Sneak attack damage


Rules Questions


Hi all, new to the game, and enjoying it so far. Our group had a question about sneak attack damage. Do rogues get sneak attack when the opponent has abilities that prevent him from being flat-footed like the Defensive Strategist trait or Uncanny Dodge feat?


Sneak Attack:
Rogue wrote:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Uncanny Dodge:
Uncanny Dodge wrote:
She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

You get sneak attack whenever the conditions for it are met. If someone has Uncanny Dodge, you can still get sneak attack against them by flanking or immobilizing them, or feinting. (If they have Improved Uncanny Dodge, flanking won't work.)

Silver Crusade

There are three conditions listed in sneak attack as to when to apply the extra damage.

When the target is denied their dexterity bonus, when the striker is flanking the target and when the target is 'unaware' of the striker.

In the case of Defensive Strategist - if the only condition met is the denial of the dex bonus (ala flat-footed) then yes, it would prevent the sneak attack damage. If there are other applicable conditions (unaware, flanking) then they can still apply it.

Same with Uncanny Dodge.


To clarify, being unaware doesn't actually make a person a valid target on sneak attack on its own. Usually when someone is unaware of an opponent that person is denied its dex against the enemy. (For example a rogue attacking a 3rd level barbarian with Uncanny Dodge will not get to sneak attack even if he is invisble or using stealth because Uncanny Dodge prevents them from being flat-footed, or lossing their dex to AC even if the character is invisible.)

As sneak attack says and was posted earlier, you can only Sneak Attack when flanking, the opponent is denied their dexterity to AC, or fienting (which is just a special action that denies the enemy their dexterity to AC).

So Uncanny Dodge will prevents most of the ways that allow for a rogue to pull off sneak attack. If you can get flanking and the enemy only has Uncanny Dodge then it will work. But remember, most people with Uncanny Dodge will also have Improved Uncanny Dodge at high enough level (usually 5th) which denies flanking as well.


Although the feature hasn't been altered since the recent stealth errata, my assumption would be that Uncanny Dodge should now read something like:

Uncanny Dodge wrote:
She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible or has beaten her on an opposed Perception vs. Stealth check. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

[edit]

Although given that Feint still can deny DEX bonus, perhaps that isn't true. It would be odd if the invisible condition was countered by Uncanny Dodge but stealth 'concealment' was not...


To Xaratherus, I wasn't going to open that can of worms at all and invite the hordes of damage hungry rogues who will try to assert now that Uncanny Dodge doesn't deny a stealthed rogue sneak attack but would deny an invisible rogue such.

To believe that being invisible is somehow more counterable than being merely hidden is incredibly silly.


Claxon wrote:

To Xaratherus, I wasn't going to open that can of worms at all and invite the hordes of damage hungry rogues who will try to assert now that Uncanny Dodge doesn't deny a stealthed rogue sneak attack but would deny an invisible rogue such.

To believe that being invisible is somehow more counterable than being merely hidden is incredibly silly.

I'm going fishing this weekend, so I could use the worms. I might actually make a separate FAQ post on it. ;)

And yes, I agree - it would be incredibly silly for it to counter invisibility but not stealth.


Claxon wrote:

To Xaratherus, I wasn't going to open that can of worms at all and invite the hordes of damage hungry rogues who will try to assert now that Uncanny Dodge doesn't deny a stealthed rogue sneak attack but would deny an invisible rogue such.

To believe that being invisible is somehow more counterable than being merely hidden is incredibly silly.

Just being invisible is more easily countered then stealth. Detect invisible and invisibility purge work on Invis but not on stealth. Which is why smart rogues still sneak when they are invisible.


Claxon wrote:

To clarify, being unaware doesn't actually make a person a valid target on sneak attack on its own. Usually when someone is unaware of an opponent that person is denied its dex against the enemy. (For example a rogue attacking a 3rd level barbarian with Uncanny Dodge will not get to sneak attack even if he is invisble or using stealth because Uncanny Dodge prevents them from being flat-footed, or lossing their dex to AC even if the character is invisible.)

I don't see where Defensive Strategist mentions invisibility. So, if the opponent only has the Defensive Strategist trait, and the rogue is invisible, the rogue gets sneak attack?


Defensive Strategist wrote:
Benefit: You are not flat-footed when you are an unaware combatant. This includes a surprise round that you don’t get to act in, and before you get to act at the start of a battle.

There's an implicit "only" in there -- it only causes you to not be flat-footed a) before you've acted in battle, and b) for a surprise round when you don't get to act.


I see, so after the opponent acts, the rogue would get SA.


subnet_rx wrote:
Claxon wrote:

To clarify, being unaware doesn't actually make a person a valid target on sneak attack on its own. Usually when someone is unaware of an opponent that person is denied its dex against the enemy. (For example a rogue attacking a 3rd level barbarian with Uncanny Dodge will not get to sneak attack even if he is invisble or using stealth because Uncanny Dodge prevents them from being flat-footed, or lossing their dex to AC even if the character is invisible.)

I don't see where Defensive Strategist mentions invisibility. So, if the opponent only has the Defensive Strategist trait, and the rogue is invisible, the rogue gets sneak attack?

Yes, Defesnive Strategist only helps to alieviate the flat-footed portion that would allow Sneak Attack. An Invisible Rogue against an enemy with only Defensive Strategist would denies his enemy their Dex to AC which allows for a sneak attack.

subnet_rx wrote:
I see, so after the opponent acts, the rogue would get SA.

No, not quite. Normally a rogue could sneak attack someone in a surprise round or at the start of combat before their first turn because they are flat-footed (this is a specific condition). Both Defensive Strategist and Uncanny Dodge deny this outright. After the first round the rogue must deny someone their dex to AC, successfully feint, or flank an enemy to get a Sneak Attack. Normally, Stealth or Invisibility are the easiest ways to deny someone their Dex to AC, but it doesn't work on someone with Uncanny Dodge, so you would have to flank or feint. Against someone with Improved Uncanny Dodge they cannot be flanked (unless by a rogue 4 levels greater) and then the only method of sneak attack would be feinting.


Claxon wrote:
To believe that being invisible is somehow more counterable than being merely hidden is incredibly silly.

Invisibility is much weaker than Stealth. It does not conceal sound, vibration, smell, leaving tracks, displacing water, etc. etc.

Is believable to me that I can sense the inviso mouth breather over there but might not be able to detect the silently slinking from shadow to shadow.


Uncanny Dodge is supposed to allow you to react to things you cannot percieve, which mechanically used to only mean invsibility. Now it should include stealth because stealth can now deny an enemy its dex to AC, which it could not do before the recent errata. Common sense says it applies to both, but as I predicted, people have already rode in to try and say that you can use stealth to sneak attack somone with Uncanny Dodge by being stealthed.


njharman wrote:
Claxon wrote:
To believe that being invisible is somehow more counterable than being merely hidden is incredibly silly.

Invisibility is much weaker than Stealth. It does not conceal sound, vibration, smell, leaving tracks, displacing water, etc. etc.

In all fairness stealth does not conceal smell (scent detects it automtically in range), vibration (tremorsense detects it automatically in range and touching ground), leaving tracks (survival can still track it) and a number of other things.

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