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I have recently been struck by how disparate Golarion's pantheon is and how it counts many numerous ascended beings among its most powerful members. So are there any true gods left ?
How many of the big 20 are actually true Golarian gods ?
- Abadar : apparently a true Golarian God
- Asmodeus : ascended archdevil (according to a JJ post from 2009)
- Calistria : elven goddess, so an interplanetary immigrant from Castrovel
- Cayden Cailean : ascended mortal
- Desna : weird Outer God-like being
- Erastil : apparently a survivor from a god-cataclysm (Ragnarok ?) on another world
- Gorum : born from the conflicts between humans and orcs
- Gozreh : apparently a true Golarian God
- Iomedae : ascended mortal
- Irori : ascended mortal
- Lamashtu : ascended demon lord
- Nethys : ascended mortal
- Norgorber : ascended mortal
- Pharasma : apparently a true Golarian God
- Rovagug : destructive entity imprisoned in Golarion
- Sarenrae : ascended empyreal lord
- Shelyn : child of god Thron (who was apparently a true Golarian God)
- Torag : god of the Dwarves. Origin unknown (Underdark ?)
- Urgathoa : ascended mortal
- Zon-Kuthon : corruption of Dou Bral, child of god Thron (who was apparently a true Golarian God)
Thoughts ?
The Terrasque is a God. That's what I think.
Like...a god animal.
Asmodeus is actually a true god, according to Book of the Damned 1. If anything, the other archdevils are more fallen angels.
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I am standing up!
On another note... if hints in The Great Beyond are to be believed, Groetus may be the only leftover from an earlier pantheon, and Pharasma and the others are all already interlopers (never mind the all ascended mortals and other upstarts-to-the-upstarts).
Groetus = Galactus ?
Wow, now I love him even more :-)))
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Groetus = Galactus ?
Wow, now I love him even more :-)))
Oh man, now I got to play a Herald of Groetus.
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The mix seems about right if you look at some other pantheons.
The Norse, for example, are a synthesis of the Aesir and the Vanir, with a few elves (Idunna) and giants (Loki) who married in or became blood brothers, with Hel, the daughter of one of those giants, becoming the ruler of the underworld itself.
Then look at the Greco-Roman pantheon. Yes, you've got all the gods as members of one family, except for the one's who aren't. Hecate was one of the titans who decided to back Zeus and his brothers against the other titans and so was rewarded with a post as goddess of the night (after Hades took over the underworld which she'd run formerly). Aphrodite was this random nymph who surfed in one day on a scallop shell and was so hot that someone had to marry her--Hephaestus as it turned out, but her affair with Ares led to their son, Eros, who later had a thing going with a mortal princess, Psyche, who was given ambrosia to become a goddess after Aphrodite's attempts to kill her failed. Dionysus was one of Zeus's mortal sons who was made a god for inventing wine. Hercules was another who was made a god after death on the basis of fame. Athena popped out of Zeus's forehead fully formed. And this doesn't even get into when they got into crossovers with the Egyptian pantheon.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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If real life history is any indication, religion is always shifting and forming with new gods showing up, old gods being adopted or adapted, and old old gods showing up after being long dead.
Even today we have at least the reverence of gods as old as the written word. There are people who still claim to worship such gods as Thor, Venus, or Samhain, while the majority of the world worships Christ, Allah, and Jahova (who could be seen as the same god but with different names.) We still have very old religions in Asia, older in some respects to Christianity, and just as big in population.
Then we have the gods that we only a bit about. The female gods of prehistory that only large breasted statues hint at. We also have names of gods like Chernobog but little to tell us about them.
In Golarian, we have the same thing but in a more active and organic movement. In this world, gods don't die just die out because their believers are wiped out, conquered, or influenced to change their philosophy. They die because they are actually killed, they commit some form of suicide, imprisoned, or banished. In a few rare cases their worship is removed from the world when a culture that worships them is instantly destroyed. Such is the case with the Peacock Spirit and Thassalon.
In a way, the gods and faiths of Golarian are like rulers and empires that span long periods of time. Few are from Golarian, and many of them have worshipers on other worlds and literal empires on other planes.
That said. The original gods of the world, the creators, are gone. A few of the remaining ones have creation stories about being part of the creation of the universe, but I am not aware of any of the current gods being involved in the direct creation of the world. It is possible that those creators don't care, are slumbering, or are dead. If they left for some place else or are slumbering, I doubt they will be pleased upon returning or awakening, especially considering some of the dark hints thrown out about who these gods might be.
If by "True Golarion Gods" you mean "Gods around since the beginning of Golarion" (since, otherwise, all Golarion gods are technically true Golarion gods) then there's still a solid chunk of "True" deities among the many. I don't think it's that disparate.
The original batch includes: Desna, Pharasma, Abadar, Gozreh, Asmodeus (he's not actually ascended so much as he just made Devils in his image), and Rovagug (he may be imprisoned but he's still "original"). So that's six.
Then there's Thron's children (Thron is more so described as a "great spirit" [demigod maybe] who gave birth to children greater than himself)who are also technically "true Golarion deities" (imo), Shelyn and Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon. So that brings the count to eight.
The lore on Torag and Calistria is a little more sparse and while they're associated with particular races they may or may not be from Golarion's inception. So the total hovers around 8 or maybe 10. So almost 50% which isn't that disparate compared to most pantheons (as above posters have mentioned by comparing the list against the Aesir/Vanir and the Dodekatheon).
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Groetus = Galactus ?
I... don't think I can take Groetus seriously anymore. I keep picturing Galactus' face on that moon instead of a skull now D:
If by "True Golarion Gods" you mean "Gods around since the beginning of Golarion" (since, otherwise, all Golarion gods are technically true Golarion gods) then there's still a solid chunk of "True" deities among the many. I don't think it's that disparate.
The original batch includes: Desna, Pharasma, Abadar, Gozreh, Asmodeus (he's not actually ascended so much as he just made Devils in his image), and Rovagug (he may be imprisoned but he's still "original"). So that's six.
Then there's Thron's children (Thron is more so described as a "great spirit" [demigod maybe] who gave birth to children greater than himself)who are also technically "true Golarion deities" (imo), Shelyn and Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon. So that brings the count to eight.
The lore on Torag and Calistria is a little more sparse and while they're associated with particular races they may or may not be from Golarion's inception. So the total hovers around 8 or maybe 10. So almost 50% which isn't that disparate compared to most pantheons (as above posters have mentioned by comparing the list against the Aesir/Vanir and the Dodekatheon).
You forgot Erastil, who is arguably older than Abadar.
Can you cite the source of said claim, Chris?
It could be fun if in future APs or Campaign setting material is discovered Erastil used to be a god from Earth which just changed his name and appearance for a new beginning.
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Are you sure about Desna? IIRC, didn't she show up and later ascend after Curchanus got himself ganked by Lamashtu?
Nope, she and Curchanus were friends, and she got some of his power when he died, but she was a full deity (and debatably a fairly old one) even before then.
And Rovagug has been pretty strongly implied by James Jacobs to be an ascended qlippoth, not a god right from the very beginning of everything. Actually, it seems that he may have killed off a whole bunch of them way back when he first showed up, and the "originals" around now are just the survivors.
Rovagug is stated to have killed a bunch of Gods...and his exact nature is very much still up in the air, though being related to the qlippoth somehow seems quite possible.
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Before Nethys there was another god of magic which used to be a rival of the Lady of Runes, according to a Shattered Star AP article. In the Age of Lost omens cosmology we find lots of gods which weren't around during the times of Azlant and Thassilion with the exception of Asmodeus, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Desna, Gozreh and Rovagug (gods which sure weren't worshiped by the azlanti). This made me think about the identity of Abadar.
If Abadar was an azlanti deity, being cities one of his domains, he sure could had inspired his non-azlanti followers to build civilizations following the azlanti standards, a thing which didn't happened until Aroden's ascension. Maybe Abadar was a minor barbarian god of roads which in the times after Earthfall grow in power, acquiring domains like wealth and cities, which implies the First Vault doesn't belong to him but perhaps a now defunct or disappeared azlanti deity.
I wonder where everyone is getting half this info. The Deity articles in the APs? I've read the Erastil one and never read anything about him being a survivor of a dead pantheon.
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As I recall Erastil being a survivor of a dead pantheon was a suggestion posited by a forum goer in one of the various Erastil threads. It seems that someone is mixing up their details. He is an old god who though a bit curmudgeonly has softened somewhat since his earlier days.
As for Desna. She is not a former mythos entity. She was a goddess long before she got involved with Golarion and Curchanus was a friend and mentor who gave her dominion over travel so it wouldn't fall to Lamashtu's thieving hands. As far as we know she is a born goddess.
Is that in Gods and Magic? I don't recall that in the Kingmaker article about him.
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IIRC, the bit about Erastil came from Paizo staff as a plausible explanation in the thread about why the proper family god was still a bachelor.
For Desna, some things I could find was a post by JJ in 2008 that stated "In fact, I suspect that Curchanus was MUCH younger than Desna, and that he was the god who mentored Desna's growth as a goddess of humanity, rather than a weird alien whatever she was before."
Confirmed I think by another post in 2013 stating "And calling him Desna's mentor is actually not exactly right... he was more like the one who helped Desna acclimate to humanity. She was far older and more powerful than he was."
I know I read more precise things about this somewhere, but I just cannot remember where.
Another interesting bit by JJ is about the 5 oldest gods (of the BIG 20) : "Pharasma's the oldest. Desna's up there as well. So is Rovagug. Also Gozreh. And number 5 is probably Sarenrae or maybe Asmodeus."
No Abadar there interestingly.
Creative Director
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Abadar is certainly an old god. He was worshiped back in Azlant, after all. But he's not as old a god as Pharasma, Desna, Rovagug, Gozreh, Sarenrae, or Asmodeus.
Rovagug is one of the oldest gods, in any evnet—the qlippoth may well have preceded the gods themselves in fact. (And we've pretty much "outed" Rovagug as an ascended qlippoth as of Pathfinder #64.)
As for Desna, yes—she's a very old deity, but her appearance as a butterfly-winged elf woman is relatively recent —only a few tens of thousands of years old or so. Before that, she was... something else.
What about the old statement that Desna wasn't a god until after she came to Golarion? Is that still in play?
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What about the old statement that Desna wasn't a god until after she came to Golarion? Is that still in play?
1) Where is that statement from?
2) Golarion was still Golarion millions, if not billions of years before life showed up on its primeval surface. That's a long time for a god to become a god.
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Confirmed I think by another post in 2013 stating "And calling him Desna's mentor is actually not exactly right... he was more like the one who helped Desna acclimate to humanity. She was far older and more powerful than he was."
And now Desna is on and off 'dating' Cayden. Yet more evidence that her favored animal should be the cougar.
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Confirmed I think by another post in 2013 stating "And calling him Desna's mentor is actually not exactly right... he was more like the one who helped Desna acclimate to humanity. She was far older and more powerful than he was."And now Desna is on and off 'dating' Cayden. Yet more evidence that her favored animal should be the cougar.
Not sure where that's from either... not that it's necessarily wrong. Desna's got a lot of love to go around.
Yeah, as James Jacobs mentioned above, Rovagug is an ascended Qlippoth but since his ascension (and entire species) came before most other gods even existed I would still count him as an original Golarion deity.
As for Erastil, I left him out of my earlier post only because I was short on time and didn't want to deal with the contention of him being from an older pantheon (which I've never heard of until now and I'm a fairly big Golarion canon nut). I absolutely would include Erastil as an "original" Golarion deity (putting the count up to 11). I don't know where people are getting the mixed message about Erastil being a foreigner.
Edit in response to Mikaze's post: Fandarra's entry in Gods and Magic does mention Erastil, but only by calling him out as a contemporary of Fandarra. That's it, and all that means is that Erastil is just really, really old. . . which goes without saying anyway. Basically when the world was younger he was more of a tribal deity but now he's a bit more "civilized". That's the gist of it in Fandarra's entry.
What about the old statement that Desna wasn't a god until after she came to Golarion? Is that still in play?1) Where is that statement from?
It appears to have been me misremembering/misinterpreting this post of yours, which on further perusal does not in fact imply she wasn't a god before Curchanus helped her acclimate. So never mind, sorry ^.^
Also princes of Darkness portray Asmodeus as the oldest god not ascended devil...
Also princes of Darkness portray Asmodeus as the oldest god not ascended devil...
And we have always been at war with Eurasia!
Though it's one of the few books I don't own so I don't know the context, I still take claims like that on the behalf of Asmodeus with a grain of salt.
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Also princes of Darkness portray Asmodeus as the oldest god not ascended devil...
I thought Asmodeus was one of the original gods of Golarion. Or is the idea that he was involved in creating the contracts between the gods regarding the creation of the world just Asmodean myth?You can expect to see the detailed, Asmodean version of prehistory in Book of the Damned.
Emphasis mine ;-)
And JJ has always described Asmodeus as an ascended archdevil. Don't take my word for it : check his posts on "Asmodeus archdevil" ;-)
BTW, I am honestly and humbly awed that the great and busy James Jacobs took the time to post on my thread. I should buy a lottery ticket I think :-)
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Creative Director
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Also princes of Darkness portray Asmodeus as the oldest god not ascended devil...
And certainly has no elements of the devil slyly rewriting history to amuse and benefit him.
When it comes to prehistory and creation myths, we are deliberately contradictory in print. We don't want to say "This is how it happened" since that transforms creation myths into plain old history. By presenting multiple versions of creation, though, even when they're not all exactly in sync, we can have our cake and eat it too by detailing the myth but making it impossible for any of us to know which one is right... or indeed if ANY of them are right.
Abadar is certainly an old god. He was worshiped back in Azlant, after all. But he's not as old a god as Pharasma, Desna, Rovagug, Gozreh, Sarenrae, or Asmodeus.
Rovagug is one of the oldest gods, in any evnet—the qlippoth may well have preceded the gods themselves in fact. (And we've pretty much "outed" Rovagug as an ascended qlippoth as of Pathfinder #64.)
As for Desna, yes—she's a very old deity, but her appearance as a butterfly-winged elf woman is relatively recent —only a few tens of thousands of years old or so. Before that, she was... something else.
Space chrysalis traversing the Great Beyond in divine cocoon?
Space chrysalis traversing the Great Beyond in divine cocoon?Abadar is certainly an old god. He was worshiped back in Azlant, after all. But he's not as old a god as Pharasma, Desna, Rovagug, Gozreh, Sarenrae, or Asmodeus.
Rovagug is one of the oldest gods, in any evnet—the qlippoth may well have preceded the gods themselves in fact. (And we've pretty much "outed" Rovagug as an ascended qlippoth as of Pathfinder #64.)
As for Desna, yes—she's a very old deity, but her appearance as a butterfly-winged elf woman is relatively recent —only a few tens of thousands of years old or so. Before that, she was... something else.
During my attempt to locate that old post, I did locate one where James uncharacteristically slipped up and flat-out stated Desna was a sort of cosmic butterfly...
During my attempt to locate that old post, I did locate one where James uncharacteristically slipped up and flat-out stated Desna was a sort of cosmic butterfly...
Well, considering her "Shadow" is simply called "Black Butterfly" and her herald is a giant, peacock-tailed luna moth, that would seem to be a logical assumption anyway.
Also, a Chrysalis is a kind of coccoon; the thing inside is a Pupa.
Also princes of Darkness portray Asmodeus as the oldest god not ascended devil...And certainly has no elements of the devil slyly rewriting history to amuse and benefit him.
When it comes to prehistory and creation myths, we are deliberately contradictory in print. We don't want to say "This is how it happened" since that transforms creation myths into plain old history. By presenting multiple versions of creation, though, even when they're not all exactly in sync, we can have our cake and eat it too by detailing the myth but making it impossible for any of us to know which one is right... or indeed if ANY of them are right.
Heh, since it's from the Book of the Damned, penned by Tabris there could be a grain of salt in there, although the copy stored at Forae Logos in Absalom could be flawed... :D
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James uncharacteristically slipped up and flat-out stated Desna was a sort of cosmic butterfly...Well, considering her "Shadow" is simply called "Black Butterfly" and her herald is a giant, peacock-tailed luna moth, that would seem to be a logical assumption anyway.
She's a surviving god from the Insect Civilization!
Dammit, there are no Brunnen-G left! Wait, there's one on Earth... Someone get Baba Yaga's hut, we're going to Ireland!
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James uncharacteristically slipped up and flat-out stated Desna was a sort of cosmic butterfly...Well, considering her "Shadow" is simply called "Black Butterfly" and her herald is a giant, peacock-tailed luna moth, that would seem to be a logical assumption anyway.She's a surviving god from the Insect Civilization!
Dammit, there are no Brunnen-G left! Wait, there's one on Earth... Someone get Baba Yaga's hut, we're going to Ireland!
Maybe the Star Monarchs were her original race? Or somehow related?
Is that in Gods and Magic? I don't recall that in the Kingmaker article about him.I believe the bits on Erastil's harsher history is under Fandara's entry in Gods and Magic. Somewhere in that book at least.
It is also referenced in AP issue #4, in the Stone Giants section. Now that I think about it, that section may have been the first published details (such as there were) on Erastil. I'm not completely certain #1 even mentions him in the Sandpoint Cathedral write-up in the Sandpoint article.
Maybe the Star Monarchs were her original race? Or somehow related?James uncharacteristically slipped up and flat-out stated Desna was a sort of cosmic butterfly...Well, considering her "Shadow" is simply called "Black Butterfly" and her herald is a giant, peacock-tailed luna moth, that would seem to be a logical assumption anyway.She's a surviving god from the Insect Civilization!
Dammit, there are no Brunnen-G left! Wait, there's one on Earth... Someone get Baba Yaga's hut, we're going to Ireland!
Some kind of relationship there would make sense, and would be pretty cool.
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It is also referenced in AP issue #4, in the Stone Giants section. Now that I think about it, that section may have been the first published details (such as there were) on Erastil. I'm not completely certain #1 even mentions him in the Sandpoint Cathedral write-up in the Sandpoint article.Is that in Gods and Magic? I don't recall that in the Kingmaker article about him.I believe the bits on Erastil's harsher history is under Fandara's entry in Gods and Magic. Somewhere in that book at least.
I'm pretty sure the first published bits on Erastil were in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide.
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Space chrysalis traversing the Great Beyond in divine cocoon?Abadar is certainly an old god. He was worshiped back in Azlant, after all. But he's not as old a god as Pharasma, Desna, Rovagug, Gozreh, Sarenrae, or Asmodeus.
Rovagug is one of the oldest gods, in any evnet—the qlippoth may well have preceded the gods themselves in fact. (And we've pretty much "outed" Rovagug as an ascended qlippoth as of Pathfinder #64.)
As for Desna, yes—she's a very old deity, but her appearance as a butterfly-winged elf woman is relatively recent —only a few tens of thousands of years old or so. Before that, she was... something else.
That sounds very close to Ghlauder, who was accidentally released by Desna BTW. An event that resulted in Desna fighting against the forces of the Dark tapestry in atonement :
Desna fights against the agents and influences of the Dark Tapestry... if only because she's seeking redemption and forgiveness and atonement for letting Ghlaunder out of his cocoon.
Which then suggests a link between Ghlaunder and the Dark tapestry.
When it comes to prehistory and creation myths, we are deliberately contradictory in print. We don't want to say "This is how it happened" since that transforms creation myths into plain old history. By presenting multiple versions of creation, though, even when they're not all exactly in sync, we can have our cake and eat it too by detailing the myth but making it impossible for any of us to know which one is right... or indeed if ANY of them are right.
Also it results in threads such as this one, threads that must be a fun reading for the People in the know at Paizo.
I know that I love listening to my players' attempts at understanding the true story behind a module or an AP. And sometimes I catch their good ideas and insert them in my own story of what is really happening.
It stands to reason that the people at Paizo would do the same.