|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Two nights ago I played My Enemy's Enemy. Around an hour after we started (but before the first combat), a sixth player who had apparently reserved a spot at the table showed up and joined us as a second-level monk. As you may know, the tier for this scenario is 3-7. Even though it had no impact on me personally, I objected to letting him play because his character's level was too low. This led to a heated argument between myself and another player at the table about whether it was actually against the rules (and if so, whether the GM can override it). Eventually the player in question agreed to run a fourth-level pregen and the game resumed.
While there didn't seem to be any hard feelings after the fact, the aforementioned other player told me that he felt I was focusing too much on the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit. If this were a home game I wouldn't be as opposed to bending the rules (since the ultimate goal is to make sure everyone has fun), but in an organized setting like PFS I can't help but feel that the rules are there for a reason and should be followed to the letter. Am I in the right here, or do I need to calm down?
Wouldn't be valid if he did play if I know my rules right. I don't know what the spirit of play is here, but that's not a rule you can bend for that reason.
I don't really think that qualifies as rules lawyering, but I wasn't there and have no idea how people acted or what was said. Now if you spent a half hour arguing how trapfinding works because there's a small rule in your favor that you just happen to know the DM disagrees with... then we have a problem probably.
|
|
You may not play out of tier.
This is not a rule that can be bent.
You were right to object.
The Spirit of this rule is the same as the Letter. You can't do it.
I see that, but is it any of my business (especially when I'm not the GM) whether someone is playing out of tier? That was another point of discussion as I was the only one at the table who objected to letting the monk play and the GM was prepared to let it slide.
|
Well, I have GM'd for you in the past M. Laakso, and from what I have read here you did the correct thing, I would want you to do the same for me if I were GMing. As a society GM I know we have tiers for a reason and we are expected to play by the campaigns rules while in an organized play environment. What you did, does not make you a rules lawyer. You were most definitely in the right, but what are you still so riled up about? The player switched to a pregen and the game concluded, that would have been a good time to calm down. If you feel that the GM in question will willingly break the rules again in the future bring up your concerns with the local VC's or VL's or even the campaign coordinator.
|
|
You were most definitely in the right, but what are you still so riled up about? The player switched to a pregen and the game concluded, that would have been a good time to calm down.
I guess there's really no reason for me to still be riled up about it. I worry too much about what other people think of me and don't want to get a reputation of being a jerk.
Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I'm asking if I should calm down about things that are against the rules and just go with it. The fact that the guy wanted to play out of tier stopped irritating me as soon as we got him a pregen and continued the game.
I see that, but is it any of my business (especially when I'm not the GM) whether someone is playing out of tier? That was another point of discussion as I was the only one at the table who objected to letting the monk play and the GM was prepared to let it slide.
We had a table have their entire session revoked because someone played out of tier in my area a little while ago actually. Yes, it is your business.
|
|
Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I'm asking if I should calm down about things that are against the rules and just go with it. The fact that the guy wanted to play out of tier stopped irritating me as soon as we got him a pregen and continued the game.
If rules are being broken: speak up. If you don't say something about it you are part of the bigger problem. I commend you, because who wants a table revoked.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see that, but is it any of my business (especially when I'm not the GM) whether someone is playing out of tier? That was another point of discussion as I was the only one at the table who objected to letting the monk play and the GM was prepared to let it slide.
Is it any of your business if the Monopoly banker is taking extra money?
Is it any of your business if one of your teammates in the Lord of the Rings LCG is running an illegal deck?
Is it any of your business if your uncle at the family reunion is totaling all his Yahtzee dice instead of just the 4s he's scoring them for?
In pretty much every non-RPG social/group game ever, everyone assumes that everybody's playing by an established set of rules (even if they're house rules), and if someone goofs, anyone is allowed to catch it, and everyone just goes "Oh, right" and moves on (or if there's a disagreement, they just take 60 seconds and look it up).
Catching and correcting rules violations is a normal social behavior that everyone does without a second thought in every non-RPG tabletop game without any hard feelings or anyone feeling like or getting accused of being a jerk. In fact, it's vital to everyone having fun.
Make it an RPG, though, and all of a sudden this normal social behavior is actively discouraged and makes people wonder if the person speaking up has forgotten that they're playing a game for fun. If someone responded like that when getting corrected on how many cards to flip in a team game of Pandemic or Forbidden Island or Rune Age: Cataclysm, everyone would stare at them in stunned disbelief.
There's nothing wrong with correcting a friend's mistake in a game. Doing so enables fun for millions of people all over the world every day.
|
|
We had a table have their entire session revoked because someone played out of tier in my area a little while ago actually. Yes, it is your business.
There you have it, M. Laakso. Just tell people that the next time it comes up. (And possibly email the people who were at the table if you're still feeling embarrassed.)
|
This is also why it is important to at the very least advertise the scenario you are running (and its tier) so that when folks sign up to play, they know what level character to bring.
If someone signs up without an in-tier character (and they know better), that really is their fault, and they can play a pregen.
If its a new player, then hopefully the event host is able to catch it before it becomes an issue on game day, and can help them figure out what they want to do (try a pregen, or come to a game day with a tier-appropriate scenario).
I've seen some event coordinators go so far as to change the scenario or open up a 2nd or 3rd table for RSVPs with a lower level scenario.
The player trying to play out of tier was sad that he couldn't play his guy, but things like that contribute to the wealth by level problems that are occurring.
Yeah, it always sucks when you can't play, and not everyone gets excited to play the pregens. I'd imagine he really wanted to play at the table that night, sometimes you go out of your way to make it.
It doesn't actually contribute to the WBL problems sometimes happening. You get to play a pregen and get the gold your supposed to get at that level, and you can't play a level 1 in a 7-12 game anyway.(Though that level one would be rich enough to retire if he could...)
|
The player trying to play out of tier was sad that he couldn't play his guy, but things like that contribute to the wealth by level problems that are occurring.Yeah, it always sucks when you can't play, and not everyone gets excited to play the pregens. I'd imagine he really wanted to play at the table that night, sometimes you go out of your way to make it.
It doesn't actually contribute to the WBL problems sometimes happening. You get to play a pregen and get the gold your supposed to get at that level, and you can't play a level 1 in a 7-12 game anyway.(Though that level one would be rich enough to retire if he could...)
a level 1 or 2 playing a 3-4 is beyond the scope of their wealth. Not as big as level 1's playing 4-5 constantly, but it's still bad.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You want rules lawyer? Here's the rule that got me fired up: If you show up an hour late you don't get to play. Why the hell was this guy sat in the first place?
As to the 2nd level PC in a 3-7 game: nope. You were 100% correct. There is a very long thread debating the merits of playing up and the extra gold that comes with it. The idea of hopping tiers would blow that debate up into truly epic proportions. Stick to your principle, and continue to be vocal about it.
|
|
@MrSin: I think Benrislove was talking about people playing out of tier, not people playing pregens in tier.
@M. Laakso: It's everyone's business to ensure the campaign rules are being followed. PFS GMs cannot make arbitrary decisions about campaign rules, regardless of their personal feelings. If a feat is banned from play, a PFS GM cannot tell a player that they may use it while sitting at that GM's table. Similarly, a PFS GM may not permit an out of tier character to participate in a sanctioned scenario.
There are places where PFS GMs have leeway and are expected to exercise their best judgement, but out of tier characters is not one of those areas. You were correct to object and to support the campaign rules.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You want rules lawyer? Here's the rule that got me fired up: If you show up an hour late you don't get to play. Why the hell was this guy sat in the first place?
+1
Being that late, I dont care when you reserved your spot. Too late to sit.
As to the 2nd level PC in a 3-7 game: nope. You were 100% correct. There is a very long thread debating the merits of playing up and the extra gold that comes with it. The idea of hopping tiers would blow that debate up into truly epic proportions. Stick to your principle, and continue to be vocal about it.
+1
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure what you said when you objected. Did you say you can't play? Or did you point out he should use a pregen so he plays in tier? Many people would object to the first but accept the second.
If I was at such a table, I would not kick in a single copper if the under tier player needed a raise dead, or something similar. Of course I have been known not to kick in for correct tier players when they s foolish stuff, usually, nobody else chips in then either.
I have struggled a bit with rules lawyering myself. I use to be right 95% of the time back in Living Greyhawk when I called people out. Not nearly so much after going through both the Pathfinder Beta playtest and final rules changed so many things. What I now try to do is not comment unless I know I checked the current edition(not beta playtest). When a ruleslawyer is wrong several times, he loses the title of ruleslawyer and becomes a disruptive player, people should encourage him to stop being disruptive. When they are consistently right almost every time, they deserve to be respected, if they are not respected in that case, the problem lies in the people who not recognising the accuracy of the ruleslawyer.
You also sometimes need to let something slide one week so you do not slow Down the game too much, especially in PFS because of tight time slots. Point it out to them next game.
The worst part of all is that I found people are incapable of being publicly criticized multiple times for their own incompetence. Meanwhile, if you tell them privately, other players see the cheating, think it is effective and show up next week with a new cheating character.
|
|
You want rules lawyer? Here's the rule that got me fired up: If you show up an hour late you don't get to play. Why the hell was this guy sat in the first place?
I wasn't too keen on this either. Apparently he's a single father and couldn't get to the store on time, plus I can't find anything in the rules about late arrivals. I've seen other GMs let people jump in like this before, but if it were up to me I probably would have turned him away unless he cleared it with a coordinator.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You want rules lawyer? Here's the rule that got me fired up: If you show up an hour late you don't get to play. Why the hell was this guy sat in the first place?I wasn't too keen on this either. Apparently he's a single father and couldn't get to the store on time, plus I can't find anything in the rules about late arrivals. I've seen other GMs let people jump in like this before, but if it were up to me I probably would have turned him away unless he cleared it with a coordinator.
The rule is based purely on respect for your fellow members of society. I'll bet everything I have that he's never late for the following things: drinking night with his buddy, a date with an attractive prospect, his kid's birthday party, his kid's soccer game, or a meeting with his coworkers. If he is, he will suffer the consequences. Not because it's in the "rule book" for those things, but because society hates tardiness for a reason: it screws up others people's plans.
No one is late to the games that I coordinate. They aren't late because if they ever are, I don't seat them. Instead, I'll seat the people who are on time and waiting for the chance to play at one of the tables they covet. If the jerk in line ahead of them doesn't care enough to show up, I'll give his seat to someone who does. And I'll do it with a smile and a, "Thank you for being here. Enjoy the game."
|
|
@M. Laakso: Not only were you correct, but you probably saved that PC's life.
A L2 Monk is going to have 13 + 2xCon Mod hit points. As Monks tend to be MAD, let's give the benefit of the doubt and say +2, for a total of 17 hit points.
Reflex save is +3 + Dex Mod, say +3 if you want to push it, for a +6 Reflex save.
He will have Evasion, barely, so if he saves, he is fine, but if he fails....
Sub-tier 3-4 means up to a potentially Level 8 opponent. Say Sorcerer, with Fireball (we'll ignore the ugliness of some of the mods which have Magi at the same tier.), so an 8d6 FIreball. Average damage, discounting Empowered, would be 28 points.
Reflex DC would be 10 +3 (Spell level) +3 (Cha mod, minimum possible), so DC 16, for about a 55% save chance. That is without spell focus, improved spell focus, or a headband of primary stat, just the base NPC 15 +2 for 4th and 8th levels...
So, -11, with 3 rounds before the Monk dies. That is assuming the Mionk has not taken any other damage, and the Fireball is not Empowered, which is possible, since the Sorcerer or Wizard would have 4th level slots available...
So, fried Monk, anyone?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm reviving a topic that has been idle for several days, but with good reason. For anyone else in the future who may worry about this sort of thing, there's an excellent response you can use:
"It is every player's job to maintain the integrity and consistency of the game state if they are certain there is something wrong."
How explicitly clear this is made to the player varies by game and venue, but it is true. I know some WotC games had articles issued where they outright and specifically told the reader it is their responsibility. They even indicated you are to point out rules issues even if letting it go unmentioned is favorable to a player or party. Wish I could find those articles because they were pretty good references on this topic.
Nonetheless, it's not the player being 'a jerk.' They're doing what the game developers outright require of them. Anyone who gets after someone for insisting on adherence to an unambiguous, common, and important rule (playing out-of-tier can not only cause Session Revocation as mentioned above, but it can easily result in a domino-effect-of-PC-deaths situation) is out of line. Don't get bullied into doing the wrong thing.
The GM is not the only person tasked with ensuring game state integrity. They're the near-final arbiter (excepting VC escalations) of the game state, but everyone else is expected to contribute to this goal as well. If the game state is wrong then you speak up, even if being quiet would benefit a PC or the party as a whole. It's the right thing to do.
