How much is Vorpal really worth?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Stating your opinion as fact doesn't make it so. It is your opinion, which is far from broadly supported in this thread. A "fair price" will vary widely. It's subjective.

Many of the "house rules in this thread" look more like off-the-cuff brainstorming to help you with "your" problem - mine certainly was. That in no way demonstrates the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the weapon property.

You are under the unfortunate assumption we have to prove something to you. That's not the case. The individuals weighing in on topic were attempting to help you - you know, providing ideas to hopefully help you make a decision. You've yet to provide any solid evidence that +5 is not a fair price or why and continue to be antagonistic with opposing view poiints. At this point, I'm sure you care as much about my opinion as I care about yours.

In my opinion, the only real relevant argument regarding vorpal weapons (see what I did there? Stated an opinion as such), since all other save or die effects have been removed from the game, does this effect exist at all?

Editted to Add:

Orfamay Quest wrote:
If you have an actual reason to argue that black is in fact white -- to support the +5 other than history, feel free to provide it and I'll re-consider.

Furthermore, "history" is a valid argument. You don't get to dictate what elements an individual may base their opinion on. Core Rules are the benchmark. You can weigh any discussion in favor of your opinion if allowed to set the terms by which opposing view points may argue.


It is not a fair price, just change it to whatever you judge worthy. Experience will tell if it was wrong or not.


Fair price is shown with the old sentence "put your money where your mouth us"

How many of the people who think Vorpal is fairly priced has paid for it? How many would buy a +1 vorpal longsword over a +5 keen longsword?


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Raoni Luna wrote:
It is not a fair price, just change it to whatever you judge worthy.

And now we've gone 100% in a circle. I start by asking "how much is it really worth," a whole bunch of people jump on board to tell me that's it's totally worth the sticker price if you change every other rule in the game, no one addresses the question of how much it's actually worth if you leave the other rules as written, and now you tell me it's worth whatever it's worth.


Da'ath wrote:

Stating your opinion as fact doesn't make it so. It is your opinion, which is far from broadly supported in this thread. A "fair price" will vary widely. It's subjective.

Many of the "house rules in this thread" look more like off-the-cuff brainstorming to help you with "your" problem - mine certainly was. That in no way demonstrates the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the weapon property.

You are under the unfortunate assumption we have to prove something to you. That's not the case. The individuals weighing in on topic were attempting to help you - you know, providing ideas to hopefully help you make a decision. You've yet to provide any solid evidence that +5 is not a fair price or why and continue to be antagonistic with opposing view poiints. At this point, I'm sure you care as much about my opinion as I care about yours.

In my opinion, the only real relevant argument regarding vorpal weapons (see what I did there? Stated an opinion as such), since all other save or die effects have been removed from the game, does this effect exist at all?

Editted to Add:

Orfamay Quest wrote:
If you have an actual reason to argue that black is in fact white -- to support the +5 other than history, feel free to provide it and I'll re-consider.
Furthermore, "history" is a valid argument. You don't get to dictate what elements an individual may base their opinion on. Core Rules are the benchmark. You can weigh any discussion in favor of your opinion if allowed to set the terms by which opposing view points may argue.

So, you still don't actually have anything to say that actually addresses the question, then. Glad to hear it.


Well, at least it's way better than wounding for +2 :P


"how much is it worth" = As writen in PHB. = +5 bonus.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Well, at least it's way better than wounding for +2 :P

I think a case could be made that Wounding is better than Vorpal. Wounding, at least, will eventually kill anything that can't cast spells or make Heal checks. A single hit of any kind will eventually kill a vermin or animal if you can just sit and wait it out, for example.

This argues, I think, for a +3. If we agree that Vorpal is better than Wounding, but worse than Speed, that would make it a +3. Opinions?


So, ok, giving it a price...

An effect that have 5% chance
That does not work on all enemies
That you have to confirm...

+3 I'd say...

Thinking about lvl 20, as a base, with 5 attacks per round and you get one of these each 4 full attacks or each 20 single attacks, a little bit different with haste

I'm not sure but I think that the enemies that you can hit easily will die before the natural 20 and the ones that you have a hard time fighting against will be immune or have resources against it

Usually there many creatures without conventional anatomies so it depends on the adventure, if you're fighting only creatures with heads that need their heads and you have many attacks per round then yeah it deserves +5 price, overall I'd stick with +3, vs. undeads, constructs, oozes, etc +0

Another reason for the +5, a very weak character could use it to try his luck, but again, it is limited


Oliver McShade wrote:
"how much is it worth" = As writen in PHB. = +5 bonus.

That's how much it costs, not how much it's worth.

I can find a copy of the Gamemastery Flip Mat: City Streets that costs nine hundred dollars. That doesn't mean it's worth nine hundred dollars.


Vorpal is one of the most powerful enchantments in the game, and is absolutely a +5 enchantment. You need to look at the broader picture, especially considering its price and what level you'll be able to afford and use one. For a 15th level fighter with most likely 6 attacks per round (two-weapon + haste), that is a lot of attacks. You're pretty much guaranteed to roll a nat 20 during every combat. That's an IK against nearly every monster.

But that's just the obvious with the fighter. There's a whole 'nother kettle of fish when you look at the Ronin Samurai. Once per day, a level 15 Ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. This is isn't like the fighter where it's treated as a simple critical, no, but a natural 20. That means special properties that only go off on a roll of a natural 20 work with the Ronin ability. Special properties like vorpal.

In my opinion it's definitely a +5 enchantment.


olePigeon wrote:
Vorpal is one of the most powerful enchantments in the game, and is absolutely a +5 enchantment. You need to look at the broader picture, especially considering its price and what level you'll be able to afford and use one. For a 15th level fighter with most likely 6 attacks per round (two-weapon + haste), that is a lot of attacks. You're pretty much guaranteed to roll a nat 20 during every combat. That's an IK against nearly every monster.

Not really. I mean, yes, it's an IK against (some) monsters you were going to kill anyway. Any monster that lets a buffed 15th level fighter get in their face and get off round after round of full attacks is either immune to the fighter's attacks or is going down. But it also takes, on average, twenty rolls to get your first natural 20, and half of those natural 20s aren't going to confirm as critical hits, so on average it will take 40 hits before you get your killing blow.

You're not serious, by the way, about using a TWF build with a vorpal weapon, are you? Unless you've got TWO vorpal weapons, you're only getting half of your attacks using the vorpal property. I'll cheerfully give you four attacks per round with the vorpal weapon (iteratives plus haste),... but that means it takes 10 rounds for your "instant" kill. I can make instant oatmeal faster than you can score your instant kill.

I suspect the 200 additional points of damage a vanilla +5 enhancement bonus would have done over those rounds (between additional hits and bonus damage on each hit) would have killed your opponent more quickly. I'd certainly rather have the (+3) speed ability and get 10 more attacks at full BAB over the course of those rounds.

I don't believe the ability to "instantly" kill (some) things over the course of a minute is worth +5.

Quote:


But that's just the obvious with the fighter. There's a whole 'nother kettle of fish when you look at the Ronin Samurai. Once per day, a level 15 Ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. This is isn't like the fighter where it's treated as a simple critical, no, but a natural 20. That means special properties that only go off on a roll of a natural 20 work with the Ronin ability. Special properties like vorpal.

Well, that's an ability that I'm not familiar with, and I agree that that particular ability synergizes nicely with the vorpal property. It's also something I can build around, tactically -- save up that one hit for the big bad (and hope it's not a lich). But it's also only once a day, and only if I confirm the hit.

Is that really worth more than Speed?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

If your campaign has the Jaberwocky then being able to get past that Vorpal DR is worth the +5, but otherwise, +3 sounds about right.


olePigeon wrote:

Vorpal is one of the most powerful enchantments in the game, and is absolutely a +5 enchantment. You need to look at the broader picture, especially considering its price and what level you'll be able to afford and use one. For a 15th level fighter with most likely 6 attacks per round (two-weapon + haste), that is a lot of attacks. You're pretty much guaranteed to roll a nat 20 during every combat. That's an IK against nearly every monster.

Only people who isn't adept with maths like Vorpal. They tend to overvalue the 20s thing.

With 6 attacks per round, your chance to get a 20 in one round is 26.49%. And that's not counting the confirmation roll, which depends on which attack you roll your 20, as the last itteratives are less likely to conect. EDIT: Assuming you confirm 75% of the attacks on average, it's 21% in one round, roughly

You need 14 attacks to have better than 50% chance, and you need 44 attacks to break the 90% chance. Again, not counting the confirmation roll.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

That's because no one's actually suggested anything.

You gave me an ipso facto +5. Rynjin suggested +3, again without justification. My lucky d6 suggests a +2.

Methinks you have confused the word "suggested" with "argued".

Suggestions don't need justification. You asked me what I thought it was worth, I said +3?

Why? I felt that was a fair price for it.

I think it's at least worth as much as Speed. Your chances of getting an instakill are about the same as having a party where nobody casts Haste, after all.

Sczarni

Vorpal always bothered me because it's such a transparent reference to the Lewis Carroll poem. Does Lewis Carroll exist on Golarion? No? Then why are there vorpal weapons?

I agree that Vorpal should definitely not still be on the books-- it's only there because it's one of the "sacred cows" that Paizo was afraid to slay when they created Pathfinder. Here are my suggestions:

1) "Accidentally" spill some barbecue sauce on that page of the CRB.

2) Houserule a whole mess of other weapon enhancements named after Lewis Carroll lines. "Galumphing", "Mome", "Brillig", we could go on...

3) If you want to know what Vorpal is really worth, I'd argue +2, since its only real use is as Bane(jabberwock). Possibly +3, since Speed being the only +3 property in the book always kind of bothered me.


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Silent Saturn wrote:
Does Lewis Carroll exist on Golarion? No? Then why are there vorpal weapons?

Um, same reason there are jabberwocks, jubjub birds, and bandersnatches?

Also, Tolkien doesn't exist in Golarion. We should totally get rid of orcs and halflings and treants.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Silent Saturn wrote:
Does Lewis Carroll exist on Golarion? No? Then why are there vorpal weapons?

Um, same reason there are jabberwocks, jubjub birds, and bandersnatches?

Also, Tolkien doesn't exist in Golarion. We should totally get rid of orcs and halflings and treants.

That's why those guys are halflings and treeants, not hobbits and Ents.

I WOULD PROPOSE TO MAKE VORPAL SOME + XXXX GOLD ABILITY INSTEAD OF A BONUS SINCE IT DOESN'T SYNERGIZE WITH OTHER ENCHANTMENTS AT ALL!

That being said, lets look about making good use of the Vorpal Blade:

1)One needs to get many attacks.

2)One weapon costs less than two allowing for more other equipment.

3)Attack Bonus isn't that important, since you just wanna get your 20 to kill the guy.

4)Rerolls would be nice to increase the kill chance. So if the GM allows Hero Points you might get more viable.

What would youb guys think of Monk X/Wild Rager 1 using a two-handed Vorpal Temple Sword. We might put in up to 3 lvls of other dips(for rerolls etc.) without losing out one of our 8 attacks.

Shadow Lodge

I'd judge Vorpal at a +3 bonus in general, fluctuating throughout the encounter as a GM fiat saying that market changed and its higher or lower. A plus 3 seems fair because I see it as being more situational then elemental burst because of consistency vs. resistance/vulnerability/immune/elemental healing, yet nothing that I know of has anything that immunizes or resists vorpal other than 2+ heads. If you make the price fluctuate, you can break the weapon if its overpowered or reduce the price if it loses value later in the game.


I can see the argument for vorpal being too expensive. But I for one would rather they overpriced instant death effects than underpriced them. Nothing else can turn a fight around on a dime quite like a successful instant death attack.

So to me the question is at what price would vorpal be the enchantment everyone gets? Whatever that price is the actual price should be higher.

- Torger


I3igAl wrote:

What would youb guys think of Monk X/Wild Rager 1 using a two-handed Vorpal Temple Sword. We might put in up to 3 lvls of other dips(for rerolls etc.) without losing out one of our 8 attacks.

Monk with a vorpal sword, I'm so very sold.

- Torger


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I3igAl wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Silent Saturn wrote:
Does Lewis Carroll exist on Golarion? No? Then why are there vorpal weapons?

Um, same reason there are jabberwocks, jubjub birds, and bandersnatches?

Also, Tolkien doesn't exist in Golarion. We should totally get rid of orcs and halflings and treants.

That's why those guys are halflings and treeants, not hobbits and Ents.

That's because Tolkien is still protected by copyrights. Carroll is not. It's the same reason you have Leng spiders and hounds of Tindalos.


orthogonal to your question, but I sort of want to redefine vorpal to be "increase your crit multiplier by one step (e.g. from x2 to x3), does not stack with similar effects" and price it similarly to keen. (Or maybe you could make it a +2 if you are worried about keen vorpal falchions. Or maybe make it not stack with keen.)
That sort of keeps the idea of vorpal a little (crits are bad) without making it so crazy.


Increase multiplier is much stronger than keen. Unless it doesn't stack with imp crit, it should be +2 and borderline +3


Hmm, well, let's get a rough estimate of how much damage Vorpal is likely to do. We're consider the Equivalent Bonus Damage (EBD).

Assume Critical proc half of the time (given that some threats happen late in the iterative attacks). So EBD will be equal to the average bonus damage on a proc (PEBD) times 2.5%.

Let's take a Fighter 16 with a +1 Vorpal Greatsword.
Damage on a hit: 2d6 + 15 (Strength) + 1 (Magic) + 4 (Fighter) + 15 (Power Attack) ~= 42 damage.
All vorpal hits are criticals, so that's 84 damage.

A vorpal attack does NO damage if the critical would already kill the monster. We shall assume an enemy is equally likely to be at any health condition. That is, the chance the attack hits when the enemy is at 100% is as likely as if the enemy were at 50% or 20% or 43%, etc, etc.

Further, we shall use the Designing Monster guidelines to give an estimate of the health of monsters at CR 16 (240HP), CR 17 (270), CR 18 (300), and CR 19 (330). We shall assume all enemies are vulnerable to the vorpal property.

Overall we are weighting things in favor of vorpal being useful for this Fighter.

Spoiler:
We shall calculate PEBD for a given CR as follows:

[Average Damage Vorpal Delivers] * [% When Vorpal is useful].

Ex: CR 16: If the enemy has over 35% health, then Vorpal does some damage -- (240-84)/240 = 65% (Total Health - [Damage that would Kill it] = Interval of Health when the hit would not be lethal. Divide by total health and you get the percentage when Vorpal is useful IF it procs.

Now, to figure out the average damage, we just need to multiply the average equivalent health damage vorpal deals by how often it would be useful. Vorpal only is helping here when Health is OVER 84, and we are assuming the health could be anywhere from 85 to 240 with equal probability. So that's simply (240-84)/2 to figure out the average damage. Multiple by 65% (how often it is useful) and we get our PEBD for CR 16).

So 65% of the time it is useful when it procs. PEBD against a CR 16 is (240-84)/2*0.65 = 50.7

Putting it all together:

PBED at CR X = (H - D)/2*[(H - D)/H] or (H - D)^2/(2H)
Where H = total HP and D is average Damage on a crit

CR 16 (240HP): 50.7 = A

CR 17 (270HP): ~64.1 = B

CR 18 (300HP): ~77.8 = C

CR 19 (330HP): ~91.7 = D

Let's assume a CR 16 is twice as common as a CR 17, which is twice as common as a CR 18, which is twice as common as a CR 19.

If we calculate the likelihood of a given CR in terms of CR 19 likelihood, then 100% = X + 2X + 4X + 8X = 15X, so X = 6.66%
This is important since Vorpal is more powerful against higher CR enemies, but they come up less often, so the extra power comes up less (and indeed, if something is coming up 1/15 of the time vorpal procs 1/40 attacks, then the likelihood of Vorpal actually coming up here is VERY small).

So, PEBD = X*(D + 2C + 4B + 8A) = 60.6

BUT, EBD = PEBD/40 = 1.5

So...that's underwhelming. It's worse than most +1s.

This is why you should NEVER EVER get Vorpal.

(Note, the above conclusion is fairly robust. Even if my estimates result in an error of a factor of 2 or 3, that's still only a EBD of 3 to 4.5 -- assuming I am estimating low instead of high).


Good aproach

EDit: to make things worse, vorpal does 0 damage if you would had killed the monster with other itterative attacks. IE: if you have 6 attacks, and your 2nd one happen to be vorpal, ot doesn't matter unless you couldn't kill the monster with the remaining 4 attacks.

If you could kill it by raw damage with the rest of your attacks, which you can't use on anything else, ots pointless


I'd add that Vorpal at +1 or even +2 is not something I'd allow in a game I ran. Even a 1% chance of an anti-climatic fight with he big bad is not something I think is cool. That's the problem with instant-death. I'd rather make it a +10 or +20 damage ability.

In other words, a 1% chance of making the game notably less fun is not something I like at all.


jerrys wrote:

orthogonal to your question, but I sort of want to redefine vorpal to be "increase your crit multiplier by one step (e.g. from x2 to x3), does not stack with similar effects" and price it similarly to keen. (Or maybe you could make it a +2 if you are worried about keen vorpal falchions. Or maybe make it not stack with keen.)

That sort of keeps the idea of vorpal a little (crits are bad) without making it so crazy.

I kind of like this idea... I'm actually kind of surprised there's not something in the game for this already.

I agree that it should probably be priced higher than Keen, but not all the way up to +5 as currently.

Drachasor, how would this change affect your calculations?


Da'ath wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
So, I've had a lot of people in this thread tell me Vorpal is totally worth +5 if you change all the other rules surrounding it.

Isn't that what you're suggesting with your desire to change it from natural 20 to full threat range?

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Anyone feel like estimating an actual value for Vorpal as written?

As written, +5, which seems to correspond to the value from 3.5 to current.

You really don't seem to be interested in anything suggested by anyone that doesn't agree with your stance on it.

In one post you ask for the "value," totally ignoring what Rynjin and some others suggest, while in another you think changing the rules to allow for full threat range is a "good starting point".

You seem pretty dead set on your stance on the matter, so I'm not really sure why you bothered to post the question in the first place.

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
It depends on how lucky you are. I have a friend who crits once nearly every encounter and rolls nat ones less often than he sky dives. We've made him use store dice to make sure he's not cheating. If he uses vorpal, you die.

I have a friend with similar "luck". My solution was to institute a new method of rolling dice: the die cup. Everyone uses it, when it is your turn it is passed to you. Die rolls hit the table and are not touched until the person to the left of you confirms the number. It slowed things a bit at first, but corrected the problem - all without calling out a friend.

A supplement to this rule is as follows: if you can't hit the table, you can't hit the monster.

It is one of the few ways to deal with a dice manipulator. We went as far as to order Precision Dice from Game Science. After a few games of making him use those dice amazingly his dice now all roll more randomly!

As for the vorpal, the only ones I have seen in games in the last 13 years or so have been wielded by Balors. Thus far no one has been beheaded. If you can afford a +6 weapon you are probably going to defeat the monster anyway. There are better weapons out there. Not worth the price IMHO. Give me a two-handed Holy Avenger any day.


Orthos wrote:
jerrys wrote:

orthogonal to your question, but I sort of want to redefine vorpal to be "increase your crit multiplier by one step (e.g. from x2 to x3), does not stack with similar effects" and price it similarly to keen. (Or maybe you could make it a +2 if you are worried about keen vorpal falchions. Or maybe make it not stack with keen.)

That sort of keeps the idea of vorpal a little (crits are bad) without making it so crazy.

I kind of like this idea... I'm actually kind of surprised there's not something in the game for this already.

I agree that it should probably be priced higher than Keen, but not all the way up to +5 as currently.

Drachasor, how would this change affect your calculations?

It would change them in the sense that I'd need to do different ones and it is more complicated. Vorpal has an advantage in that 20s always hit, for instance.

I'll see about looking at an increased multiplier in the next day or two.

Sovereign Court

Randomness is and always should be heavily weighted against when it comes to effects like that. Even if you think it is overpriced there are tables out there where it utterly destroys campaigns or has been out right banned.

Silver Crusade

And a minor backtracking, the old 3.0 version, the threatened crit range was up to 8-20.

Went something like this:

  • Special weapon material, that increased the base threat range by 1 (I believe the name was Quicksilver? Something like that, bad with names from over a decade ago)

    So now we have a scimitar with a 17-20 crit range

  • Keen and Improved Critical stacked, so 17-20 becomes 12-20 becomes 8-20 with just one feat and a +1 ability.

  • And Vorpal in 3.0 fired on every crit. At least potentially.

    So a dual-scimitar/kukri focused ranger with two +7 equivalents could simply walk through just about anything. Rather boring for everyone else...

I'd be a fan of the idea of that idea of changing Vorpal into a +3 cost, increases the base crit multiplier by 1 (x2 becoming x3, etc). Perhaps it's flashbacks of my earlier gaming years, but increasing the range that a potential instant death effect fires on makes my nerves twitch. However, I agree with the notion of a +5 cost enchantment for a potential to one-shot (most) enemies is just too expensive for what the player pays. +3 seems a bit on the cheaper side of the comfort zone, so perhaps +4? Rather large difference between the +4 and +5 in terms of when it'll show up as an option for the players, after all.

The temple sword + monk with flurry of blows idea does make me want to start some probability curves for that nat 20 though.


Natrim wrote:

And a minor backtracking, the old 3.0 version, the threatened crit range was up to 8-20.

Went something like this:

  • Special weapon material, that increased the base threat range by 1 (I believe the name was Quicksilver? Something like that, bad with names from over a decade ago)

    So now we have a scimitar with a 17-20 crit range

  • Keen and Improved Critical stacked, so 17-20 becomes 12-20 becomes 8-20 with just one feat and a +1 ability.

  • And Vorpal in 3.0 fired on every crit. At least potentially.

    So a dual-scimitar/kukri focused ranger with two +7 equivalents could simply walk through just about anything. Rather boring for everyone else...

I'd be a fan of the idea of that idea of changing Vorpal into a +3 cost, increases the base crit multiplier by 1 (x2 becoming x3, etc). Perhaps it's flashbacks of my earlier gaming years, but increasing the range that a potential instant death effect fires on makes my nerves twitch. However, I agree with the notion of a +5 cost enchantment for a potential to one-shot (most) enemies is just too expensive for what the player pays. +3 seems a bit on the cheaper side of the comfort zone, so perhaps +4? Rather large difference between the +4 and +5 in terms of when it'll show up as an option for the players, after all.

The temple sword + monk with flurry of blows idea does make me want to start some probability curves for that nat 20 though.

lol, my group had never updated from that version, which led to it being an artifact only effect in several games.


I firmly believe Vorpal is worth +5. That said, the OP asks a very interesting question in how much is that worth? I'd like to flip that around, to what could you get for how much +5 is worth.

At the minimum, +5 costs 70K (+1 to +6). As an unlimited times per day spell, 70k would buy you: 70k/2k = 35 Spell*caster levels, that works 1/20th of the time (ignoring confirmation). Flipping that out, you get an ability equivalent to 700 spell*caster levels. That's somewhat equivalent of a 18th level spell from a 37th level caster. Minimum DC 37 - pretty unstoppable for almost any opponent.


Well, whatever your opinion is, just make sure to throw a Cyclops Ronin carrying a vorpal sword against the party.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Only people who isn't adept with maths like Vorpal. They tend to overvalue the 20s thing.

Nearly 25% cumulative chance to IK most monsters every round, with unlimited uses, and no saving throw. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's pretty darn powerful.


olePigeon wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Only people who isn't adept with maths like Vorpal. They tend to overvalue the 20s thing.
Nearly 25% cumulative chance to IK most monsters every round, with unlimited uses, and no saving throw. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's pretty darn powerful.

If you look at my math above, you'll realize it is not. Also, it's not nearly 25% even if you get a full-attack. The chances of confirming the later iteratives are very small.


olePigeon wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Only people who isn't adept with maths like Vorpal. They tend to overvalue the 20s thing.
Nearly 25% cumulative chance to IK most monsters every round, with unlimited uses, and no saving throw. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's pretty darn powerful.

it is not. 25% per round means Roughly 68.3% in the span of 4 rounds. With in 4 full rounds with 24 attacks, you'll be decapitating a long dead corpse, just from the hp damage.

EDit: and that's not coubting confirnibg chances


Vorpal really is useless now. It was probably OP in 3.5, since any critical hit would do, but it is pretty poor now. No one in my group even considers it.

...That said, I think the ability, as it stands, is priced right.

Only because of the potential of it. Because, without any ability to stop it from anyone, a Vorpal weapon can end an encounter. It can create a victory for someone who never should have won. It can alter campaigns. It can even end campaigns.

And nothing else on the weapon table even comes close to that.


Could one use the Auspicious Mark Rage Power with a Vorpal Weapon to push his rolls to 20 and then cut people's heads of? Or will the +D6 push your roll above 20?


TheRedArmy wrote:
Vorpal really is useless now. It was probably OP in 3.5, since any critical hit would do, but it is pretty poor now. No one in my group even considers it.

Basic economics suggests that it's way overpriced. If no one wants it at the asking price, the price is too high.

Quote:

...That said, I think the ability, as it stands, is priced right.

Only because of the potential of it. Because, without any ability to stop it from anyone, a Vorpal weapon can end an encounter. It can create a victory for someone who never should have won. It can alter campaigns. It can even end campaigns.

And nothing else on the weapon table even comes close to that.

Seriously? Any save-or-die spell also can end an encounter, as a natural 1 on a saving throw is always a failure. Is Baleful Polymorph a campaign-ender?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
TheRedArmy wrote:
Vorpal really is useless now. It was probably OP in 3.5, since any critical hit would do, but it is pretty poor now. No one in my group even considers it.

Basic economics suggests that it's way overpriced. If no one wants it at the asking price, the price is too high.

Quote:

...That said, I think the ability, as it stands, is priced right.

Only because of the potential of it. Because, without any ability to stop it from anyone, a Vorpal weapon can end an encounter. It can create a victory for someone who never should have won. It can alter campaigns. It can even end campaigns.

And nothing else on the weapon table even comes close to that.

not only that, but a full attack of raw damage can end campaigns too. Specially of you take +5 holy swords instead of +1 vorpal

Seriously? Any save-or-die spell also can end an encounter, as a natural 1 on a saving throw is always a failure. Is Baleful Polymorph a campaign-ender?


I3igAl wrote:
Could one use the Auspicious Mark Rage Power with a Vorpal Weapon to push his rolls to 20 and then cut people's heads of? Or will the +D6 push your roll above 20?

I would say no, simply because Auspicious Mark adds a bonus to your roll, and a roll-with-a-bonus isn't a natural 20. Auspicious Mark is no different, in that regard, from flanking (which adds +2 to your attack roll). I don't think that Auspicious Mark would even act to improve a die roll into a critical threat, unless there's a FAQ or erratum that I'm not familiar with.


Drachasor wrote:
[MATH!!!]

Kudos for a great mathematical undertaking. Always liked you kinds of guys =)


TheRedArmy wrote:

Vorpal really is useless now. It was probably OP in 3.5, since any critical hit would do, but it is pretty poor now. No one in my group even considers it.

...That said, I think the ability, as it stands, is priced right.

Only because of the potential of it. Because, without any ability to stop it from anyone, a Vorpal weapon can end an encounter. It can create a victory for someone who never should have won. It can alter campaigns. It can even end campaigns.

And nothing else on the weapon table even comes close to that.

In 3.5 it also required a nat 20. I never playee 3.0 so I dont know if that allowed any crit or not..


I never liked vorpal because I don't want my BBEG's one-shotted, and seeing the PC's insta-killed without a save, or some type of setup such as an ability that requires the opponent to be unconscious first.

I don't ban it, at least not now, and barring me running an AP such as Slumbering Tsar that is made to kill players I wont use it until a player brings it into a game.


Vorpal should be IMHO either a Strong +3 or a weak +4. I would tend to go with +4 just to err on teh side of caution.

In 3.0 it was deadly and was worth more then +5.

In 3.0 it was any crit.

In 3.0 Keen and Improved Crit stacked.

So a fighter with Improved Crit and keen on a scimitar critted on a 12-20. If he took weappnmaster Prestige class he could crit on a 10 - 20 and behead on a 10-20.

3.5 very seriously nerfed Vorpal (which was needed) and now I do not consider it to be overpowered at all.


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Ughbash wrote:

Vorpal should be IMHO either a Strong +3 or a weak +4. I would tend to go with +4 just to err on teh side of caution.

In 3.0 it was deadly and was worth more then +5.

In 3.0 it was any crit.

In 3.0 Keen and Improved Crit stacked.

So a fighter with Improved Crit and keen on a scimitar critted on a 12-20. If he took weappnmaster Prestige class he could crit on a 10 - 20 and behead on a 10-20.

3.5 very seriously nerfed Vorpal (which was needed) and now I do not consider it to be overpowered at all.

so it went from 12-20 to only 20 (a 88.8% reduction), and you think it's worth +4?.

Dunno about you, but I'd NEVER buy a +1 vorpal over a plain +5


gustavo iglesias wrote:

it is not. 25% per round means Roughly 68.3% in the span of 4 rounds. With in 4 full rounds with 24 attacks, you'll be decapitating a long dead corpse, just from the hp damage.

EDit: and that's not coubting confirnibg chances

Well, assuming you bypass DR or any other resistances. Fair enough, so it doesn't go off as much as you like. It's still an unlimited use IK enchantment. In my opinion, anyway, that warrants a +5 enchantment.


Quote:
Well, assuming you bypass DR or any other resistances
sure that you do. Becouse instead of a puny +1 vorpal you have a +5 sword. Which by pass all metal and alignment DR
Quote:
In my opinion, anyway, that warrants a +5 enchantment.

have you bought it? Would you buy it?

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