The Mummy's Mask - Early 2014 Adventure Path Revealed


Mummy's Mask

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I would really like to see Castrovel and Akiton myself in an AP, campaign setting book, and/or module. The problem with doing this kind of stuff with a module is you don't get a several page article about the planet or a bestiary 4-6 creatures from that world.


Odraude wrote:
Saying "do it yourself" isn't exactly the best way to go about making modules. The whole point of making modules is to provide unique adventures in interesting locales. With that attitude, we'd never have APs like Jade Regent or Reign of Winter or Skull and Shackles, which try and push the envelope on what kind of settings and stories one can tell. So yes, I can do it myself and, in fact, am doing it myself. But I'd also like to see Paizo's take on it. Just like you can always do an Azlant adventure yourself, but probably want to see Paizo's take on it.

I do believe, however, that Jade Regent and Skull and Shackles were Golarion specific, and there are many, many other locales on Golarion they still have to play with before we need to go elsewhere. I'll probably never run Reign of Winter, so I barely looked at Book 4 on Triaxus because I've no interest in the place. It does give those out there who are interested in other planets more to work with, so that's good for them, I agree. If I'm really interested in other planets though, there are entirely new planets developed through various settings I could be looking into, such as Midgard, for instance, and that's also designed with the Pathfinder system. For Pathfinder, I'm more intrigued with Golarion, however, and would really like to see them concentrate more on Golarion, and less on Solar System surrounding it.

I am planning to incorporate a pretty heavy dose of Azlant into my Skull & Shackles AP when the time comes, actually, and I have far less to go on when it comes to Azlant than you do with Distant Worlds! You've got an entire campaign setting book on yours, while I have pieces of two adventures with Azlanti elements (one technically being very early Thassilon as opposed to Azlant, but there is cross-over there) and one 6-page entry in a CS book that talks about it (and again, more on a specific colony that went to explore it). So, while we hear Azlant's name being spoken a lot, we don't really have anything on the place compared to what people have on Distant Worlds, and Azlant is legitimate history for Golarion, the planet this setting is based on.

Thus the reason why I'd rather they spent more time working on Golarion specific material, as opposed to otherworldly places. There are key elements to the primary world that have barely been touched upon, yet distant worlds have already seen more play! Let's work on home, then scatter to the stars! ;)

Which is another reason why I appreciate how they're handling The Mummy's Mask. It's concentrating on Osirion and its history. We'll get more about the cultures of that region, more about its cities and landmarks. That's what I want more about!

If they'd like to explore the various worlds more, I'd actually prefer they did so in the occasional module (which gives you just as much adventure space now) and a little less in the APs.


Dragon78 wrote:
I would really like to see Castrovel and Akiton myself in an AP, campaign setting book, and/or module. The problem with doing this kind of stuff with a module is you don't get a several page article about the planet or a bestiary 4-6 creatures from that world.

I'm almost positive you've already got that several page article about the planet in that one book . . . oh, shoot, what's it called? Distant Worlds?

;)


First off those were only a few pages for each planet not several and I am very happy about the article on Triaxus and would like such articles for the other planets.


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Sub-Creator wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Saying "do it yourself" isn't exactly the best way to go about making modules. The whole point of making modules is to provide unique adventures in interesting locales. With that attitude, we'd never have APs like Jade Regent or Reign of Winter or Skull and Shackles, which try and push the envelope on what kind of settings and stories one can tell. So yes, I can do it myself and, in fact, am doing it myself. But I'd also like to see Paizo's take on it. Just like you can always do an Azlant adventure yourself, but probably want to see Paizo's take on it.

I do believe, however, that Jade Regent and Skull and Shackles were Golarion specific, and there are many, many other locales on Golarion they still have to play with before we need to go elsewhere. I'll probably never run Reign of Winter, so I barely looked at Book 4 on Triaxus because I've no interest in the place. It does give those out there who are interested in other planets more to work with, so that's good for them, I agree. If I'm really interested in other planets though, there are entirely new planets developed through various settings I could be looking into, such as Midgard, for instance, and that's also designed with the Pathfinder system. For Pathfinder, I'm more intrigued with Golarion, however, and would really like to see them concentrate more on Golarion, and less on Solar System surrounding it.

I am planning to incorporate a pretty heavy dose of Azlant into my Skull & Shackles AP when the time comes, actually, and I have far less to go on when it comes to Azlant than you do with Distant Worlds! You've got an entire campaign setting book on yours, while I have pieces of two adventures with Azlanti elements (one technically being very early Thassilon as opposed to Azlant, but there is cross-over there) and one 6-page entry in a CS book that talks about it (and again, more on a specific colony that went to explore it). So, while we hear Azlant's name being spoken a...

But you could apply that argument on any scale. The Golarion setting started with Varisia and there's still plenty to explore in Varisia. Why publish so much about the rest of the planet, when you still haven't fully explored Varisia?

Why go anywhere else?

Because it's neat. Because it's fun. Because people like different things. Because the other planets have had or could have effects on Golarion, even if your adventures don't go there.

For me, the setting includes the whole thing. Not just the little village where the adventure started. Not just the kingdom or the region that it takes place in. Not even just the planet it takes place on, but the worlds surrounding it and the other planes and dimensions that can influence it or be reached from it.
The focus stays closer to home. The farther reaches are sketched more lightly. Even the info on Azlant that you want more of, is far more than we have on any area/culture of similar scope off Golarion. With the possible exception of Triaxis, where we have an AP issue set and a short article on one part of the planet. You're comparing the info on Azlant to all the info on the Solar System apart from Golarion.


FYI...cannon says that Elves are from Castrovel, and that is where they retreated to during the Age of Darkness. So yep, Elves are aliens.

I think the Mummy's Mask sound interesting, and am looking forward to seeing how they pull off an entire AP with Egyptian themes. Granted I would love some Dominion of the Black, especially since even Distant Worlds contained barely any info on them. Plus I kind of think they might make a more original bad guy than another "ancient undead Tyrant comes back to usher in an age of Darkness". Assuming I have a job I will probably still keep a subscription

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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I've said this before several times... but I'll repeat it.

The lack of a Dominion of the Black plot in "Mummy's Mask" does not prevent us from doing a Dominion of the Black plot in an upcoming Adventure Path.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

@vikingson,

Having a cohesive story and aliens aren't mutually exclusive. You can have a well-done story that involves more "gonzo" things. Reign of Winter is a good example of this, especially looking at the ratings so far of the two off-planet adventures. Both have great plotlines and the adventures are well made. As for the classic nature of dungeon delving, that's YOUR opinion on dungeon delving being lazy. There are many people that love going through dungeons and find Tomb of Horrors and Rappan Athuk to be well-made classics that they enjoy playing. Not to mention that Shattered Star has very positive reviews and is much more than just simple dungeon delving. To be honest, considering how many people speak highly of those adventures and the ratings they get, I'd reckon to bet that you and your group are in the minority of hating them. And I daresay that people get an adventure not because they are classic, but because they want a good story that the players and GM can enjoy. I'd dare say that is how you actually get a classic.

Basically, what I'm getting from you is that you have an opinion about how adventures should be and any adventure that deviates from that, no matter how well written, is of poor quality to you and any person that wants to see something different is just a jaded, immature player. I get the feeling that you've never actually read these adventure paths (Shattered Star and Reign of Winter) and are simply making assumptions based on what you've heard and your own misconceptions. I'd suggest actually reading the adventures before judging them and belittling those that want something different from the standard. No one here is saying that weird is superior. In fact, if anything, you are the one that is putting down anything that deviates from the standard of fantasy. You are making assumptions about us that are clearly incorrect. That's like me saying that you're an unimaginative hack that only wants Tolkien copycats in his setting. That's probably not true and it is wrong of me to say, but that's pretty much what you're doing to those that want something different. So stop putting down people

Point is that the people that want off world adventures aren't looking for shoe-horned adventures. We are looking for well written adventures and stories that involve aliens, which is completely possible.

@Sub Creator

thejeff pretty much hit the head on the nail. Why should we ever detail anything in Golarion that isn't Varisia, when we haven't even exhausted that area? Azlant has been detailed before in the Inner Sea World Guide, so you have all the information right there! Quit being ungrateful and lazy and go do it yourself! ;)

Kidding aside. Yes, Distant Worlds gives us a small sample of the worlds that are in the solar system, just like the Inner Sea Guide gives a bit more info about Azlant. But people want more than that. We want more adventures (AP or modules) that take place off Golarion. And simply playing other systems (Traveller, WH40K) isn't good enough. And unlike you or vikingson, many of us believe that there is plenty of room for both classic adventures, detailing other areas on Golarion, and detailing other worlds. That's the good thing about Golarion, is that anything can really fit and fit well and there is room for everyone.


MMCJawa wrote:

FYI...cannon says that Elves are from Castrovel, and that is where they retreated to during the Age of Darkness. So yep, Elves are aliens.

I think the Mummy's Mask sound interesting, and am looking forward to seeing how they pull off an entire AP with Egyptian themes. Granted I would love some Dominion of the Black, especially since even Distant Worlds contained barely any info on them. Plus I kind of think they might make a more original bad guy than another "ancient undead Tyrant comes back to usher in an age of Darkness". Assuming I have a job I will probably still keep a subscription

OTOH, the Dominion are probably better kept as the weird mysterious badness out there kind of a thing. No matter how much I want to know more.

At least for now. Milk that aspect longer with the occasional hint or glimpse into the mystery before actually facing it in full view.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The thing that really bothers me is how people assume that because we want an alien module, we either A) only want Paizo to publish those and not traditional adventures, and B) want a shoe-horned, poorly done adventure. Just because we want something different doesn't mean we want it to be bad or the only thing Paizo publishes. I'd like to see a variety of modules, both traditional and gonzo, and I think Paizo does a good job at that while making them well written. Different doesn't automatically mean poorly done.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

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We've been all but promised a decent look in on the Dominion of the Black in July's upcoming module The Dragon's Demand.

I don't know if the mystery will be blown wide open, but the curtain will be parted. I don't have time for quotes or links, but I cite my source as James Jacobs, from his Q&A thread and many public chat room conversations. If I am wrong, he will correct me.

So, buy The Dragon's Demand, get your fix, and I am sure the topic will be revisited soon enough.

I have my own guesses as to their chief race/identity/whatever... And if you're a forum regular you should be able to narrow it down. If I'm right, they really don't jibe with Osirion any more than they jibe with ANYTHING.. because they're that alien.

I think folks instantly equate Dominion of the Black with Lovecraftian Mythos stuff and/or Nyarlathotep. That is an off-the-mark misconception.

All of this is speculation on my part, no direct knowledge.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm actually happy to hear that about the Dragon's Demand and I'll be picking it up when it comes out.


^^^

What Jim Groves said.

Plus, I have to wonder if James Jacobs' most recent post just a few above that might hint at something even more in-depth than what we might see in Dragon's Demand.

:)


Very glad to hear we've got another AP in Garund and very glad to hear that this take on Osirion will be less Erich von Daniken influenced. Aliens are all well and good, but I'll take my mummy curses straight up this time, please.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

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Cthulhudrew wrote:

^^^

What Jim Groves said.

Plus, I have to wonder if James Jacobs' most recent post just a few above that might hint at something even more in-depth than what we might see in Dragon's Demand.

:)

I'll do you one better, Cthulhudrew. If I was the Creative Director, I would think that I couldn't feature the Dominion of the Black in two back to back Adventure Paths. It would be like two drow AP's back to back, people would be ready for something new.

So I would reserve the Dominion of the Black for the AP where they would make the most sense.

To me, that is Numeria. Where there are robots, strange experiments, people being abducted by giant robotic scorpions, and a crashed starship. Where outer space and Distant Worlds is already the theme.

You can draw an Osirion connection, sure. But its not the best place to put a plot element like this. You want to reserve it where it can have maximum impact.

Again, no insider knowledge. I could be DEAD wrong. I'm just reading the forums and making guesses just like you folks at home, and I follow the scorecard.


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Yeah, between James' most recent post and his post a page or two back where he mentioned that just because they wouldn't be featuring a lot of aliens in this AP doesn't mean they won't show up at all in the AP line next year. . . I'm feeling pretty confident that us "sci-fi weirdos" may be getting a Numeria/Distant Worlds/Dominion AP as the August announcement. Fingers crossed.

That said, I'm very much loving how the release schedule is shaping up for early 2014. If there is one thing I love as much as well-done fantasy sci-fi or horror, it's fantasy done "ancient history meets pulp fiction"-style. I am very excited about the AP line finally going to Osirion and I'm glad they're not planning on over-saturating the themes in this AP. Now, if we could just get a Casmaron AP for 2015/2016 that features Ninshabur (I'm a sucker for Sumerian/Fertile Crescent myth aesthetic as much as Egyptian) I'd be set for life.

Also, Jim, congrats again for nabbing an AP spot on a phenomenal setting. First Baba Yaga's hut, and now this, you got into the AP freelance gig at the perfect time I must say. You must be feeling higher than a pesh addict about this.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I agree with Block Knight. Loving the line up. Even the Osirion AP, which I think will still be well written and fun to run.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

The Block Knight wrote:
Also, Jim, congrats again for nabbing an AP spot on a phenomenal setting. First Baba Yaga's hut, and now this, you got into the AP freelance gig at the perfect time I must say. You must be feeling higher than a pesh addict about this.

Thank you! I am happy.

But no more forum for me till tomorrow. I'm in the final stretch and I must resolve myself to focus. If I post again after this I encourage everyone to scream and throw virtual fruit at me.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jim Groves wrote:
The Block Knight wrote:
Also, Jim, congrats again for nabbing an AP spot on a phenomenal setting. First Baba Yaga's hut, and now this, you got into the AP freelance gig at the perfect time I must say. You must be feeling higher than a pesh addict about this.

Thank you! I am happy.

But no more forum for me till tomorrow. I'm in the final stretch and I must resolve myself to focus. If I post again after this I encourage everyone to scream and throw virtual fruit at me.

*Holds Virtual Rotten Tomato on standby.*

Silver Crusade

Odraude wrote:
I'm actually happy to hear that about the Dragon's Demand and I'll be picking it up when it comes out.

Monday!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Odraude wrote:
I'm actually happy to hear that about the Dragon's Demand and I'll be picking it up when it comes out.
Monday!

Alas I am not a subscriber, so I wait till the 24th. It's fine


Jim Groves wrote:

I'll do you one better, Cthulhudrew. If I was the Creative Director, I would think that I couldn't feature the Dominion of the Black in two back to back Adventure Paths. It would be like two drow AP's back to back, people would be ready for something new.

So I would reserve the Dominion of the Black for the AP where they would make the most sense.

To me, that is Numeria. Where there are robots, strange experiments, people being abducted by giant robotic scorpions, and a crashed starship. Where outer space and Distant Worlds is already the theme.

Oooh. Good call. I hadn't thought that they might try to tie the two together, but yeah, you might be onto something.

And even if not, you've got me hoping. And hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies. ;)


To echo Block Knight, I'd be pleased as punch if some kind of pulp-fiction style elements work their way into Mummy's Mask; I'd especially love it if the artwork reflected a sort of fantasy/pulp feel.

Where do we make requests of the art team? ;)


Jim Groves wrote:

We've been all but promised a decent look in on the Dominion of the Black in July's upcoming module The Dragon's Demand.

I don't know if the mystery will be blown wide open, but the curtain will be parted. I don't have time for quotes or links, but I cite my source as James Jacobs, from his Q&A thread and many public chat room conversations. If I am wrong, he will correct me.

So, buy The Dragon's Demand, get your fix, and I am sure the topic will be revisited soon enough.

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!

All this time I've been waiting for Paizo to finally give me a solid adventure where a dragon is the primary focus! Where a dragon gets his due!!! Only to find out this?!? It was a lie! A lie all along!!!

Why? WHY?!? You build me up only to tear me down . . .

Is nothing sacred to you people? What have you against the awesomeness of dragons that you refuse to let them shine?!?

/hangs head in discouragement

;)

Silver Crusade

Sub-Creator wrote:
Jim Groves wrote:

We've been all but promised a decent look in on the Dominion of the Black in July's upcoming module The Dragon's Demand.

I don't know if the mystery will be blown wide open, but the curtain will be parted. I don't have time for quotes or links, but I cite my source as James Jacobs, from his Q&A thread and many public chat room conversations. If I am wrong, he will correct me.

So, buy The Dragon's Demand, get your fix, and I am sure the topic will be revisited soon enough.

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!

All this time I've been waiting for Paizo to finally give me a solid adventure where a dragon is the primary focus! Where a dragon gets his due!!! Only to find out this?!? It was a lie! A lie all along!!!

Why? WHY?!? You build me up only to tear me down . . .

Is nothing sacred to you people? What have you against the awesomeness of dragons that you refuse to let them shine?!?

/hangs head in discouragement

Now seriously, let's

Sub-Creator wrote:
;)

Oh dammit you almost got me. 9/10


Looking at the catalog entry, the only thing that doesn't thrill me... is the logo. Is that the final version? Because it's remarkably bland by comparison to most of the others.

(I'm not fond of the Wrath of the Righteous logo-graphic either, but it at least looks finished by comparison.)


Richard Pett wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:

Pett is working on this one? That's good, my players could use some humility.

(Seriously, every time I run one of his adventures, a PC dies :D)

Only one?

Spoiler:
Well, in the most recent of your adventures, Xiavanshee completed her vampiric transormation. She betrayed the two PCs that survived Cadrilkasta, killing one and enslaving the other, which is arguably worse than death >:)
Quote:

I'm working on it right now in fact and its awesome fun, having a great time with Amber Scott designing some truly reprehensible villains. It's nasty, just nasty:)

Mnaaaaaaaaaar
Rich

:D

Added spoiler tag. --Jessica

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Looking at the catalog entry, the only thing that doesn't thrill me... is the logo. Is that the final version? Because it's remarkably bland by comparison to most of the others.

(I'm not fond of the Wrath of the Righteous logo-graphic either, but it at least looks finished by comparison.)

I'm 99% sure it, like the rest of the cover, is not the final version.

Grand Lodge

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I'm overjoyed to see 3 of my favourite adventure writers working on this path.
And I'm less familiar with the other 3, so I'm looking forward to getting 3 additional favourites.

Tho I will miss blaming Vaughan for the bad things that happen to the PCs. I guess I'll just blame Pett & Kortes for more than usual.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Scribbling Rambler wrote:

I'm overjoyed to see 3 of my favourite adventure writers working on this path.

And I'm less familiar with the other 3, so I'm looking forward to getting 3 additional favourites.

True class being demonstrated here.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I go absolutely bug-nuts crazy about non-Western adventures, so I am beside myself about Mummy's Mask! This will be the first AP I will buy as it comes out.


I'm very enthusiastic about this AP!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

When can we expect a Mummy's Mask sub-forum? How much before an AP's release have they opened sub-forums in the past? Or do they wait until the first installment is out?


I don't think the Wrath of the Righteous forum opened until the 2nd or 3rd installment of Reign of Winter, but I may be mistaken.

(EDIT: Crud. Was going to try and check timewise, but its possible that threads on WoR that were in the general forum were moved into the sub-forum after it was created.)


Odraude wrote:
I agree with Block Knight. Loving the line up. Even the Osirion AP, which I think will still be well written and fun to run.

I totally agree, and I'm pretty confidant with whatever the paizo team will do with this one.

After all they've already done a wonderful job with osirion until now.

On a personnal note, I look forward to this one impatiently: I'm closing my legacy of fire campaign in a few month and with a little work, it could be an excellent follow-up.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Looking at the art in the 2013-2014 Product Catalog (download from the schedule page), I have to say:

Woah! A mummified dragon?

Sovereign Court

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Looking at the art in the 2013-2014 Product Catalog (download from the schedule page), I have to say:

Woah! A mummified dragon?

That's old art which has been recycled.

The Exchange

GeraintElberion wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:

Looking at the art in the 2013-2014 Product Catalog (download from the schedule page), I have to say:

Woah! A mummified dragon?

That's old art which has been recycled.

Of course it's old, it's a mummified!


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Odraude wrote:

@vikingson,

Having a cohesive story and aliens aren't mutually exclusive. You can have a well-done story that involves more "gonzo" things. Reign of Winter is a good example of this, especially looking at the ratings so far of the two off-planet adventures. Both have great plotlines and the adventures are well made. As for the classic nature of dungeon delving, that's YOUR opinion on dungeon delving being lazy. There are many people that love going through dungeons and find Tomb of Horrors and Rappan Athuk to be well-made classics that they enjoy playing. Not to mention that Shattered Star has very positive reviews and is much more than just simple dungeon delving.

They are "lazy" in the sense of nothing much really needs to be done around them and they do regularly resolve in a pretty linear fashion. As opposed to an open-Sandbox, which is far harder to design access-wise to keep the players in level-appropriate areas. Dungeons are places where monsters for hacking can almost always be found.

Odraude wrote:


To be honest, considering how many people speak highly of those adventures and the ratings they get, I'd reckon to bet that you and your group are in the minority of hating them.

Lol, there is a proverb that millions of flies speak highly of fecal matter, which does NOT it make more appealing. Millions of people listen to weird types of music... you see my point ? Quantity - even if there allegedly is any, does not mean better. And even being in the minority has it's appeal... the world-wide minority can well be a local majority ?

There are hundreds of people who enjoy "Dungeonquest" "Heroquest" and/or "Descent" (and the many games akin to them)... but none of them are long- or mid-term roleplayers. But they will speak highly of the boardgame. There is IMHO no depth of story or ongoing plot to a dungeon, there is the tactical choice of killing, but very little interaction, no playing of a role and long-term investment into anything but a more optimized character ?
My experience I take from visiting half a dozen conventions a year, hanging around friendly local game stores for the last twenty years and partaking in games there, or sharing a quick drink. Maybe its a local thing. I don't consider that as a viable transregional scientific study.
But what exactly are you basing your assumptions on ?
Simply put, players playing Pathfinder and Co in a purely tactical way, commonly get kicked/turned away from groups I know, hear off, debate about in forums or run by more or less distant friends of mine after a short while. *shrug* "How was the game?" "Quite good, since our 'boardgamer'alchemist did not show up.". Duh....

Odraude wrote:


And I daresay that people get an adventure not because they are classic, but because they want a good story that the players and GM can enjoy. I'd dare say that is how you actually get a classic.

Players consider adventures classic because they recall them. Nobody I ever met finished Tomb of Horrors, but everyone remembers it. It has become a trope - and be it from other people's stories.

Bragging rights =/= classic

Odraude wrote:


Basically, what I'm getting from you is that you have an opinion about how adventures should be and any adventure that deviates from that, no matter how well written, is of poor quality to you and any person that wants to see something different is just a jaded, immature player.

I could say the same about you. Differing points of view. the problem being.. paizo's publishing schedule has lately diverged more to your interest of published adventure. While in "the beginning" they might have appealed far more to my take

And "jaded + immature" - sort of contradictory. Make up your mind ?

Odraude wrote:


I get the feeling that you've never actually read these adventure paths (Shattered Star and Reign of Winter) and are simply making assumptions based on what you've heard and your own misconceptions. I'd suggest actually reading the adventures before judging them and belittling those that want something different from the standard.

Sorry, I read them intensely but without much joy, partially because I had a bad accident in winter and was happy to have the PDF's on my tablet... although, since I cancelled my subscription on issue 3 of Reign of Winter, I have only had access to a friend's printed copies to read about it. "Rasputin must Die"... omg, yes I do have it on my desk at home.

But looking at the dungeons from Shattered Star ? We get to tromp around in the "Lady Liberty" of Varisia ? A dungeon with a circular gate and a tentacular entity crawling through that ? A dungeon that is actually a gateway to the Plateau of Leng (I actually enjoyed the concept, but not how it was drawn up in the end) ? Oh, and the island from under the sea rising up from the bottom of the Ocean ? Nothing really original or spell-binding... Basically Hollywood movie stuff.

Anyone believes one will be talking about those dungeons twenty-five years from now like... say about the Sphere of Annihilation in Tomb of Horrors ? the demi-Lich ? Or the "negative Elves" (ahem Drows)in the final ìnstallment of "Against the Giants" AP ?
I don't think so.

Odraude wrote:
No one here is saying that weird is superior. In fact, if anything, you are the one that is putting down anything that deviates from the standard of fantasy.

Oh right - Cthuluesque crossover's are staple fantasy^^ Same goes for pirates-fantasy mixture. Nevermind Edgar Rice Burrough taking us to different planets ? Epic Fantasy in the Tolkien or Greek Myth's style ? Usually the crossovers are done in some subtle way, keeping the world as is in balance through making the cross an extraordinary occurence (which also adds much to the entertainment and sense of the unknown).

What I don't like are cheap/crude mixture of stuff like "more xenomorphs vs. gunslinger/alchemists" in the japanese manga style, or crawling around a mega-sized dungeon just for the sake of it. That's kindergarten style. Yes some people enjoyed kindergarten^^ Just add something cool, from a totally different take of the world and intermix. Godzilla vs. Superman... blah.. Let's add some stats to compare....
Kaiju vs. Giant Mecha, with some Wormhole dynamics thrown in...ok, that works as a movie (and keeping the logic of disbelief in the OFF position^^), but as an ongoing campaign ? And stuff like "Rasputin must Die"... creates major problems in this vein (witness the threads about gun-proliferation in Golarion) . So does the entire "Let's Change the World's climate" of the Reign AP. Or creating a gateway to a different planet.

Basically, failing such an AP means either reworking the world or reseting the players' experiences with said world. I'd rather have a First World invasion aka Kingmaker... weird enough for most, fantastic, with a world running by entirely different means and laws

And I don't like people claiming I fight from a corner which fits their view of the world and particular interests while actually I come froma totally different angle. One of the cheapest rhetorical tricks ever. Almost insulting.


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You're pretty condescending there yourself, Vike. It's poor form to accuse someone of being "almost insulting" after spending an entire post badmouthing them and their interests. And don't say you didn't - blatant comparisons to dung heaps, comments like "no one will be talking about these in the future", and blanket comparisons of forumites to "that one guy who the game is always better cause he didn't show up" are designed to be insulting, and I don't think you oblivious enough not to know it.

Think it's time for both of you to step away from this conversation for a while and cool off. No one's going to convince the other that they're wrong or right here. People have different interests, simple as that. We've seen that view shared plenty here and now it's just devolved into petty pot-shots.


Some players work better with more linear campaigns. When given a sandbox option my group tends to dither and nothing gets done, tempers flare, and the players who dislike sandbox games generally don't have a good time. Besides, we only have so much time; GMs purchase the APs and modules because we don't have the time anymore to design and playtest a dungeon or homemade campaign and see if it's going to kill off the PCs or not.

Liberty's Edge

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vikingson wrote:

There are hundreds of people who enjoy "Dungeonquest" "Heroquest" and/or "Descent" (and the many games akin to them)... but none of them are long- or mid-term roleplayers. But they will speak highly of the boardgame.

So, according to your own words, I am not a long-term roleplayer... Really. WOW And here I thought playing since my preteen years would make me long-term. I have played numerous different games.

In other words, in this statement you are objectively wrong.

I am a long-term roleplayer. I play and enjoy Descent.


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vikingson wrote:
Lots of stuff.

Ooooh, I really want to respond to some of your statements, but that would just encourage the off-topic shenanigans which is something I generally try to avoid - especially when it's just going to bring down the positive (on-topic) discussion to a less fortunate level.

Instead, I'm going to recommend that such discussion be taken to another thread. While it's an interesting debate, it is starting to lose its relevancy to the thread.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Orthos wrote:

You're pretty condescending there yourself, Vike. It's poor form to accuse someone of being "almost insulting" after spending an entire post badmouthing them and their interests. And don't say you didn't - blatant comparisons to dung heaps, comments like "no one will be talking about these in the future", and blanket comparisons of forumites to "that one guy who the game is always better cause he didn't show up" are designed to be insulting, and I don't think you oblivious enough not to know it.

Think it's time for both of you to step away from this conversation for a while and cool off. No one's going to convince the other that they're wrong or right here. People have different interests, simple as that. We've seen that view shared plenty here and now it's just devolved into petty pot-shots.

Considering the day I posted that, I think I stepped away a looong time ago lol.


graywulfe wrote:


So, according to your own words, I am not a long-term roleplayer... Really. WOW And here I thought playing since my preteen years would make me long-term. I have played numerous different games.

In other words, in this statement you are objectively wrong.
I am a long-term roleplayer. I play and enjoy Descent.

yeah, but that is a one-sided causal deduction. The question should be - do you enjoy a boardgame dungeon crawl more than a decent roleplaying session ?

If yes, I may stand corrected


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I have been playing and GMing games since the late 80s. I enjoy BOTH massive roleplaying sessions... and boardgame dungeon crawls (Munchkin Quest and Zpocalypse).

I do believe your argument is invalid.


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I enjoy different things about them. Much like I enjoy card games and RPGs. Or TTRPGS and CRPGS. They are different things and fill different needs.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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In the 1990s, in addition to regular games of D&D and other systems, I played extensively in TSR's RPGA network, traveling all around the country to dozens and dozens of conventions. I literally played D&D with _thousands_ of people of all different types, from casual gamers to hard-core completists to guys who fell asleep 10 minutes into the adventure. And you know what I learned during that period?

Different people like different things.

Some people love tactical play like dungeon crawls. Some people would prefer to never leave the tavern, loving the play-acting element of the game and not really caring much at all about the rules or combat.

Most people fall somewhere in the middle, but even then they might have very different ideas about what's cool, about things like genre mixing, or about nearly every element of gaming.

Someone's personal taste does not make them stupid or immature simply because their taste differs from yours. It's certainly not a solid basis for slinging insults or getting bent out of shape about it.

Your tastes (or my tastes, for that matter) are no "better" than anyone else's. It's all subjective. Again, different people appreciate different things. That's simply human nature.

It's also human nature, or at least gamer nature, to minimize the value of those who disagree, or whose tastes are different from ours. We can say their preferences are immature, or stupid, or regressive, or whatever. It's all just internet posturing, really. Pointless internet posturing, at that.

Pathfinder has been around for nearly 80 volumes. Most of what we do lies in that sweet spot in the middle that appeals to the widest variety of gamers. A little dungeon crawling for the tactical-minded players, some cool roleplaying for the play-acting crowd. Most gamers don't draw the lines so distinctly, and appreciate a nice mix of different elements. Sometimes, as in the case of Rasputin Must Die or some of the big dungeons in Shattered Star, we'll nudge the pendulum a little further in one direction, hoping that some folks will really appreciate it. And since we usually do the extreme stuff relatively sparingly, at least those who don't care for extremes can be relatively sure that things will swing back to normal relatively shortly.

In 80 some issues, there are bound to be some Pathfinder adventures that swing out of your comfort zone a bit, or that simply don't appeal to you. That's natural, and it's true of all of us. You can't tailor a mass-market product to every potential customer all the time. It's just impossible.

On the other hand, if you've been checking out Pathfinder for 80 issues and can find nothing to like and only things to complain about, it's likely the case that the product simply isn't for you.

That doesn't make you objectively wrong, or stupid, or childish, or superior. It just means you like what you like, and there's no shame in that.

There are plenty of RPG products out there these days, so the good news is there's bound to be someone out there making products that match your personal tastes very closely. If Pathfinder doesn't fit the bill, I'm confident one of those other games will come closer to the mark.


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Culture changes and cross-seminates much more rapidly nowadays then back when Tomb of Horror and Against the Giants had just come out. In our day and age, most roleplayers are more aware of anime, urban horror/fantasy and genre crossover fiction than they were before. So it is not a big surprise to me that Paizo is exploring those avenues and skews their adventures more and more away from the traditional western medieval fantasy.

As far as linear or sandbox adventures go, I don't much care. My hope and expectation is always that a well-connected story and emotional attachments are the core of an AP, instead of a slant towards more and more combat encounters.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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We should have Gary build a macro or something that automatically reposts that post by you, Erik, whenever the topic comes up of "My way is the right way to play the game."

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