Can I take actions when I can't take actions?


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm not choosing to do anything I'm choosing to do nothing.
According to Malachi that takes way too much effort. It is easier to just do something.. :)
You're not doing nothing, you're choosing to wait 'til later, so you can respond to a changed situation. That's an act of will, since 'doing nothing' would mean you wasted your turn.

It would take an act of will to do something. Waiting is pretty easy, and much less of an act than actually being active.

I know when I go to work I actually get tired while my manager just waits for me to get things done. By your argument his waiting takes more effort than my doing.

He's not poised waiting to strike one second after you've finished your work.

If he was, that would be very tiring.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I wrote:
Being unable to take mental actions.....we cannot choose to hold our breath.

My position is that the 'actions' to which 'can't take any actions' refers to any conscious act (regardless of whether it consumes any of your actions), and not merely things which would consume a type of action.

I believe the devs will agree.

Good. You just answered another question I asked you before, and no I dont remember which thread it was.

Now would like to explain how waiting until later to do something is an action(not game term) since it takes more conscious effort to do something than it does to wait(do nothing)?

It's a conscious effort to manipulate the initiative order. It is not 'nothing'.

Initiative order does not even exist in the game world. That is only there for us(real life people) to keep things in order since its a turn based system. That is why you don't need an action to wait. In order for us real people to wait, they had to come up with a mechanic for it.

I am sure you will bring up readying an action-->The only reason readying takes an action is because you are setting something else up, and that should not be done without some sort of cost.

Would you say that aiming a rifle is doing nothing? There you are, not pulling the trigger.

Poor example. I have to support the rifle's weight if I am aiming. A better example is me sitting down with the weapon on a tripod until something comes into my field of view.

I can sit down all day, and it takes a lot less effort than me actually aiming and firing the weapon.

Once something comes into view I cam aim and fire.

And 'delay' is like 'aiming' your action in time instead of space.

No delaying is just waiting, normally to see how things play out. Readying would be more like aiming. The trigger would be for me to take a shot when something lines up with my crosshairs or sights.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I wrote:
Being unable to take mental actions.....we cannot choose to hold our breath.

My position is that the 'actions' to which 'can't take any actions' refers to any conscious act (regardless of whether it consumes any of your actions), and not merely things which would consume a type of action.

I believe the devs will agree.

Good. You just answered another question I asked you before, and no I dont remember which thread it was.

Now would like to explain how waiting until later to do something is an action(not game term) since it takes more conscious effort to do something than it does to wait(do nothing)?

It's a conscious effort to manipulate the initiative order. It is not 'nothing'.

Initiative order does not even exist in the game world. That is only there for us(real life people) to keep things in order since its a turn based system. That is why you don't need an action to wait. In order for us real people to wait, they had to come up with a mechanic for it.

I am sure you will bring up readying an action-->The only reason readying takes an action is because you are setting something else up, and that should not be done without some sort of cost.

Would you say that aiming a rifle is doing nothing? There you are, not pulling the trigger.

Poor example. I have to support the rifle's weight if I am aiming. A better example is me sitting down with the weapon on a tripod until something comes into my field of view.

I can sit down all day, and it takes a lot less effort than me actually aiming and firing the weapon.

Once something comes into view I cam aim and fire.

And 'delay' is like 'aiming' your action in time instead of space.
No delaying is just waiting, normally to see how things play out. Readying...

Yet both are special initiative actions that change your place in the initiative order.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Yet both are special initiative actions that change your place in the initiative order.

One of them actually involves effort, and the other does not. That is why you are having a hard time convincing most of us.

Let's look at this as if the characters know they are characters.

BBEG: Yeah I know it is my turn in the initiative order. I will just hang out and see if my minion can help. I will take my turn later. I don't always roll high, but when I do I make sure it is to my advantage.

Back to our world-->You are also arguing that it is better to roll low and therefore the high roller should be punished for doing well. What if hold person had been cast previously and failed, so the BBEG held on the following round just to make sure his minion could heal him if he failed the next time? Would that be ok for you?

Silver Crusade

Creatures take turns in initiative order. This is a game construct, but it represents the game reality of all creatures doing what they do simultaneously.

Turns come and go, without any input from the creatures, including their own place in the initiative order.

'Doing nothing' means this process continues unabated. If you do nothing, your turn comes and goes.

However, there are a couple of actions you can take to manipulate your place in this order: delay and ready.

By doing either of these, you are not 'doing nothing', you are consciously acting to change things. This is an act both in-game and in terms of game mechanics.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:


'Doing nothing' means this process continues unabated. If you do nothing, your turn comes and goes.

Delaying is 'doing nothing' until such time as you decide to do something. IF a full round goes and it comes back to your turn, then you have truly done nothing at all and your turn is lost.

The rules even spell out that delaying is 'doing nothing'

"By choosing to delay, you take no action..."

Or in other words, by choosing to delay you do nothing until such time as you decide to do something. Being aware, as explicitly allowed by the spell, means you are still capable of coherent thought. A person who sees something happening, but it doesn't register in their brain is not aware. The spell does not tunnel vision them into 'The only option I have is to break the bonds of this spell' because such a tunnel vision is not aware of other things going on around them.

Some definitions of what is means to be aware:
"Having knowledge or perception of a situation or fact."
"Concerned and well-informed about a particular situation or development."

Like knowing you are being held by a spell and knowing you have an ally that could release you from the spell (assuming your BBEG actually has this knowledge and is not metagaming). With that knowledge it isn't a leap to think, 'Come on caster friend, break me out of this. Okay, I hear him casting - excellent now I can move OR dang, his spell failed, struggle against the holding spell.'

Section headings do not define rules. I've had people argue that being able to take an AoO and being able to threaten a square are one and the same thing because they both fall under the section heading of Attacks of Opportunity - yet clearly they are distinct despite falling under that section heading. The actual words of the rules is what defines the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
[SKR] is not even the guy in charge of the rules team.

He's not? Someone lied to me at some point.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
[SKR] is not even the guy in charge of the rules team.
He's not? Someone lied to me at some point.

Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Jason Bulmahn Lead Designer

That mean that Jason Bulmahn is the guy in charge of the rules team, I think, but SKR is a designer and more active in replying to the forum questions.

(I know that probably you were only making a sarcastic comment, but I still felt that is worth specifying)

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