| 33 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a game where people come together to have fun, not a boot camp or boarding school where you are the headmaster. You've absolutely no right to punish anyone else for wanting to have fun in a way dissimilar from your own (anymore than they have a right to punish you for bringing the wrong kind of chip dip).
Get over yourself and grow up. Do something constructive, like talking to your players about the real problem. Don't place blame. Smile and communicate. This game is about having fun, and being punished isn't conducive towards having a good time.
I know some people say there's no way to "roleplay wrong," but that's not really true. If you punish your players AT ALL, EVER, for a perceived slight, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
How much arrogance must one have to think they have the right? 95% of the problems I see on this board can be overcome by acting like adults and communicating with one another. The other 5% of the problems are also easily resolved, by not inviting the problem back to future games. Punishing people only exacerbates the problem widens the already expansive social chasm between GM and player--reducing any chances that the actual problem will ever truly be resolved.
So stop acting like you're God, or the King at the table, or whatever else you envision yourself as, and start acting like the awesome GM they all hoped you'd be.
For the love of God, read the GameMastery Guide and take its advice to heart, audit the player's characters regularly, and talk to your players about any perceived problems you may be having. Trust me
/explosive Fourth of July rant
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rocks fall. Everyone dies.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then everyone leaves.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some of them tough it out and make new characters. The whiny ones leave.
This sounds like something that was escalating...or was it a you guys are annoying me...here's 10 behoders, good luck...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
People in abusive relationships have been known to do that, Shadowborn. That doesn't make it "right," or "okay."
Hazardous: This isn't coming from any one situation in my games. I've just supped too much on the tasteless punishment threads around here and needed to vent.
Have you tried asking your player to return it?
|
That's why I like rolls in the open.....helps keep it all honest and forthright. I don't nerf stuff but if sh!t hits the fan and something goes horribly wrong there will be a way out provided shortly thereafter....
Sometimes the dice are mean, sometimes the GM or the players screw up. It happens but it shouldn't be an attempt to punish someone for some perceived slight.
Some of them have briefcases full of characters in case of just such a scenario. Some of them like getting killed. Most of them wouldn't game that way if they weren't asking for it. Don't look at me like that. You want another rock? I've got a whole campaign world full of them.
What's the point of having so much ammo, Shadowborn, when you quickly run out of targets?
I prefer transparency too, Fake Healer.
Going to a holiday party with friends. Will have to pick this up later.
*sigh*
Look, here's a deal for you. I'll come out from under my bridge if you step down off your soapbox. Otherwise, I'm just gonna go pack up all my rocks and go hop my plane for Paizocon where there will be people that properly appreciate them.
|
| 17 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about:
To all the players out there who feel like they are being "Punished"...get over yourself.
Have you considered you are being "Punished" as a way of saying "Hey, what you are doing it making the game less fun for the rest of us, so maybe stop being so selfish"
Maybe the world, even the world of illusion, doesn't exist to serve you, specifically.
Maybe you aren't being "punished". Maybe you are being given a hint that what you are doing is annoying...
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about if we not bow down to the GM as though he were dictator as Ciretose treats him, nor do we go out of our way to make the GM's life suck because that's wrong too. I don't care about the reason, but everyone came to the table to have fun.
Anyways, yes, its awful when the GM goes out of his way to punish a player for something instead of talking about it. Resolve problems OOC, doing in character is just bad mojo all around and it doesn't really fix anything.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Granted, if they brought the wrong chip dip to the gaming night...ya, their going down.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The GM is the elected leader of the group, not a dictator.
The GM "rules" at the consent of the group.
If a player is being a jackass, and feels punished, the GM can't make him stay or play.
Now if a player actually really is a jackass, and therefore they must take this "punishment" because this is the only GM that will run for them because, you know they are a jackass...doesn't seem unfair to me.
If you feel punished playing a game for enjoyment, leave. If the GM is a jerk, don't let him run.
Or maybe, crazy as it sounds, the people at the table are trying to tell you that you are doing things that are annoying and they want you to stop because you are making the game less fun for them...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ciretose, you talk like the players are always the problem and the GM is always right forever and ever and has the final say, and then you bring that talk to one about how GMs go out of their way to punish players for small slights. No one said anything about players going out of their way to be annoying until you came in.
Its like walking in on a conversation about someone you don't know or see and yelling "They had it coming!"
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I talk like I personally don't let anyone GM for me who is a jackass, because I have lots and lots of options in life for things that are more fun than sitting at a table with someone who irritates me.
And on the rare occasion where I've found myself at tables where I didn't like how the GM ran, I just didn't game with those people anymore. We still hang out, but we don't game. I have a bunch of friends who play 4e, and I hang out with them all the time. But I don't like 4E, they do, so we don't game with each other.
And life goes on. They aren't "Punishing" me for not playing what I want, how I want it. They are having a good time doing something I wouldn't enjoy.
I started biking 22 miles at 7:00 am on Sundays with a buddy of mine to train for a three day 185 mile bike trip next month. Most of my friends would hate that. If they came along, and were miserable, would I be "Punishing" them.
Nope. They would be dumb to come do something they don't want to do, and it is not my job in life to always be doing things they want me to do with them.
I think there are a lot of people who act like victims and refugees on here because they don't get exactly what they want all the time from the GM. And frankly I think generally the reason they have so few game choices is good GMs don't want fun tables ruined by annoying players.
So if you as a player are unhappy, and everyone else isn't unhappy...who needs to adjust?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about:
To all the players out there who feel like they are being "Punished"...get over yourself.
Have you considered you are being "Punished" as a way of saying "Hey, what you are doing it making the game less fun for the rest of us, so maybe stop being so selfish"
Maybe the world, even the world of illusion, doesn't exist to serve you, specifically.
Maybe you aren't being "punished". Maybe you are being given a hint that what you are doing is annoying...
Why give a hint, when you can give clear communication?
And it does go both ways. EVERYONE has to be mature and friendly for it to work. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Why give a hint, when you can give clear communication?
And it does go both ways. EVERYONE has to be mature and friendly for it to work.
Ditto. I also really don't care how annoying the player is. You don't take it out on his character. You talk about it. I've actually had a few groups that outright refuse to talk about any problems. Slowly dissolved and crippled itself over the issues.
Sounds like someone had a bad play session. ^^
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stuff.
Could you be specific or are we only going to get the nebulous, vague angry version that leaves nothing to learn from?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stuff.Could you be specific or are we only going to get the nebulous, vague angry version that leaves nothing to learn from?
This.
Also, what is meant precisely by punishing? Is not allowing a character concept because it would be campaign-inappropriate punishing? Can I have examples?
|
When a player is continuously caught cheating, it us not punishi.g them to regularly audit them, even if doing so much more often than other players who have not been audited as often since they rarely have been found cheating. When a player cannot get it right, they need to prove themselves with more commonly known options that we can tell right away are being used correctly before beng given full reign to use anything from anywhere and usually getting it wrong, or in other words, cheating.
How people react to the general statement made by RD is VERY telling.
Unless of course some people are reacting simply to yank his chain...
"...what is meant precisely by punishing?"
That's going to depend on the player (s), dm, game, etc. For me, it was the 'dm' blatantly cheating on rulings, giving me 6 seconds for my turn after giving another 23+ minutes, lieing about my encumbrance to the other players (with me not there) and not apologizing when found to be wrong, saying that there was no way I could have a 30 AC wearing MSL (actually 31), beating certain players over the head as metagaming by quickly determining the AC by die rolls, being told I couldn't know the DC of a magical trap (25 + spell level, right?) because I wasn't a mage (L7 Rogue), and I could go on, as I am extremely hard to rile. Three other players had already been raked over the coals in previous weeks, one only staying due to marriage vows...literally!
Ciretose, the unfortunate truth is that this being a social game, a bad actor in any position can ruin a groups 'fung shway' (yea, I know its misspelled.). It is also a sad truth that most groups are short on potential players and letting someone 'dog in the manger' the GM chair is a bad thing. I know that places like Dallas have literally hundreds of potential players, but Tupelo and Reno are short that luxury. Allowing one person that wants to be an a** to poison the water destroys the rarest of resources gamers have: a pool of other gamers.
Punishment, in my mind at least, is the GM taking some negative action against a player (or their character) as a reaction of some kind, with no intent of said action improving the game for anyone. Same could be said in reverse (a player could attempt to punish his GM in some way).
A GM saying summoners are not allowed at the start of a a game because they are not appropriate to the campaign is NOT a punishment. Feeling that the summoner is overpowered and having the summoner's summon spell-like ability no longer function mid-campaign IS.
Asking a player of a powerful character to tone it back some so that the other players can have some limelight in the action is NOT a punishment. Contriving a situation where ONLY the powerful PC is hopelessly screwed, IS.
There's certainly a bit of gray area to be sure. For example, a GM creating a pseudo contrived situation to challenge the above powerful character may well be a punishment, or it could be nothing at all. When in doubt, ask if everyone is having fun.
I hope that helps.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only thing a DM has a right to punish his players for is:
Playing on their device, not paying attention so that they aren't ready when their turn comes up.
Not bringing snacks. ;-)
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some players don't appreciate being kicked in the face for wearing a shirt I don't like. But that doesn't mean it's wrong for me to kick them in the face for wearing a shirt I don't like; it's just a playstyle difference, and really, isn't it the player's fault for joining my game in the first place? Besides, punishing the player for wearing a shirt I don't like can act as a hint that I don't like their shirt, and if understanding that they were wrong and changing their shirt isn't their reaction to being kicked in the face then maybe they're just whiny crybabies who don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around them. And if I don't kick them in the face, how will they ever learn to wear shirts that I like? Really I'm trying to help them even if they don't appreciate that. Also I like kicking people in the face.
This is a game where people come together to have fun, not a boot camp or boarding school where you are the headmaster. You've absolutely no right to punish anyone else for wanting to have fun in a way dissimilar from your own (anymore than they have a right to punish you for bringing the wrong kind of chip dip).
Get over yourself and grow up. Do something constructive, like talking to your players about the real problem. Don't place blame. Smile and communicate. This game is about having fun, and being punished isn't conducive towards having a good time.
I know some people say there's no way to "roleplay wrong," but that's not really true. If you punish your players AT ALL, EVER, for a perceived slight, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
How much arrogance must one have to think they have the right? 95% of the problems I see on this board can be overcome by acting like adults and communicating with one another. The other 5% of the problems are also easily resolved, by not inviting the problem back to future games. Punishing people only exacerbates the problem widens the already expansive social chasm between GM and player--reducing any chances that the actual problem will ever truly be resolved.
So stop acting like you're God, or the King at the table, or whatever else you envision yourself as, and start acting like the awesome GM they all hoped you'd be.
For the love of God, read the GameMastery Guide and take its advice to heart, audit the player's characters regularly, and talk to your players about any perceived problems you may be having. Trust me
/explosive Fourth of July rant
You need to be more specific. Maybe the GM does not feel like he/she is punishing anyone.
I agree with the sentiment of your original post, RD, but so you know it probably seems to many people that you are telling them they are doing something wrong.
:)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the rant was aimed at someone in particular though, you might want to talk it out with them.
=P
You're not supposed to talk anything out with anyone, you're just supposed to be a passive-aggressive jerk and "hint" at them. You must be new here.
I know some people say there's no way to "roleplay wrong," but that's not really true. If you punish your players AT ALL, EVER, for a perceived slight, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.If your players stubbornly spoil everybody else's fun with their behavior, even after being repeatedly asked to stop, THEY'RE DOING IT WRONG. And the GM should take appropriate action.
Of course, this is hopefully something you work out as people and not in game right?
Punishment, in my mind at least, is the GM taking some negative action against a player (or their character) as a reaction of some kind, with no intent of said action improving the game for anyone.
Like letting a player's cohort attempt a craft wondrous item with at 80%+ chance of being cursed and no chance whatsoever of succeeding?
I prefer transparency too
Why give a hint, when you can give clear communication?
Like asking that player, "Are you sure?" instead of informing them that what they are trying will not work and will likely turn out poorly?
It that the kind of thing you are talking about when you tell people not to punish their players?
|
|
You're not supposed to talk anything out with anyone, you're just supposed to be a passive-aggressive jerk and "hint" at them. You must be new here.If the rant was aimed at someone in particular though, you might want to talk it out with them.
=P
And you aren't supposed to try to adapt to the table or pick a GM who suits your play style.
Instead it is your god given right to expect everyone to accommodate you.
This works great in a 5 person game with each person expecting everyone else to bend. No chance of conflict there...
Punishment, in my mind at least, is the GM taking some negative action against a player (or their character) as a reaction of some kind, with no intent of said action improving the game for anyone.Like letting a player's cohort attempt a craft wondrous item with at 80%+ chance of being cursed and no chance whatsoever of succeeding?
I prefer transparency tooWhy give a hint, when you can give clear communication?Like asking that player, "Are you sure?" instead of informing them that what they are trying will not work and will likely turn out poorly?
It that the kind of thing you are talking about when you tell people not to punish their players?
I never claimed to be perfect, or even a good role model. At least I try to make amends for my mistakes (as I did with the one you allude to).