Failure
Would you like to explain why it would be failure?
Just handwaving like that would likely get the players upset.
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FailureWould you like to explain why it would be failure?
Just handwaving like that would likely get the players upset.
Because if Nex couldn't do it...
If your players want to try the test of the starstone, sure. Plundering the starstone...no.
That particular artifact gives you Godhood. Absalom has "control" over the starstone and they can't "plunder" it.
If you want to try and invade Absalom, you will need to accomplish something the most powerful beings in the history of the setting have failed to accomplish.
Then, on top of that, you will have to accomplish something only 3 people in the history of the setting have accomplished.
At what, 16th level?
It is like a first level party saying "Let's go Tarrasque hunting!"
FailureWould you like to explain why it would be failure?
Just handwaving like that would likely get the players upset.
Because if Nex couldn't do it...
If your players want to try the test of the starstone, sure. Plundering the starstone...no.
That particular artifact gives you Godhood. Absalom has "control" over the starstone and they can't "plunder" it.
If you want to try and invade Absalom, you will need to accomplish something the most powerful beings in the history of the setting have failed to accomplish.
Then, on top of that, you will have to accomplish something only 3 people in the history of the setting have accomplished.
At what, 16th level?
It is like a first level party saying "Let's go Tarrasque hunting!"
Better.....
My question was how Absalom is set up to repel a naval raid. Of course it depends on firepower that an armada is carrying, crew, tactics. etc...
Also element of surprise, and defenders...
If players aim for failure, let it be an epic failure.
First off, their armada would have to navigate the Eye of Abendego. While individual ships off course slip around it on a daily basis, it's much more of a feat to pass without your armada being scatterede to the winds. Here lies the potential to have your fleet litteraly scattered to the winds, and encounters with extremely dangerous sea monsters.
Then, they'll have to pass through Chelian waters. Throw some devils and such after them!
They'll have to face Absaloms navy. I wouldn't use the naval system from S&S, but instead fight a few naval ship-to-ship encounters versus high-level foes. We're talking the elite captains of the richest city. A couple of CR 17-18 encounters, without resting time in between. Here the foes would be ordinary high-level captains and officers from the enemy ships.
Finally, in order to capture the Starstone, they'd have to reach it. This is essentially the same as the 'ordinary' divinity seekers goal. As they'd be going for the divine portfolio of piracy and theft, the established gods of these areas would proparbly throw their forces in to stop them. Fights against deities such as Besmaras avatars, in addition to whatever normally guards the Starstone (that'll proparbly be a Solar Angel with a couple of Planetar Angels as back-up, perhaps even with a few advanced templates for good measure).
Remember, this is a set-up they're bound to lose. Don't feel bound by the CR-rules. Don't feel you have to give them a fighting chance. Don't be afraid of throwing extreme challenges at them. They're going to die, and stay down. But let it be epic!!
Creative Director
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One thing to remember: Absalom is set up as a nearly 5,000 year old city that's never fallen to a siege. And this is after being sieged by some pretty powerful armies.
That isn't to say that it will NEVER fall to a siege, but whoever/whatever finally does break it's multi-thousand-year streak of not falling to a siege/attack is gonna have to be pretty overwhelmingly powerful. And will probably need to use a lot of rules for naval and mass combat that we still don't have robust rules for.
Put another way: a siege of Absalom should be a full length campaign. And it should probably be a full length mythic campaign at that.
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One thing to remember: Absalom is set up as a nearly 5,000 year old city that's never fallen to a siege. And this is after being sieged by some pretty powerful armies.
That isn't to say that it will NEVER fall to a siege, but whoever/whatever finally does break it's multi-thousand-year streak of not falling to a siege/attack is gonna have to be pretty overwhelmingly powerful. And will probably need to use a lot of rules for naval and mass combat that we still don't have robust rules for.
Put another way: a siege of Absalom should be a full length campaign. And it should probably be a full length mythic campaign at that.
:)
So when are you finsihing it up? Cant wait to read it.
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Yep, have run many adventures in ABsolom, and one of the things that jumps out at me in the cities history is that Aroden specifically created the city to be unconquerable.
So, with that in mind, we have a gods handy craftsmanship, 5000 years of history to back it up, and a thousand sunken ships in its harbor.
Shouldn't that be enough of a hint that a few adventurers of 16-18th level shouldn't have a chance in the nine hells of succeeding?
To me it does.
Because if Nex couldn't do it...
If your players want to try the test of the starstone, sure. Plundering the starstone...no.
That particular artifact gives you Godhood. Absalom has "control" over the starstone and they can't "plunder" it.
If you want to try and invade Absalom, you will need to accomplish something the most powerful beings in the history of the setting have failed to accomplish.
Then, on top of that, you will have to accomplish something only 3 people in the history of the setting have accomplished.
At what, 16th level?
It is like a first level party saying "Let's go Tarrasque hunting!"
Make this very clear to them, and if they persist let them make the attempt and then smack them down hard and permanently, preferably at the first encounter...."upset players" be hanged.
Then go find yourself some people who understand the phrase "level-appropriate encounter".
Criminy.....
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Not to mention that they'd have to get an armada of unthinkable size together for such a siege, then steer that armada through either the Arch of Aroden or the stretch between Qadira and Osirion just make Absalom. What do you think any of those nations would do if they saw an armada of that nature coming? Let it through? The Arch of Aroden is the best defensive bottleneck position for Cheliax against a feasible enemy of that size! You don't let an invading armada (despite their assurances of only wanting to conquer Absalom) that could significantly weaken/conquer swaths of your own territory just waltz in. All it would take is for someone to say, "Huh. Absalom's tougher than we thought. What about that nation? They're run by devils aren't they? No one would care if we carved out a piece of that place for our very own!" Don't think Cheliax doesn't recognize this. They have to look out for their own interests too!
I'd envision that your PCs would be in for one helluva fight before they ever reached Absalom.
I'm currently DMing this AP. That said, I would never tell my players straight out that they couldn't try to do something. I would certainly warn them about how difficult it would be, but if they want to go up there and get their buts kicked, go for it.
Have they forgotten that the Pathfinder Society, collector of great MacGuffins, stores said objects in Absalom?
I can't imagine a situation where they cold succeed at taking the Starstone by force, but I would have a great time watching them try.
Looks like some people have illusions of grandeur.
Let them know the historical context (as that most likely would be easy research) of Absalom and the failure of countless invaders.
If they still want to go for it, smile and say the gloves come off for this.
Throw in this quote from 'Q Who' from Star Trek: The Next Generation for added emphasis ...
"Why, to give you a taste of your future...a preview
of things to come. Con permiso, mon capitaine? The hall is
rented, the orchestra engaged...it's now time to see if you can
*dance*."
-- "Q Who"
As to what they can expect.
Armadas are notoriously hard to move around without someone noticing. A pirate armada WILL be noticed. Coming into the Inner Sea, the nations bordering the Inner Sea will mobilize their fleets. Without knowing the pirate armada's intent, all nations will give in to the sum of all their fears and think the pirates are coming for 'them'.
The armada will have to fight its way through the fleets of Rahadoum, Cheliax, Thuvia, Andoran, Taldor, Absalom, Osirian and Qadira. Hell, with a big enough threat, those nations may even cooperate together.
Regardless of the resources of the PCs, their armada is going to take losses. Heavy losses. And all this before they even lay eyes on the prize of Absalom.
Now comes the major problem of trying a beach assault into Absalom, who bristling with defences, siege weapons, their own military and the home ground advantage.
Now think for a moment of the MOUT (Military Operation in Urban Terrain) issues of the 20th century and this century. Lets throw a few names out there - Stalingrad, Berlin, Warsaw, Falajah, Bagdad, Operation Iraqi Freedom 2 in general, Aleepo, etc. Just a few to illustrate on undeniable truth - urban fighting is sheer hell and it eats armies up.
Get the point. The players are welcome to try their grand plan but if you play the opposition without giving a bias to the safety of the PCs, they will FAIL. But it could be interesting to continue the campaign after the PCs get they asses handed to them and they have to rebuild. The surviving pirate princes will not suffer leaders leading to a major defeat kindly.
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Absalom: Saying 'Come at me, bro' to Golarion since 1 AR.
Make this very clear to them, and if they persist let them make the attempt and then smack them down hard and permanently, preferably at the first encounter...."upset players" be hanged.Then go find yourself some people who understand the phrase "level-appropriate encounter".
Criminy.....
Hah! I never believed in the phrase, "level appropriate encounter", if they wish to die, let them die. What a grand and glorious way to end a campaign! Just have them roll up their new characters at level 1 first!
Actually, given enough Mythic Tiers, I'd allow it. It'd be the focus of an entire campaign, and it would have to be something akin to demigod level powers, but come level 20/mythic tier 10, I'm sure I could think of something. A straight up invasion wouldn't work though. If Nex couldn't get through, and he actually HAD mythic tiers, I'm sure some pirates couldn't either.
That said, before, Absalom had Aroden on their side to protect them. Now he's gone, things might be a bit easier to deal with.
"Mythic". The new "high level".
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So to get the starStone, wouldnt you have to take the test to get to it? As for pirate armada sailing into the inner sea, suppose you could get there, cause if I was Cheliax I would let you pass so the others can deal with you and than sail My fleet to the Shackles.
So to get the starStone, wouldnt you have to take the test to get to it? As for pirate armada sailing into the inner sea, suppose you could get there, cause if I was Cheliax I would let you pass so the others can deal with you and than sail My fleet to the Shackles.
That's taking quite a big risk letting what would have to be one of the largest and most powerful armadas ever to grace the seas of Golarion (if it's not, don't bother sailing to Absalom) just to sail on in without knowing for an absolute certainty that Absalom will be the unalterable destination . . .
When it comes down to it, such a bold (and insane) move might just mean swapping territories . . . Chelaxians take the Shackles, but lose Cheliax. Which territory would you rather have if you were the Chelaxians, I wonder?
So to get the starStone, wouldnt you have to take the test to get to it? As for pirate armada sailing into the inner sea, suppose you could get there, cause if I was Cheliax I would let you pass so the others can deal with you and than sail My fleet to the Shackles.That's taking quite a big risk letting what would have to be one of the largest and most powerful armadas ever to grace the seas of Golarion (if it's not, don't bother sailing to Absalom) just to sail on in without knowing for an absolute certainty that Absalom will be the unalterable destination . . .
When it comes down to it, such a bold (and insane) move might just mean swapping territories . . . Chelaxians take the Shackles, but lose Cheliax. Which territory would you rather have if you were the Chelaxians, I wonder?
I think the problem here is that the Chell navy can probably take the Shackles Island by Island after the fleet takes out those that resist them. With a huge number of pirates in Absolam that makes this easier. The pirate that choses to invade the chells still has to remember that it is a huge country with an army as well as a navy. Day 1 Pirates make short work of remaining Chel ships, Day 2 Priates take a few costal forts. Day 3 pirates on land are killed feed to devils.
Nex couldn't take Absalom. Given that Geb and Nex fought each other to a standstill, meaning they are likely to be equally matched and competent ....and seeing what Geb did as a "quick aside" to the Pirate fleet which now compromises the Field of Maidens.... I'd say, Absalom is very very safe^^
Absalom > Nex = Geb > stronger than most pirate fleets.
There might also be the problem to recruit enough pirates to even challenge Absalom. Where do you recruit, train and provide these vast fleet from ?
As to what they can expect.
Armadas are notoriously hard to move around without someone noticing. A pirate armada WILL be noticed. Coming into the Inner Sea, the nations bordering the Inner Sea will mobilize their fleets. Without knowing the pirate armada's intent, all nations will give in to the sum of all their fears and think the pirates are coming for 'them'.
The armada will have to fight its way through the fleets of Rahadoum, Cheliax, Thuvia, Andoran, Taldor, Absalom, Osirian and Qadira. Hell, with a big enough threat, those nations may even cooperate together.
Maybe, maybe not. They may just mobilize their fleets and stations them in their own waters, just in case (Though I suspect Cheliax would want some payback).
Not that that's a good thing for the players, mind you. They could just wait for their armada and Absalom to batter each other into submission, then either ride to the rescue for some big favors from Absalom, or just roll over both weakened sides and take the whole enchilada.
My this very concept is ludicrous. The very idea is extremely arrogant and pretty much has no chance in succeeding. I mean there is no way that a bunch of shackles pirates could take down an unconquerable city build by a GOD that has fought off invasions from some of the most powerful NPCs in the Golarion setting.
In summation: GO FOR IT.
It'll be glorious.
uh obviously you have not met the PCs from the S&S game I GM
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Another obstacle would be the coalition of nations who've been squabbling over dominion over Absalom for generations, aka the original five PFS factions. The 5 most powerful nations in the Inner Sea region would start banding together if anyone else looked like they had any chance of succeeding at actually taking Absalom.
Then there are the Pathfinders, who'd also take violent umbrage at an invasion of Absalom.
The assumption that you can just 'get to' the Starstone is what throws me. Intrigues, plots, tactics, betrayals, strategies, etc. can all take down any city with planning and luck, if you're willing to spend the resources. But that's just phase one of this plan.
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Hey, Maverick Indingo,
Don't let the incredulity scare you away. After all, you're PCs aren't actually threatening all their Absaloms, just yours. If you're up to it, knock yourself out and have a great time!
Do you have the Absalom sourcebook? (I don't)
I haven't read the histories so I can't help you there.
However, the PFS (soon to be retired?) Intro scenarios and PFS Field Guide show that beyond Absalom lie the Cairnlands, a wasteland of centuries worth of ruined siege towers from countless ambitiously funded failed attempts.
They also establish that Absalom's armada is actually harbored on Kortos' small neighboring island. The entry to Absalom proper is protected by the Flotsam Graveyard, a maze of shipwrecks and tiny islands through which safe passage is a closely guarded secret. Absalom's armada can then pin an invading force between itself and the Flotsam Graveyard.
Of potential interest to your players might be a mission to steal the secret passage through the Flotsam Graveyard from the Pilot's Guild. They would have to take great care to steal that secret, well, secretly so that the Pilot's Guild is unaware that another party knows of it. Otherwise I imagine given sufficient warning the guild can mess with the naval maze and create a new route. (I haven't read that, I'm just assuming they could muster emergency resources to pull it off if they were aware of an imminent threat.)
There's also The Black Whale, a floating prison of 6 ships, in the area. "Only the Grand Council holds a complete list of those interred here... and the dangerous knowledge they possess." This smacks of classic Alexandre Dumas! Your PCs may catch wind of prisoner here that may be in their pivotal interest to bust out before s/he succumbs to the eventual loss of life from incarceration there.
The Shackles big defense - apart from the epic load of threats actually inhabiting the Isles - is the Eye of Abendego. If you've finished the AP and the Shackles have survived the Chellish plot, others may have heard of the failed but hopeful invasion. The cat is out of the bag: given enough resources, the Eye of Abendego can be navigable. Now that word gets out that it is remotely possible to launch a fleet through there, your players may have to be prepared to play defensive all the while plotting their takeover of the City at the Centre of the World.
Assuming that your PCs intend on keeping their title as Hurricane King. Maybe they don't give two hoots. In which case, they might be plotting Golarions biggest bait and switch: Let the Shackles be fought over by all the nations that have had their shipping hamstrung for decades by impetuous pirates. Dangle the carrot at the opportune moment: when the worlds eyes are on the epic smiting of Buccaneers, Bam! Absalom finds itself overtaken and sports Besmara's colours from its towers! What!? Did that just happen!?
In short, have fun! Let us know how it works out. :-)
As cannons have now been introduced to the AP, equip the fleet with 4 9-lb cannons (6d10/x3) and 18 12-lb cannons (6d10/x3) port and starboard. The Cheliaxian navy should have already suffered a bloody nose in book 6 so they would be unlikely to face the entire pirate fleet.
There might also be the problem to recruit enough pirates to even challenge Absalom. Where do you recruit, train and provide these vast fleet from ?Sigil,obviously. Why, where do you hire your mercenaries?
2E, badly conceived, WotC Sigil ? *groans*
.....and I guess actually every mercenary there is naturally a pirate. I also would like to see the Bay of Sigil where the training is going to take place...
The ultimate defense against any player army:
Make them hash out the logistics including securing all the credit they'd need to finance the fleet.
/game.
oh man I forgot all about this
how hard did they die
we must have answers
ok, if you read the material about the approach to island you will the entire island is surrounded by crushed siege towers and the sea is full of sunken wrecks of ships. In the text, it quotes that only knowledgeable sailors from the area are able to sail through.
That means that your armada of ships will bottle necked again and be subject to attack by everything which the nation can bring to bear... not to mention once the first ship sinks... they are completely locked up.
a siege is the only to take absalom, and your talking years to complete. Since other countries would be picking your ships off one and at time... its doomed to fail. Logically it is possible, but not from pirates whom want a easy target and high reward... not a fortress which they could never crack.
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One thing to remember: Absalom is set up as a nearly 5,000 year old city that's never fallen to a siege. And this is after being sieged by some pretty powerful armies.
That isn't to say that it will NEVER fall to a siege, but whoever/whatever finally does break it's multi-thousand-year streak of not falling to a siege/attack is gonna have to be pretty overwhelmingly powerful. And will probably need to use a lot of rules for naval and mass combat that we still don't have robust rules for.
Put another way: a siege of Absalom should be a full length campaign. And it should probably be a full length mythic campaign at that.
Odd to think the conquering a single human inhibited city is of comparable difficulty to fighting demon hordes in the worldwound. The latter seems much harder than the former...
I'm not sure where they get the food but in PFS Season 0, Scenario 1, the (Something) Tide, they explain that Absalom has granaries stocked specifically to endure sieges. I suppose during peace time, the food can come from pretty well anywhere.
The one thing I wondered is I had gotten the impression that the normal sailors in S&S were basically on the low end of the skill chain. And while events of the s&s obviously lead to victory if they are planning to invade absalom.
Can you do a sea to land invasion using sort of skilled but otherwise disorganized pirates against a rich city using well trained soldiers lead by proper millitary officers?
Sure the pcs will be all kinds of badass by this point but if those normal pirates can't manage a land assault and hold ground it doesn't do a lot.
Some stuff I've read suggest island invasions against well armed people are extremely difficult.
Odd to think the conquering a single human inhibited city is of comparable difficulty to fighting demon hordes in the worldwound. The latter seems much harder than the former...One thing to remember: Absalom is set up as a nearly 5,000 year old city that's never fallen to a siege. And this is after being sieged by some pretty powerful armies.
That isn't to say that it will NEVER fall to a siege, but whoever/whatever finally does break it's multi-thousand-year streak of not falling to a siege/attack is gonna have to be pretty overwhelmingly powerful. And will probably need to use a lot of rules for naval and mass combat that we still don't have robust rules for.
Put another way: a siege of Absalom should be a full length campaign. And it should probably be a full length mythic campaign at that.
Not when the former is likely full of Lvl. 20-plus Adventures trying to prepare for the test of the Starstone. Invasions can be such inconvenient sidequests, eh? :)
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I guess the biggest question is how much does the PFS effect your world. I have been playing for years and can tell you that there are 1000's of PC's out there with a many being 12+. I also found out that the PFS has a magical portal access to go to lots of places and back plus there knack for seeing what may be happening or will is a good possibility. On top of that, there are 8 powerful factions with access to lots of knowledge and are connected several powerful nations.
Why invade, just walk in and take the test.