.

I was playing an Aasimar Paladin in my groups run through Council of Thieves. That was an interesting bit of fun. Unfortunately, we stopped playing that campaign and my little Paladin waits for the day that we start it back up, if we start it back up.

Sovereign Court

Redchigh wrote:
Is smiting every evil you see really lawful good?

Maybe. Is it part of his own code to slay any evil he encounters?

Redchigh wrote:
If so, would running to save your life be justification for loss of powers for a day if your deity expects you to always fight, even if it does mean being a martyr?

No, retreating from a more powerful adversary is very pragmatic. It makes no sense to throw your life away from an obviously more powerful opponent. Regroup, plan, gather allies and resources, then renew the attack.

Redchigh wrote:
What conditions have come up where a paladin lost powers in your games?

I haven't had any paladins in my games fall, but the one time I did force an alignment shift was when a Chaotic Good character tortured a Kender.

Redchigh wrote:
What conditions have come up where you disagreed with your DM on whether the paladin should have?

I think you need to sit down with this player and discuss what your expectations of the class are and explain to him how your world works before he joins. Maybe you just need to ban the class outright. In a world where evil aberrations run the streets, all the paladins would have been hunted to extinction long ago.

Also, get his input on how he expects to play his class on what his code will be. To me, it seems like you're already pretty set on making this guy fall before you've even met him.

Silver Crusade

All the Cheliax talk has me wanting to see a Paladin with max ranks in Profession(Lawyer) who sits down to use the legal system to free Cheliax from its poor-thought-out contract. Like Atticus Finch with a Holy Avenger.

I've never had a paladin fall, but thats also because 1.) I don't try to make them and 2.) The players tend to understand that being a paladin isn't being Judge Death (Dredd wasn't an idiot).

The retreat thing comes up frequently, the issue is that people want video game like triggers for paladin issues, and it doesn't work that way. Fleeing from an enemy because the fight earns no benefit except getting your ass kicked is not a fall-worthy event. Fleeing from an enemy just because you're going to die while defending someone else? Thats fall-worthy.

Good wants you to save your ass.

Good doesn't want you to let evil happen just to save your ass.

Saving someone else's ass should matter more to you as a paladin.

Now mind, there are issues of moral ass saving and physical ass saving. Sometimes you have to die in order to save the ass of someone's soul.

Those who say a paladin can never try to save his ass, even when it doesn't endanger the asses of the innocent, are asses themselves (and may or may not need a paladin to save their ass morally or physically).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
I haven't had any paladins in my games fall, but the one time I did force an alignment shift was when a Chaotic Good character tortured a Kender.

Right. Torturing a Kender is Wrong.

Killing them on sight, OTOH, is very very Lawful, and should be applauded by all right minded peoples.

Killing a Player who plays a Kender should be Justifiable homicide.


Damn Kender infestation.

Now-a-days I just cut them open and use them as slippers during the winter. Filthy thieving little pickpockets.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Are you playing in Golarion? Is the Paladin worshipping a Golarion deity? If so, make sure they abide by their deity's Paladin code as described in Faiths of Purity and Faiths of Balance.

Be sure and recognize the limitations of "Detect Evil" and that every second rate moneylender will NOT detect as Evil under those rules. Likewise be sure and note that sufficiently high level bad guys will cause your Paladin to be stunned if he tries Detecting on them.

Without starting a fight on the subject, you will need to determine how the Paladin's "Detect Evil" works. Is it a casual glance across a room, or does it take concentration and become detectable by the would be detectees.

Will a good PC carrying a slightly "evil" trinket detect as Evil? What are the ramifications when the Paladin strikes him down?

How does the local law take to having a Paladin striking down citizens in the street?


Claxon wrote:

Why is everybody convinced that the paladin must play a redeemer?

Personally I hate redeemer Paladins. To me they just don't fit the concept of Paladin, but in the world of Golarion they are valid, just as valid as the holy warrior who's desire to eradicate evil from the world is valid too. This doesn't mean that you're only option with evil is smiting everything the moment it detects as evil, but mostly because you don't have enough smites per day to do that. I prefer a paladin the same way I prefer most of my martial characters, stab first ask questions later. Would you expect the fighter to do something besides stab? The barbarian? Why should the paladin not be allowed to stab evil?

No, I would not expect a fighter or barbarian to stab things foolishly or indiscriminately.

Scarab Sages

Rynjin wrote:
Quote:
Is smiting every evil you see really lawful good?
No. It isn't. It is, as you said, Lawful Stupid.

It is Chaotic Stupid.

Killing a law abiding citizen, regardless of the victims moral convictions, is murder.


Can we avoid talking about "innocent citizens"? Seriously?

We've said this probably 10 times. Below level 5 only anti-palaidins and evil clerics will detect as evil. At level 5 and above you don't detect as evil for having "an evil heart" or "wanting" to commit evil acts. You detect as evil for actually doing evil things.

Now, whether or not it is lawful or chaotic to kill someone who detects as and is legitmately evil is really a question to me. It's a lawful act for the paladin in accordance with a paladin's general nature (unless you're the redeemer type). Now, if the paladin does this in the wrong country he may be arrested and locked up and have to defend himself in court or some such. He may even receive punishment regardless of whether he was jutified in killing the evil person. That doesn't make it evil or choatic.

Paladin's respect good laws, and will generally work within the law, but the lawful part of their alignment is more about their code and tenats they follow with their diety. Not about blindly following all laws everywhere.


Redchigh wrote:


If so, would running to save your life be justification for loss of powers for a day if your deity expects you to always fight, even if it does mean being a martyr?

I can think two of them and they both require the paladin in question to be part of a deity's paladin order (not any paladin that just worships said deity):

1) Paladin of Iomidae for not running away last.
2) Paladin of Serenrae when running from enemies that are stronly associated with Rovagug

Redchigh wrote:


What conditions have come up where a paladin lost powers in your games?
What conditions have come up where you disagreed with your DM on whether the paladin should have?

4 times has a paladin fallen in the games i have played and run:

1) 3.5 game the paladin accepted offer from evil powers and became a blackguard and thus became an NPC
2) Paladin of Serenrae fell for killing a gnoll who has dropped weapons and attempted to flee, the paladin ended up joining Iomidae's order of paladins and regained his powers.
3)
RotRL spoiler:
Dwarf paladin of Torag for not killing the goblin babies (if the GM chooses to place them) in Thisletop

When 2) happened the player argued with the DM (i was neither of them).


Claxon wrote:
Below level 5 only anti-palaidins and evil clerics will detect as evil.

Not evil clerics, clerics of evil deities have an evil aura and are detectable with detect evil. This is an important distinction becuase you can't detect (for example) an evil cleric of Gorum but you do detect as evil a LN cleric of Asmodeus.


leo1925 wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Below level 5 only anti-palaidins and evil clerics will detect as evil.
Not evil clerics, clerics of evil deities have an evil aura and are detectable with detect evil. This is an important distinction becuase you can't detect (for example) an evil cleric of Gorum but you do detect as evil a LN cleric of Asmodeus.

You do have a valid point, a CE cleric of Gorum wont detect as evil until 5th level, but he will detect as evil after that point as any evil person would.

As for the LN cleric of Asmodeus, he would detect as evil without actually being evil and though the paladin could try smite him, it wouldn't work. He could still be convinced to kill the lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus and his god would probably be okay with it. After all a cleric of Asomdeus is furthering the cause of evil.


Claxon wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Below level 5 only anti-palaidins and evil clerics will detect as evil.
Not evil clerics, clerics of evil deities have an evil aura and are detectable with detect evil. This is an important distinction becuase you can't detect (for example) an evil cleric of Gorum but you do detect as evil a LN cleric of Asmodeus.

You do have a valid point, a CE cleric of Gorum wont detect as evil until 5th level, but he will detect as evil after that point as any evil person would.

As for the LN cleric of Asmodeus, he would detect as evil without actually being evil and though the paladin could try smite him, it wouldn't work. He could still be convinced to kill the lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus and his god would probably be okay with it. After all a cleric of Asomdeus is furthering the cause of evil.

I am trying not to touch the topic, not even with a standard issue 10 foot pole, i only corrected you because i didn't want anyone learning something wrong by your post.


Claxon wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Below level 5 only anti-palaidins and evil clerics will detect as evil.
Not evil clerics, clerics of evil deities have an evil aura and are detectable with detect evil. This is an important distinction becuase you can't detect (for example) an evil cleric of Gorum but you do detect as evil a LN cleric of Asmodeus.

You do have a valid point, a CE cleric of Gorum wont detect as evil until 5th level, but he will detect as evil after that point as any evil person would.

As for the LN cleric of Asmodeus, he would detect as evil without actually being evil and though the paladin could try smite him, it wouldn't work. He could still be convinced to kill the lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus and his god would probably be okay with it. After all a cleric of Asomdeus is furthering the cause of evil.

Except he's lawful neutral, so he's doing as much good as bad (or else, y'know, he'd be Evil). So really, no, he isn't furthing the cause of evil (which really sounds horribly Saturday Morning Cartoonish).


I also normally try to avoid these sorts of threads but this one still seems to be under reasonable discussion. I will third what Claxon and DrDeth have noted about alignment. I'm only weighing in because I don't want to see the OP taking advice about alignment that is operating under faulty assumptions.

As stated, committing evil acts is what makes someone have an evil alignment. If someone has absolutely no morals or scruples it doesn't make them evil - it makes them neutral, regardless of level. I've found this is probably one of the biggest and most common mistakes/misconceptions when dealing with non-good alignments. Being ACTIVELY immoral or unscrupulous is what makes one evil.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
As for the LN cleric of Asmodeus, he would detect as evil without actually being evil and though the paladin could try smite him, it wouldn't work.

Unless that paladin had a good enough constant on his damage that he one-shots the low level cleric without the smite.

Seriously, I'm for mixing potions of infernal healing into the milk those orphans are pouring over their breakfast cereal, while inviting the Paladin to stop by and play Officer Friendly...


leo1925 wrote:
Redchigh wrote:


If so, would running to save your life be justification for loss of powers for a day if your deity expects you to always fight, even if it does mean being a martyr?

I can think two of them and they both require the paladin in question to be part of a deity's paladin order (not any paladin that just worships said deity):

1) Paladin of Iomidae for not running away last.
2) Paladin of Serenrae when running from enemies that are stronly associated with Rovagug

These are examples of people who are WAY to legalistic on Paladins. Either of these if happened to me or someone at the table would be way out of line. No where in the lore of Sarenrae that you have to fight to the death against servants of Rovagug. This is a judgment call that makes it not just restrictive to play a paladin but nigh on impossible. As for the Paladin of Imodae again its a judgment call. If the battle goes poorly and the less injured ranger covers the retreat of the party instead of the near dead paladin that is in no way grounds for a paladin to fall. In fact it forcing super lawful stupid behavior on a lawful good character.

Redchigh wrote:


What conditions have come up where a paladin lost powers in your games?
What conditions have come up where you disagreed with your DM on whether the paladin should have?

4 times has a paladin fallen in the games i have played and run:

1) 3.5 game the paladin accepted offer from evil powers and became a blackguard and thus became an NPC
2) Paladin of Serenrae fell for killing a gnoll who has dropped weapons and attempted to flee, the paladin ended up joining Iomidae's order of paladins and regained his powers.
3) ** spoiler omitted **

When 2) happened the player argued with the DM (i was neither of them).

One obviously a paladin would fall in this case at any table.

Two I like that repentance was offered. If I was dming I would make it clear that the paladin was on thin ice and that not allowing quarter or chance for repentance particularly as a follower of Sarenrae is going to result in losing favor of the goddess.

3:
That is beyond unfair. I understand dwarves and goblins hate each other and so on. But a character refusing to kill babies seems like a solid good before law moment.

Paladin's are not going to be perfect and expecting people to be perfect is unfair.

AS for the detect/smite approach. Just remind the paladin that there are ways to sense evil that do not mean that the person is evil. Hence the orphans who have been receiving healing from an evil priest are not deserving of death. Detecting should be grounds for suspicion, investigation and vigilance not a murder the person without consequence.

Liberty's Edge

Gnomezrule wrote:
Hence the orphans who have been receiving healing from an evil priest are not deserving of death. Detecting should be grounds for suspicion, investigation and vigilance not a murder the person without consequence.

"Kill them all. Let God sort them out." - Leland Gaunt, as played by Max Von Sydow in Needful Things, and an inspiration to Paladins everywhere...


@Gnomezrule
About the paladin of Iomidae: if (in your example) the ranger chooses to give his life in order for the party and the paladin to escape then the paladin shouldn't fall, if on the other hand the ranger stays behind in order to cover for them because the ranger is the slowest member of the team then the paladin would fall.
For the paladin of Serenrae: you are wrong, as long as the paladin's life wouldn't be wasted fighting the forces of Rovagug then yes he must give his life trying to slay them.
For the paladin of Torag: Any other paladin wouldn't fall (except maybe a paladin of Erastil from Sandpoint) but not a dwarf paladin of Torag, he has to slay the enemies of his people and scatter their families.

I say again, all of the above are true only in cases of paladins who are part of their deity's order of paladins and have taken the extra oaths that come with their order.


Claxon wrote:

Damn Kender infestation.

Now-a-days I just cut them open and use them as slippers during the winter. Filthy thieving little pickpockets.

"No please not that.....say are these yours? .....I found these juicy meatballs in a smelly danglysack, cut them out last night....."

Silver Crusade

leo1925 wrote:


For the paladin of Torag: Any other paladin wouldn't fall (except maybe a paladin of Erastil from Sandpoint) but not a dwarf paladin of Torag, he has to slay the enemies of his people and scatter their families.

He already slew the enemies. "Scattering their families" doesn't mean "murder their families".

Torag's code is more a call to destroy evil cultures rather than a call to genocide. Or at least that's the only way I can read it that doesn't drop his beardy ass straight to LE.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Now, whether or not it is lawful or chaotic to kill someone who detects as and is legitmately evil is really a question to me. It's a lawful act for the paladin in accordance with a paladin's general nature (unless you're the redeemer type). Now, if the paladin does this in the wrong country he may be arrested and locked up and have to defend himself in court or some such. He may even receive punishment regardless of whether he was jutified in killing the evil person. That doesn't make it evil or choatic.

If you were to walk into a jail and start executing convicted serial murderers and rapists, you would in turn be tried and convicted as a serial murderer. No better than those you killed.

That is here, now, today.

A lawful person is bound to follow the laws of the society within which they exist.

A person who chooses to disregard those laws, no matter how strict their personal code of honor, is chaotic.

Scarab Sages

Heymitch wrote:
"Kill them all. Let God sort them out." - Leland Gaunt, as played by Max Von Sydow in Needful Things, and an inspiration to Paladins everywhere...

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His.)

-Arnaud Amalric

Not from a movie.....

Liberty's Edge

Artanthos wrote:
If you were to walk into a jail and start executing convicted serial murderers and rapists, you would in turn be tried and convicted as a serial murderer. No better than those you killed.

Die!! In the name of Goodness!!


Imagine Obi-Wan Kenobi as a paladin. Would he have slain everyone on Tatooine, or (at least) in Mos Eisley? No, he would understand his environment, his limited ability to influence it, and seek out the greater good (Luke).

I recommend you encourage this player to expand his horizons and depth as a PC, and encourage him to see "the greater good". His role is not to cleanse the world of evil, it's to serve his diety in achieving the long-term "greater good".

Put him in the midst of evil. All the time, every day. Make him learn to swallow his pride and hubris, and avoid a quick and painful death by learning to swim in the ocean with the other fishes until he can glimpse the greater good. Tempt him with gradations of evil, so that evil desperately evil characters can be seen to be redeemable and turned towards the light.

I once had a paladin of Sarenrae lose his powers temporarily until he atoned (for executing a prisoner a little too quickly). It was a temporary "fall", just to demonstrate that the Powers that Be are paying attention to his deeds.


Artanthos wrote:

If you were to walk into a jail and start executing convicted serial murderers and rapists, you would in turn be tried and convicted as a serial murderer. No better than those you killed.

That is here, now, today.

A lawful person is bound to follow the laws of the society within which they exist.

A person who chooses to disregard those laws, no matter how strict their personal code of honor, is chaotic.

I disagree so much so. Again, lawful isn't only about obeying laws. Lawful is about a personal code, and paladins definitely have one. The paladin could be quite on the level with his god for slaying all the murderers and rapists in jail, and I for one would commend him (our justice system sucks). Now, whether or not the paladin would be arrested for acting outside the justice system is a completely different story. In many countries he might be, in our modern justice system he certainly would. But Golarion isn't modern earth. And in my opinion the paladin is many times better than the scum he killed. Don't apply real life laws and expectations to a game, it just doesn't make sense.

Lawful Good characters hate to see the guilty go unpunished, so if the laws of a country would allow a murderer to go unpunished for some reason I would very much expect the paladin to kill them and then turn himself in and accept the punishment. Also, one act of disobeying laws shouldn't turn a character instantly chaotic either. Further,a lawful character is especially not bound to follow the laws of a society in which they exist, especially if the laws are evil and the character is good. I have stated multiple times that a paladin will generally try to work within the confines of the law, but that doesn't mean he can never break the law without falling.

Let go of the alignment straight jacket.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Artanthos wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Now, whether or not it is lawful or chaotic to kill someone who detects as and is legitmately evil is really a question to me. It's a lawful act for the paladin in accordance with a paladin's general nature (unless you're the redeemer type). Now, if the paladin does this in the wrong country he may be arrested and locked up and have to defend himself in court or some such. He may even receive punishment regardless of whether he was jutified in killing the evil person. That doesn't make it evil or choatic.

If you were to walk into a jail and start executing convicted serial murderers and rapists, you would in turn be tried and convicted as a serial murderer. No better than those you killed.

That is here, now, today.

A lawful person is bound to follow the laws of the society within which they exist.

A person who chooses to disregard those laws, no matter how strict their personal code of honor, is chaotic.

Except, the game is not set here, nor now, nor today.

In a medieval world, they didn;t put murderers in prison.They executed them. And, out "beyond the pale" many of some rank had the Right of High, Medium and Low Justice, right there on the spot. Heck, in most of the medieval world the local lord had the right. Only in England and a few other places did the right to trial by jury exist- unless you were a Lord yourself.

So, the Knight with the Right of Justice would be Obeying the law, and it'd be chaotic NOT to.

Liberty's Edge

Owly wrote:
Imagine Obi-Wan Kenobi as a paladin. Would he have slain everyone on Tatooine, or (at least) in Mos Eisley? No, he would understand his environment, his limited ability to influence it, and seek out the greater good (Luke).

Obi-Wan was no Paladin! He didn't have the stones. Now, that Anakin guy, there was a Paladin. He knew how to put the old smite down!

Liberty's Edge

DrDeth wrote:

Except, the game is not set here, nor now, nor today.

In a medieval world, they didn;t put murderers in prison.They executed them. And, out "beyond the pale" many of some rank had the Right of High, Medium and Low Justice, right there on the spot. Heck, in most of the medieval world the local lord had the right. Only in England and a few other places did the right to trial by jury exist- unless you were a Lord yourself.

So, the Knight with the Right of Justice would be Obeying the law, and it'd be chaotic NOT to.

That's true. Paladins don't exist in the modern world.

They didn't exist in the medieval world either. If they did, though, they would be paragons of virtue, not crazed lunatics.

People who want to imagine Paladins as Dirty Harry or as Paul Kersey from the Death Wish movies, just want to play a character that way, while enjoying the mechanical benefits of the Paladin class.

If we had Paladins in the modern world, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't by killing the families of criminals just to save the rest of us from their taint.

Scarab Sages

Hi.

The Paladin Detect Evil spell-like ability is not the same as the Detect Evil spell.

/monkey wrench

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Moral of the story: Don't go to the forums for determining what a Paladin should do. It varies game by game. You work it out with the player, and that's how it works.

Read this: Should the Paladin Fall?

Then talk with the player.

That's it.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Redchigh wrote:

The game hasn't even started yet, but a close friend warned me that another player always plays lawful stupid, 'kill anything remotely evil' paladins.

Now, my game will absolutely have encounters that the parties can't win, since I'm trying to add a slight realism to the game.

Realism? <rubbing hands in glee> Me-sah know what to do when chaotic-evil players try to pass themselves off as lawful-good paladins:

*Bam!* *Bam!" *Bam!* "Open up in the name of the law! <constabulary smashes down door> "Sir Doofus, you are hereby under arrest for the murder of Petey Rangel, alias 'Lazy Eye', the used arms dealer, and his shop assistant, 'Squirrely' Jim. -- Killing them in broad daylight in front of half the town wasn't really the brightest of your plans, now was it? ...Please say you're resisting arrest."


Mikaze wrote:
leo1925 wrote:


For the paladin of Torag: Any other paladin wouldn't fall (except maybe a paladin of Erastil from Sandpoint) but not a dwarf paladin of Torag, he has to slay the enemies of his people and scatter their families.

He already slew the enemies. "Scattering their families" doesn't mean "murder their families".

Torag's code is more a call to destroy evil cultures rather than a call to genocide. Or at least that's the only way I can read it that doesn't drop his beardy ass straight to LE.

That is your interpretation of Torag's dogma, from what i have gathered Torag's children (dwarves) and orcs and goblinoids have all commited genocide to each other many times in their history.

And no i don't believe that genocide of being who belong to an evil race isn't evil.

Anyway if you want to play a paladin who belongs to a specific churches order of paladins and want to play that paladin as always seeing the good in others, believing that everyone can be saved from the dark vile claws and tentacles of evil then play a paladin of Serenrae or better yet Shelyn, if you want that paladin to be a more "traditional" paladin then play a paladin of Iomidae, if you want to play a champion of civilization, opener of roads and stuff then play a paladin of Abadar and if you want to play a harsh paladin who has the guts to do what he must then play a paladin of Torag or Erastil.

Scarab Sages

Redchigh wrote:

The game hasn't even started yet, but a close friend warned me that another player always plays lawful stupid, 'kill anything remotely evil' paladins.

Now, my game will absolutely have encounters that the parties can't win, since I'm trying to add a slight realism to the game. (In the same vain that real life campers occasionally might meet a grizzly bear. With intelligence, they'll survive, but attacking it would be a bad idea.)

I've also never had a paladin in a game before. Any tips?

Is smiting every evil you see really lawful good?
If so, would running to save your life be justification for loss of powers for a day if your deity expects you to always fight, even if it does mean being a martyr?

What conditions have come up where a paladin lost powers in your games?
What conditions have come up where you disagreed with your DM on whether the paladin should have?

Thanks.

BTW, my game is evil aberration -heavy horror, so I'm worried the player will get frustrated. Advice welcome.

If your game hasn't started yet then I would probably suggest just talking to your player. I'm not saying it will work but at least then you know where you stand. If after you have already told him about the theme that you are going for in the game he still goes all smite-crazy then pull no punches. This advice will vary from table to table of course. Just remember the goal of the game is to have fun. That goes for both the GM and the players.

Sovereign Court

DrDeth wrote:


In a medieval world, they didn;t put murderers in prison.They executed them. And, out "beyond the pale" many of some rank had the Right of High, Medium and Low Justice, right there on the spot. Heck, in most of the medieval world the local lord had the right. Only in England and a few other places did the right to trial by jury exist- unless you were a Lord yourself.

Thanks for someone bringing this up.


Davor wrote:

Hi.

The Paladin Detect Evil spell-like ability is not the same as the Detect Evil spell.

/monkey wrench

No?

Paladin
Detect Evil wrote:
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

A paladin uses the ability per the spell, with an exception about being able to more quickly determine one target as evil.

Consequently, does anyone wish that paladins just got detect alignment at will? I know that's an inquisitors thing, but I feel like Paladins should get it too.

Shadow Lodge

DrDeth wrote:
Eric Saxon wrote:

Any paladin that kills any evil runs the risk of becoming evil himself.

Example: A Lawful Evil lawyer is traveling through the woods with 2 bodyguards. You meet him. The lawyer has NO scruples and ZERO moral compass. By definition he is EVIL.
Killing him, simply because he detects as EVIL will have several consequences.

He doesn't detect as evil. Read the spell.

I didn't see where he said how many HD the lawyer had.


Most of the real world politicans, top managers, broker, banker, lawyer or even ignorant people who dont help if someone needs help are evil by PF rules. A lot of them should be a commoner or expert of lvl5 or higher .. evil is everywhere in the real world and in Golarion!

But .. the paladin lives to fight the real EVIL. He is send by gods to fight back the enemies of mankind, undead, demons, devils, evil gods and there followers!

Sure .. if they see a crime than they will act. They will stop a thug, kill a murder or inform the authority about a guy who is not good by their point of view (an evil tavern owner). They dont ignore the mundane evil but it is not their main enemy.

Mundane evil for the guards/authority .. REAL evil for the paladin!


Claxon wrote:
At level 5 and above you don't detect as evil for having "an evil heart" or "wanting" to commit evil acts. You detect as evil for actually doing evil things.

You did not read the whole spell.

Creatures with evil intents explicitly count as evil for the purposes of the spell.

Which could easily include the paladin who's just seen a innocent murdered and is thinking of nothing but revenge as opposed to justice.

This still doesn't make him evil. Acting on those intents may be evil, but intending evil things is enough to make you ping at 5 HD or more... explicitly.


Artanthos wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
"Kill them all. Let God sort them out." - Leland Gaunt, as played by Max Von Sydow in Needful Things, and an inspiration to Paladins everywhere...

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His.)

-Arnaud Amalric

Not from a movie.....

And NOT a "Good" act.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
I disagree so much so. Again, lawful isn't only about obeying laws. Lawful is about a personal code, and paladins definitely have one.

Robin Hood, the poster child for Chaotic Good, had a strong personal moral code.

He did not, however, respect the laws of the society in which he lived.


KrispyXIV wrote:
Claxon wrote:
At level 5 and above you don't detect as evil for having "an evil heart" or "wanting" to commit evil acts. You detect as evil for actually doing evil things.

You did not read the whole spell.

Creatures with evil intents explicitly count as evil for the purposes of the spell.

Which could easily include the paladin who's just seen a innocent murdered and is thinking of nothing but revenge as opposed to justice.

This still doesn't make him evil. Acting on those intents may be evil, but intending evil things is enough to make you ping at 5 HD or more... explicitly.

Actively evil intents means about to commit actions which are evil. Not thinking "Hey, I really don't like that guy and it'd be nice to kill him" but never actually intends to. It means the "neutral" guy about to commit his first armed robbery/murder will detect as evil as he's waiting for his drunk target to stumble down the street.

Artanthos wrote:

Robin Hood, the poster child for Chaotic Good, had a strong personal moral code.

He did not, however, respect the laws of the society in which he lived.

There is a Paladin written in one of the adventure paths (or some other cannon paizo product, I forget which) which actively fights against Cheliax and helps to the PCs to do things which would be assuredly illegal activities. That is absolutely precedent that Paladins are not blind law following machines.


Artanthos wrote:


He did not, however, respect the laws of the society in which he lived.

Except for the versions of the story where he's opposing a usurper to the rightful King who's stripped his family of what is rightfully theirs through illegal means.

In those hes lawful good, as he's opposing unlawful rule by acting in the spirit of the true law of the land.

...just saying.


DrDeth wrote:


In a medieval world, they didn;t put murderers in prison.They executed them. And, out "beyond the pale" many of some rank had the Right of High, Medium and Low Justice, right there on the spot. Heck, in most of the medieval world the local lord had the right. Only in England and a few other places did the right to trial by jury exist- unless you were a Lord yourself.

So, the Knight with the Right of Justice would be Obeying the law, and it'd be chaotic NOT to.

Actually, that's pretty much a myth. Throughout the medieval world, Western European, Eastern European, Islamic, Chinese and Japanese (sorry, I can't really speak for the African civilizations), the people in power were just as opposed to individuals taking the law into their own hands as they are today. A knight in Europe had the right of "low justice" ON HIS SUBJECTS. If he tried to Summarily enforce the law on somebody else's serf, then HE was guilty of a breach in the law.

Remember the lords and the knights (and Samurai, and the Celtic warriors, and Norse Thegns and so on) were the 1% of their day. They could get away with treating their peasants badly, because they had the monopoly on power. This did not make it "right" or "good". In fact, using Europe again, the church constantly preached against abuse of power (while members of the church abused power themselves, but that's another story.


I'm somewhat blind posting on this, but I love Paladins, Clerics, I love playing divine characters and I love Knights. Like Serenity/Firefly, I feel like Faith is a powerful thing to have. Even my non-divine characters are devoted to a god.

I really dislike when people use the Paladin Code as a trap for Paladins. I think if a person wants to play a Paladin, if the GM is going to be watching him like a hawk to make him fall, he's GM Vs Players and it's not a good way to play. I play different kinds of Paladins, sometimes the face, other times I have a Stoic Protector, who isn't the face, but if someone comes at me or my party, I will protect them with everything I have, and other times I've had a Vengeful Paladin who was called after a checkered past and has to be careful with his actions.

Other players play Paladins and try and push around other players to play the way that will mesh with their character, that's just as bad, if not worse than the C/E Diabolist who is trying to make your Paladin fall. Sure, maybe the Evil player won't lose any powers by becoming good, but you shouldn't strong arm someone into being like you. Someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

Good Roleplay for a Paladin requires an understanding between the GM, The Paladin and his group. You can't make other play the way you want, but it is a good role play if you can discuss concerns in character. Part of being Good Character is looking out for your team sometimes. I feel Good should supercede Lawful.

I love Sturm Brightblade of Dragonlance and the Code and Measure, but that's really stressful for a GM, so I scale it back, or talk with my GM before I play with a strict code where I can't run from a fight willingly.

Please, please, talk with the Player and reach a compromise and an understanding of how to effectively play a Paladin in your campaign. There was a great example in the beginning of the first Dragonlance Novel where Sturm and his group was attacked and clearly out matched, so in order to get him to leave, they had to appeal to the part of his code that said he had to protect ladies, and they were able to get him to leave. You shouldn't have to go that far, but there are ways to work with the code within the group.


Claxon wrote:

Actively evil intents means about to commit actions which are evil. Not thinking "Hey, I really don't like that guy and it'd be nice to kill him" but never actually intends to. It means the "neutral" guy about to commit his first armed robbery/murder will detect as evil as he's waiting for his drunk target to stumble down the street..

No, not unless he’s undead, an Evil Outsider, a priest of a Evil deity or at least 5th level.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
pachristian wrote:
DrDeth wrote:


In a medieval world, they didn;t put murderers in prison.They executed them. And, out "beyond the pale" many of some rank had the Right of High, Medium and Low Justice, right there on the spot. Heck, in most of the medieval world the local lord had the right. Only in England and a few other places did the right to trial by jury exist- unless you were a Lord yourself.

So, the Knight with the Right of Justice would be Obeying the law, and it'd be chaotic NOT to.

Actually, that's pretty much a myth. Throughout the medieval world, Western European, Eastern European, Islamic, Chinese and Japanese (sorry, I can't really speak for the African civilizations), the people in power were just as opposed to individuals taking the law into their own hands as they are today. A knight in Europe had the right of "low justice" ON HIS SUBJECTS. If he tried to Summarily enforce the law on somebody else's serf, then HE was guilty of a breach in the law.

Well, since that’s my area of expertise, I can say it’s not a myth. Like I said, when we’re talking Knights and such, we’re talking “beyond the pale”, which is a lawless region outside of a Lord direct authority. Inside of a Nobles direct authority, he (or those he delegated to) had such a right on his subjects. So, I am not talking about Knights and Nobles “taking the law into their own hands “ I am talking about them having the legal authority to do so.

(Some Orders of Knighthood, like the Templar’s and Teutonic’s had special dispensations to act in certain areas, also).


DrDeth wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Actively evil intents means about to commit actions which are evil. Not thinking "Hey, I really don't like that guy and it'd be nice to kill him" but never actually intends to. It means the "neutral" guy about to commit his first armed robbery/murder will detect as evil as he's waiting for his drunk target to stumble down the street..

No, not unless he’s undead, an Evil Outsider, a priest of a Evil deity or at least 5th level.

Actually, you're more correct. The spell does say that a creature that intends to commit evil qualifies as evil, which I took to be a specific, but it could also be interpretted as still conforming to the table in the spell. Which means a 4th level CN rogue about to commit his first murder wont detect as evil, but the 5th level CN rogue about to commit his first murder would.

Sovereign Court

pachristian wrote:
Remember the lords and the knights (and Samurai, and the Celtic warriors, and Norse Thegns and so on) were the 1% of their day.

Adventuring PCs and Paladins especially are in that same rarefied sphere.

51 to 100 of 141 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / how to handle an aggressive 'lawful stupid' paladin? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.