Cost for a Witch to Teach a Familiar from a Scroll in PFS Play.


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge 4/5

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Is there a cost for a witch to teach his/her familiar a spell from a scroll found in PFS play or do they just need to make the appropriate Spellcraft check?

Shadow Lodge

There is no cost, but it does take one hour per spell level, and if you fail the Spellcraft check, the scroll is still destroyed.

That said, witches can pay to get another witch's familiar to teach them the spell, just as a wizard can pay to access another wizard's spellbook; the cost is half the cost for a wizard to scribe a spell of that level.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I find this whole subject terribly confusing; there's so many different ways to transcribe spells and there's always the question of whether it can be done for free during a scenario for each situation.

I'm FAQ'ing this, though a great rules lawyer player might be able to write up a short guide on it.

Can you really find a scroll in a scenario and then spend hours adding it to a familiar for free?

1/5

Avatar-1 wrote:

I find this whole subject terribly confusing; there's so many different ways to transcribe spells and there's always the question of whether it can be done for free during a scenario for each situation.

I'm FAQ'ing this, though a great rules lawyer player might be able to write up a short guide on it.

Can you really find a scroll in a scenario and then spend hours adding it to a familiar for free?

Wizards can scribe scrolls they find during a scenario. Why would Witches be any different?

Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play wrote:
Note: You may use any item that you find during the scenario for free until the end of the scenario, but you must purchase the item when the scenario is over in order for your character to be able to continue to use the item. This rule is most applicable to consumables such as potions, scrolls, and so on, but also applies to weapons, magic items, and so on.
Witch's Familiar wrote:
Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Ah, I missed that line in the PFS guide; that does answer the question.

Grand Lodge 5/5

SCPRedMage wrote:

There is no cost, but it does take one hour per spell level, and if you fail the Spellcraft check, the scroll is still destroyed.

That said, witches can pay to get another witch's familiar to teach them the spell, just as a wizard can pay to access another wizard's spellbook; the cost is half the cost for a wizard to scribe a spell of that level.

Do you have a source for that. A player asked about it and the only thing I could find mentioned wizards and spellbooks.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Is there definite support for the idea of a witch having her familiar learn from another familiar the same way wizards do from a spellbook spellbook now?

Shadow Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Hawkwen Agricola wrote:
Do you have a source for that. A player asked about it and the only thing I could find mentioned wizards and spellbooks.

Took me a bit to dig the thread up, but it was brought up when the FAQ was updated to allow wizards to copy from NPC spellbooks for half scribing cost.

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
One more question Mike. Witches unfortunately are unable to learn from spellbooks; rather, their third method for learning is to have their familiar commune with another witch's familiar. Is this an avenue available to them for spellbook-sharing prices, or are they still required to purchase scrolls for spells they don't receive while leveling?
Yes it is available.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Ah, perfect. Thanks SCRPedMage!

Shadow Lodge

Ask and ye shall receive. :P

5/5 5/55/55/5

Thanks mage.

Anyone else picturing this owl sitting in the grand lodge teaching familiars all day?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Anyone else picturing this owl sitting in the grand lodge teaching familiars all day?

Nope.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

SCPRedMage wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Anyone else picturing this owl sitting in the grand lodge teaching familiars all day?
Nope.

oh god, i hated that freaking owl

4/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Is there a "commune cost" associated with a witch like a wizard has a scribe cost?

Essentially, if a witch wanted to learn a level 1 spell from an NPC witch in PFS, would they pay 15 gp (NPC cost + commune cost) or is it just 5 gp (NPC cost only). I know it's 15 gp for a wizard but not sure about the witch.

5/5 *

Witches don't have a "scribe" cost as per their class feature AFAIK

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Yiroep wrote:

Is there a "commune cost" associated with a witch like a wizard has a scribe cost?

Essentially, if a witch wanted to learn a level 1 spell from an NPC witch in PFS, would they pay 15 gp (NPC cost + commune cost) or is it just 5 gp (NPC cost only). I know it's 15 gp for a wizard but not sure about the witch.

As CRobledo said, there is no "scribe" cost for witches, so you only have to pay the 5gp for access to the spell, and then succeed on the Spellcraft check (which should just be a matter of taking ten).

4/5

Thanks! That actually came up last weekend with a fellow player who asked how much it was to get new spells. I knew about the wizard rule but couldn't find anything about witches in regard to it anywhere, so just told him it was 15 gp for a level 1. I messaged him the correction now that it will only cost him 5 gp.

3/5

Yiroep wrote:
Thanks! That actually came up last weekend with a fellow player who asked how much it was to get new spells. I knew about the wizard rule but couldn't find anything about witches in regard to it anywhere, so just told him it was 15 gp for a level 1. I messaged him the correction now that it will only cost him 5 gp.

... and he appreciates that message!

-TimD

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

The way I read the witch rules, you can use a scroll to learn a spell or other familiar via other players but there is no way to access the spell otherwise. You can't use the wizard access spellbook rules for a witch.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

In terms of learning spells from NPCs, it works the same as for wizards, as stated in SCPRedMage's post above.

In terms of PCs sharing spells with other PCs, witches' familiars can't learn from wizards' spellbooks, or vice versa.

Dark Archive 3/5

Paz wrote:

In terms of learning spells from NPCs, it works the same as for wizards, as stated in SCPRedMage's post above.

In terms of PCs sharing spells with other PCs, witches' familiars can't learn from wizards' spellbooks, or vice versa.

Or the witch can simply cast Blood transcription on the familiar and have it drink that Wizards blood. Quick, easy way to add spells from a PC wizards spellbook to your Witch. Kind of disgusting and one heck of a conversation beforehand but it should work.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Paz wrote:

In terms of learning spells from NPCs, it works the same as for wizards, as stated in SCPRedMage's post above.

In terms of PCs sharing spells with other PCs, witches' familiars can't learn from wizards' spellbooks, or vice versa.

Or the witch can simply cast Blood transcription on the familiar and have it drink that Wizards blood. Quick, easy way to add spells from a PC wizards spellbook to your Witch. Kind of disgusting and one heck of a conversation beforehand but it should work.

Especially since you have to actually kill the wizard.

Quote:
Target: one dead spellcaster
Quote:
pint of blood from a spellcaster killed within the last 24 hours ... one spell available to the dead spellcaster

Dark Archive 3/5

thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Paz wrote:

In terms of learning spells from NPCs, it works the same as for wizards, as stated in SCPRedMage's post above.

In terms of PCs sharing spells with other PCs, witches' familiars can't learn from wizards' spellbooks, or vice versa.

Or the witch can simply cast Blood transcription on the familiar and have it drink that Wizards blood. Quick, easy way to add spells from a PC wizards spellbook to your Witch. Kind of disgusting and one heck of a conversation beforehand but it should work.

Especially since you have to actually kill the wizard.

Quote:
Target: one dead spellcaster
Quote:
pint of blood from a spellcaster killed within the last 24 hours ... one spell available to the dead spellcaster

I don't have to kill him, he just needs to be dead. Which in my neck of the woods is pretty normal for the squishy caster types.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Paz wrote:

In terms of learning spells from NPCs, it works the same as for wizards, as stated in SCPRedMage's post above.

In terms of PCs sharing spells with other PCs, witches' familiars can't learn from wizards' spellbooks, or vice versa.

Or the witch can simply cast Blood transcription on the familiar and have it drink that Wizards blood. Quick, easy way to add spells from a PC wizards spellbook to your Witch. Kind of disgusting and one heck of a conversation beforehand but it should work.

Especially since you have to actually kill the wizard.

Quote:
Target: one dead spellcaster
Quote:
pint of blood from a spellcaster killed within the last 24 hours ... one spell available to the dead spellcaster

I don't have to kill him, he just needs to be dead. Which in my neck of the woods is pretty normal for the squishy caster types.

True, but not all that helpful when dealing with other PCs.

"Wait! Don't Raise him yet!! <drains blood> OK. Go ahead."
It can work in some situations, but probably isn't going to be a common way to share spells between PCs.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

So...the witch starts off with a blessed book out of the gate in PFS (since there is no scribe cost for the witch)?!? Okay..good to know.


Cold Napalm wrote:
So...the witch starts off with a blessed book out of the gate in PFS (since there is no scribe cost for the witch)?!? Okay..good to know.

A blessed book that can be killed. And he can only have one.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

thejeff wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
So...the witch starts off with a blessed book out of the gate in PFS (since there is no scribe cost for the witch)?!? Okay..good to know.

A blessed book that can be killed. And he can only have one.

Stone familiar makes that a none issue. Also bonded witch.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A stone familiar is 6,000 gp. That's not an insignificant amount of money. My witch was level 6 before he could afford a stone familiar. That's not really starting with one right out of the gate...

5/5

My witch still does not have a stone familiar at level 12. Of course I have managed not to get him perma kill either. (thank you ultimate mercy paladin)

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Iammars wrote:
A stone familiar is 6,000 gp. That's not an insignificant amount of money. My witch was level 6 before he could afford a stone familiar. That's not really starting with one right out of the gate...

Blessed book is 12500...yeah it's still a pretty dang big advantage to the witch here. And if your a bonded witch...don't have to worry about the stone familiar at all. In anycase, it's good news for my witch...dance of joy :) .

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

If you're a bonded witch you're a) a half elf and b) lose the ability to add spells from another familiar.

Blood transcription, eh? I never thought of that. Thank you for making Ksenia even *more* creepy. :-)

Liberty's Edge 4/5

You guys have kinda gotten off topic a bit. Everyone agrees that the cost to make the brew for a familiar to learn from a scroll is 'nothing'? I don't see any cost listed in with the witch writeup... but I'm just double checking here...
So.. as the GM.. I just have them make the appropriate spellcraft check and list the spell on their sheet as a 'Condition Gained'?

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Blackfoot wrote:

You guys have kinda gotten off topic a bit. Everyone agrees that the cost to make the brew for a familiar to learn from a scroll is 'nothing'? I don't see any cost listed in with the witch writeup... but I'm just double checking here...

So.. as the GM.. I just have them make the appropriate spellcraft check and list the spell on their sheet as a 'Condition Gained'?

That's what we've been doing when I play Ksenia, yes.

It's my understanding she doesn't even have to be able to cast the spell yet. If the scenario has a 4th level spell, I can try to make the spellcraft check to put in 'in the familiar' even though she can't cast it yet.

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
It's my understanding she doesn't even have to be able to cast the spell yet. If the scenario has a 4th level spell, I can try to make the spellcraft check to put in 'in the familiar' even though she can't cast it yet.

I don't think any class with any form of "spellbook" has to be able to cast the spell to copy it; heck, my alchemist was able to copy a scroll of Invisibility into his formula book while he was level two.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Yep, if you can gain access to the spell, and make a successful Spellcraft check at a DC of 15 plus spell level, you can scribe it.

For some Wizard builds, that means they can pretty much scribe any spell that they can afford the scribing cost for in their spellbook right out of the gate with a T10.

Int 20 +5
Class skill +3
Ranks +1

Spellcraft +8 or 9 at first level for most Wizard builds, and then you can get boosts with Skill Focus or a trait...

So that is 3rd or 4th level spells for your typical Wizard build.

My Magus, who only had a 16 Int at 1st level, still had a +7 Spellcraft, allowing him to T10 for second level spells when he barely had 1st level spells...

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Blackfoot wrote:
Is there a cost for a witch to teach his/her familiar a spell from a scroll found in PFS play or do they just need to make the appropriate Spellcraft check?

OK.. so 3 years later. I don't really see an official PFS ruling on this question. I also don't see anywhere that it states that witches pay anything to concoct their 'brew'.

HeroLab has now added their cool spells known code which separates 'free' spells from 'purchased' spells. THEY think that you pay the same price as a wizard does... but I can't find anywhere that it says this is actually the case.

2/5

Blackfoot wrote:
Blackfoot wrote:
Is there a cost for a witch to teach his/her familiar a spell from a scroll found in PFS play or do they just need to make the appropriate Spellcraft check?

OK.. so 3 years later. I don't really see an official PFS ruling on this question. I also don't see anywhere that it states that witches pay anything to concoct their 'brew'.

HeroLab has now added their cool spells known code which separates 'free' spells from 'purchased' spells. THEY think that you pay the same price as a wizard does... but I can't find anywhere that it says this is actually the case.

Witches can pay NPCs to share their familiar's spells like wizards getting access to NPC's spellbooks. There is no cost for the actual brew unlike the wizard's scribing cost.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

It would be nice to have some official information that verified this.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blackfoot wrote:
It would be nice to have some official information that verified this.

]

That link is to a quote by mike brock, and he is all officially official.

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blackfoot wrote:
It would be nice to have some official information that verified this.

Mike Brock's rulings are still official.

There's not gonna be an "official ruling" on if witches have to pay to teach familiars spells from scrolls with the brew, because the official rules for witches already have the cost of 0 gp, besides the scroll price itself. If a witch finds a scroll in the scenario and learns from it for free, that's fine because there's still the opportunity cost of not using the scroll in the scenario. If a witch PC is playing with another witch PC, they can freely exchange spells as per the Witch's Familiar rules. They don't gotta worry about scribing costs because their spellbooks are alive and also vulnerable and they're only able to get new spells from limited sources (familiars and scrolls whereas other classes can copy from various class books).

Liberty's Edge 4/5

There actually is no mention that it costs nothing.. there is no mention of the cost at all. Which one probably SHOULD assume is 'free' but at the same time, many of these 'newer' classes (ones not in the core book) refer back to the wizard class as their basis. I'm sure this is what HeroLab is doing.. but obviously that could.. or could not be true.

That link to Mike's Ruling doesn't say anything about the cost.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Blackfoot wrote:

There actually is no mention that it costs nothing.. there is no mention of the cost at all. Which one probably SHOULD assume is 'free' but at the same time, many of these 'newer' classes (ones not in the core book) refer back to the wizard class as their basis. I'm sure this is what HeroLab is doing.. but obviously that could.. or could not be true.

That link to Mike's Ruling doesn't say anything about the cost.

As someone else said, Mike brocks ruling doesn't mention the cost because the costs are in the core rules already.

A wizard can go to the grand lodge, pay to borrow a spellbook, and copy it into his spellbook

Mike brocks ruling= You can take your familiar to the great old owl in sky reach, pay a fee, and have your familiar learn a spell the same way a wizard can rent a spellbook.

Under the magic chapter

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more. (the last part doesn't apply in pfs , cause, giant library)

Under the witch, yes it could be clearer that the witch doesn't have to pay anything to scribe into their familiar, but thats not a PFS issue.

So you put that all together and for the witch the cost is only

0: 2.5 gp
1st: 5 gp
2nd: 20 gp
3rd: 45 gp
4th: 80 gp
5th: 125 gp
6th: 180 gp
7th: 245 gp
8th: 320 gp
9th: 405 gp

2/5

Blackfoot wrote:

There actually is no mention that it costs nothing.. there is no mention of the cost at all. Which one probably SHOULD assume is 'free' but at the same time, many of these 'newer' classes (ones not in the core book) refer back to the wizard class as their basis. I'm sure this is what HeroLab is doing.. but obviously that could.. or could not be true.

That link to Mike's Ruling doesn't say anything about the cost.

The Mike Brock post and FAQ are basically the only things in PFS referencing witch spells. There's not gonna be a PFS ruling on the matter on how PFS handles witches getting new spells because regular rules handles it.

You seem to be asking for regular rules, (whereas your original post in 2013 asks about PFS, which PFS doesn't make any changes to the regular witch familiar rules). If it doesn't say anything referencing a scribe cost, it doesn't have a cost. Other classes that have costs specifically state such a thing or simply reference the spellbook rules from the Magic Chapter of the CRB Arcane Spells) which has the writing costs.
Alchemist: An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements.
Magus: At any time, a magus can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own (see Arcane Spells).
Arcanist: Just says spellbook, which is more an attribute of ACG's editing issues, but would still use the regular spell books rules in Arcane Spells.
The witch familiar rules does neither: no mention of the word "spellbook", and the word "cost" only comes up to replace the familiar.

So no cost for witches the learn new spells from scrolls or another familiar in regular Pathfinder rules. PFS, specifically Mike Brock's statement, just includes rules that witches can pay an NPC for access to their familiar's spells.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Under the witch, yes it could be clearer that the witch doesn't have to pay anything to scribe into their familiar, but thats not a PFS issue.

This DOES matter for PFS, do you pay the fee to make the brew or not. The rules are in not clear ... it doesn't say definitively that there is no fee to make the brew.

I am not asking a for a FAQ about buying a scroll or spell from a 3rd party witch/wizard... only about the cost of the brew. All of those issues are beside the point.

Personally, I have gone with the assumption that it does not cost anything, my goal at this point is to get an official statement so that HeroLab can get it right.

2/5

There is no cost for the scroll ash brew. In non-PFS and PFS. It is clear because it doesn't state there's a cost in the text:

Quote:
Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.

It's just 1 hour/spell level, Spellcraft check if 15 + spell level which the witch can take 10 on, and a consumed up scroll. THE only cost is the loss of scroll and in-game time (which doesn't matter at the end of the scenario. In PFS, being a witch is cheap and inexpensive because of all the scrolls thrown their way and the lack of opportunity cost as those scrolls get taken away from them if they don't use/consume them.

How much is Herolab saying the charge is per spell level?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Blackfoot wrote:

]This DOES matter for PFS, do you pay the fee to make the brew or not. The rules are in not clear ... it doesn't say definitively that there is no fee to make the brew.

I didn't say it didn't matter for PFS. I said it wasn't PFS specific.

The PFS team has no control over the text and clarification of core rules. You need to complain to a different department, but it doesn't say that something isn't there.. well, they don't say that you need the finger bones of a halfling thief, so maybe you need the finger bones of a halfling thief?

Quote:
I am not asking a for a FAQ about buying a scroll or spell from a 3rd party witch/wizard... only about the cost of the brew. All of those issues are beside the point.

There is no cost to the brew

There is no cost to the brew
There is no cost to the brew

For PFS there is no cost to the brew.

Quote:
Personally, I have gone with the assumption that it does not cost anything, my goal at this point is to get an official statement so that HeroLab can get it right.

there is an overwrite feature in herolab isnt there?

2/5

For Hero Labs, it's using generic spellbook rules for costs, even when it comes to the witch familiar. Just use custom cost and use the costs BigNorseWolf listed.


Blackfoot wrote:
Is there a cost for a witch to teach his/her familiar a spell from a scroll found in PFS play or do they just need to make the appropriate Spellcraft check?

Players are allowed to consume scrolls IN PLAY without buying them, so if the scroll hasn't been used, and there is downtime, I'd allow it. It does make up for the fact that unlike wizards, witches can't have backup spellbooks. Book casters are allowed to do this as well, paying only for the cost of scribing. I'm not familliar with the witches but it seems they should be able to do this with only the costs of time and whatever goes into preparing the scroll ashes for a famillar brew.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Kind of amusing scenario story.

Party fighting a witch. My bard uses unnatural lust on the familiar. Familiar comes over, bard grapples familiar. Fighter has knocked the witch out and we leave her alive.

Other players look at me like I'm insane. I pin and tie up the familiar and toss him to the witch in the party. "Here, you can intimidate and download the familiar."

Insert happy witch player who forgot he could do that.

Then in true Pathfinder tradition... Since we had to take the raven quickly out of town for time purposes, my bard sent a courier to the witch the next day with a cooked Cornish hen and a note "So long and thank you for the spells."

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