Grapple, Grapple, Grapple!


Rules Questions


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This is from the perspective of a 10th level Fighter, with Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler. Please keep in mind that I've read the rule book, searched these forums, read the FAQ and searched the OSD. I've seen questions like this, but no official answers. I'm hoping that someone can point out something official that I've missed on these questions. I'm not into fluff, so I'm going to get on with the questions.

Quote:

~Quick Glance Reference

Quote:

~Rapid Grappler

Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
Quote:

~Greater Grapple

You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

1. In one round, can I do all three of these actions if I am in range to initiate a grapple?

1.1) Initiate the grapple (standard action)
1.2) Grapple check to (harm, pin, move) with Greater Grapple (move action)
1.3) Grapple check to (tie up) with Rapid Grappler (swift action)

2. Are "Grapple check," "Grapple combat maneuver check," and "Maintaining the grapple" the same thing effectively? If not, what are their key differences?

3. If, in a round that I can use all three grapple actions (standard, move and swift actions) and I succeed at maintaining my grapple (move action), what happens it I fail my 2nd (standard) and 3rd (swift) grapple checks? Does it break my grapple, or do the (2nd and 3rd) grapple actions fail and the grapple condition is maintained?

4. Are the actions (pin, harm, move, tie-up) you can take with a standard grapple, a Greater Grapple grapple, and a Rapid Grappler grapple the same? Are there any of these that you cannot do some (pin, harm, move, tie-up) actions with?

5. Is this true?
Action 1) Maintain grapple as a move action, do any one of these (harm, pin, move, tie-up).
Action 2) Grapple check as a standard action, do any one of these (harm, pin, move, tie-up).
Action 3) Grapple check as a swift action, (harm, pin, move, tie-up).
I know that this may seem like a repeat question, but I'm specifically asking if action 1 is considered a maintain, and actions 2/3 are considered a grapple check. Thus tying in this question with question 2.

I'm interested in source links to either a developer post, or an official rule on these questions. While I would like to hear opinions, they won't solidify these rulings as fact and that is what I need.

Thank you for your time, guys.


Yes. To all of that. Main reason being that for the most part I've seen that all grapple checks aside from checks to break free of or initiate the grapple falls into the same category. Also. It is specifically mentioned when making multiple grapple checks only one needs to succeed in order to maintain the grapple. My current character is a grapller and he did the grab, pin, hog-tie combo to a tiger.


By the way is build specifically for grappling or is it a side thing?

Sczarni

I agree, yes to all. As part of maintaining the grapple you can do the harm, pin, move etc. you just have to initiate the grapple with a standard, then you can use greater and rapid grappler with your move and swift. Your spot on.

I don't have any references for you. I've been poring through the grapple rules on here for a while too and official rulings on some questions seem sparse. I would like your input on this thread as you got good working knowledge of the grapple rules.


One minor disagreement. A "grapple check" or "grapple combat maneuver check" are indeed the same thing.

"Maintaining the grapple" is one of the uses to which a grapple check can be put. But, for example, you couldn't "maintain a grapple" (as a move action) to attempt to escape or reverse a grapple twice on your turn; similarly you couldn't initiate a grapple, fail, and retry as a move action.


Thank you for the responses, folks. And thanks for the link Rover. I'll go over it when I get the chance.

So my understanding is this.

~Assuming this is after you have successfully initiated a grapple, they missed their break/reverse, and it is back to your next turn.

~Start Round
Action 1, movement) Grapple Check (maintain + either move, pin, harm or tie-up)
Action 2, standard) Grapple Check (maintain + either move, pin, harm or tie-up)
Action 3, swift) Grapple Check (maintain + either move, pin, harm or tie-up)
~End Round

All of the terminology and doable actions in this scenario are correct?

Quote:
You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

I feel this insinuates that all grapple checks (outside of grapple initiation) are assumed to have the "maintain" trait. This would mean that you are never declaring a "maintain" as your action, but it is an extra side-effect that triggers when you succeed on a grapple check to perform a grapple ability. Is this a logical assumption?

Again, thank you for you time. The comments and links have been very helpful.


That's how my group plays it. Basically I view it like this. To perform the harm or movement you need to maintain the grapple. So maintaining the grapple is inherent in every check.


I disagree, although much less so with the 2nd to last post.

We agree here: "~Assuming this is after you have successfully initiated a grapple, they missed their break/reverse, and it is back to your next turn."
You can't initiate and then immediately maintain. "Maintaining a Grapple" is what you do on subsequent turns when you choose to continue grappling your target.

Quote:
You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normally when you fail to maintain a grapple, the grapplee becomes free of the grapple. This line from Greater Grapple is to indicate that you: A) do not need to succeed on both checks to keep the grapple going, and B) can fail the first check and still maintain with your standard action grapple check.

B is reading into it slightly - the line could have been intended solely to mean A.

So I would say this:

~Assuming you have successfully initiated a grapple, they missed their break/reverse, and it is back to your next turn, you can:

~Start Round
Action 1, move-equivalent) Grapple Check (maintain + either move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)
Action 2, swift) if #1 successful, Grapple Check (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)
Action 3, standard) Grapple Check (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)
~End Round


By this logic you always get +5 to all grapple checks because all grapple checks are "maintaining a grapple" and any grappler gains "+5 to a grapple check to maintain a grapple".

So clearly, maintaining is not the same as grappling. Maintaining is to "keep someone grappled". Which means they were grappled in the last turn.

So on the first turn you can spend only a standard action to start the grapple. The following turn you get 2 grapple attempts to do with whatever and another 1 if one of those succeeds.

Feel free to correct me.


Change the order. No one said you had to use your move action before your standard action.

Action 1, standard ) Grapple Check (initiate grapple)
Action 2, move equivalent) if #1 successful, maintain grapple (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)
Action 3, swift) if #2 successful, maintain grapple (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)

Scarab Sages

And here I thought "Grapple" was grape flavored Snapple :(


Bomanz wrote:
And here I thought "Grapple" was grape flavored Snapple :(

Ha!

Anyway yes if they fail to break out of the grapple do get the plus 5 to subsequent grapple checks. Of course in my party i,t was widely accepted that once I pinned somebody they were basically out of the fight. They outright ignored casters I caught in a choke hold. By the way do you have snapping title style?


Bomanz wrote:
And here I thought "Grapple" was grape flavored Snapple :(

Ha!

Anyway yes if they fail to break out of the grapple do get the plus 5 to subsequent grapple checks. Of course in my party i,t was widely accepted that once I pinned somebody they were basically out of the fight. They outright ignored casters I caught in a choke hold. By the way do you have snapping turtle style?


Orfamay Quest wrote:

Change the order. No one said you had to use your move action before your standard action.

Action 1, standard ) Grapple Check (initiate grapple)
Action 2, move equivalent) if #1 successful, maintain grapple (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)
Action 3, swift) if #2 successful, maintain grapple (move, pin, harm or tie-up if pinned)

No - you cannot maintain the grapple the same round you initiate it.

PRD, Combat wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.

You can and must maintain the grapple once per round, starting the round after you initiate it. Greater grapple lets you make that maintain check with a move action. It doesn't let you always make a grapple check with a move action.

FYI, the +5 is not specifically "to maintain the grapple", just when the target has not broken free:

PRD wrote:
If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.


where does it say you can't make a check the same round you initiate the grapple?


It doesn't, and it doesn't need to. You are *required* to make the check on the next turn if you don't release the opponent. There is nothing giving you any choice on when to make it at all.


The standard action requirement is assuming you don't have greater grapple and rapid grapple. It also states Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). If you have greater grapple you can still do those things in the same round.

Silver Crusade

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Majuba wrote:
No - you cannot maintain the grapple the same round you initiate it.

Per James Jacobs, it is the intent of Greater Grapple (and by extension Rapid Grappler) to allow multiple grapple checks per round:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kr28?Greater-Grapple-feat-grappled-and-pinned- in#1


Bruno Breakbone wrote:
Majuba wrote:
No - you cannot maintain the grapple the same round you initiate it.
Per James Jacobs, it is the intent of Greater Grapple (and by extension Rapid Grappler) to allow multiple grapple checks per round:

Of course it is - I didn't say otherwise. Just not in the round you initiated it because you're not maintaining that round.

I respectfully disagree with JJ on that one - Greater Grapple specifically makes only the check to maintain a move action. Thank you for the link though. A FAQ would certainly make it more clear, but I truly do not think the intention is to allow someone to go from un-grappled to tied up in a single round of actions.

Chaotic: That text follows the description of the "maintain" check (which is referenced in your quote). It's restating what came before, and leading in to your options upon succeeding at the check to maintain.


Yes, but allowing multiple grapples per round does not mean you're allowed multiple grapples *every* round.

Methinks Majuba is saying you only get the one on round one, then multiple from that point on (I kinda agree with him on this, the wording does seem to fit).

Others are arguing that you can 'maintain' on round one with greater grapple.

(Is James Jacobs saying its the intent, or how he interprets it?)
The quote from JJ is confusing, he is saying something the feat does not... ie: he's implying the wording of the feat is 'can make a grapple check as a move action' ... when in fact the feat says 'can maintain a grapple as a move action' ...

Thus the arguments are about whether maintaining is a subset of grapple checks are equivalent to a grapple check... as well as whether you can maintain more then once a round.

Its important to note the language in the feats:
Greater Grapple - move action to maintain a grapple
Rapid Grappler - if you successfully use greater grapple to maintain a grapple, you can use a swift action to perform a grapple combat maneuver.

Ihe later seems to indicate there is definitely a difference between maintaining a grapple and a regular grapple maneuver.

Seems like there's alot of interpretation and assumptions going around about these feats.


Well put EvilMinion. Would you like to formulate that into a question for FAQ'ing?


Greater grapple says it allows you to "make two grapple maneuver checks eatch round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent.)" and rapid grappler says that after you maintain as a move action you can make a GRAPPLE combat MANEUVER CHECK. The difference is slight with the addition of the word combat but I would agree that in pathfinder world that requires some clarification.

While I still hold to the fact that you can do all three maneuvers on the first round provided appropriate circumstances.

Silver Crusade

JJ's answer was flagged for FAQ and tagged, "Staff response: no reply required." So, his interpretation jibes with the Devs' intents.


Well then that settles that one.


Quote:

1. In one round, can I do all three of these actions if I am in range to initiate a grapple?

1.1) Initiate the grapple (standard action)
1.2) Grapple check to (harm, pin, move) with Greater Grapple (move action)
1.3) Grapple check to (tie up) with Rapid Grappler (swift action)

Yes

Quote:
2. Are "Grapple check," "Grapple combat maneuver check," and "Maintaining the grapple" the same thing effectively? If not, what are their key differences?

They are effectively same thing

Quote:
3. If, in a round that I can use all three grapple actions (standard, move and swift actions) and I succeed at maintaining my grapple (move action), what happens it I fail my 2nd (standard) and 3rd (swift) grapple checks? Does it break my grapple, or do the (2nd and 3rd) grapple actions fail and the grapple condition is maintained?

You only need 1 succesful check to maintain the grapple. Note if you are using Rapid Grapple you have already succeded with a check

Quote:
4. Are the actions (pin, harm, move, tie-up) you can take with a standard grapple, a Greater Grapple grapple, and a Rapid Grappler grapple the same?

Yes

Quote:

5. Is this true?

Action 1) Maintain grapple as a move action, do any one of these (harm, pin, move, tie-up).
Action 2) Grapple check as a standard action, do any one of these (harm, pin, move, tie-up).
Action 3) Grapple check as a swift action, (harm, pin, move, tie-up).

For this sequence to be true you would have to have started the round already as the grappler but otherwise I think it works. I think it's a little funny that the standard action is taken before the swift. It should probably just for clarity sake be Move -> (possible) Swift -> Standard in terms of actions taken.

Link for people

Thread with a James Jacob Quote


Avianfoo wrote:

By this logic you always get +5 to all grapple checks because all grapple checks are "maintaining a grapple" and any grappler gains "+5 to a grapple check to maintain a grapple".

So clearly, maintaining is not the same as grappling. Maintaining is to "keep someone grappled". Which means they were grappled in the last turn.

So on the first turn you can spend only a standard action to start the grapple. The following turn you get 2 grapple attempts to do with whatever and another 1 if one of those succeeds.

Feel free to correct me.

No, I'm pretty sure the Grappling rules specify that you need to maintain a Grapple for a whole round to enjoy your +5 circumstance bonus the next round. The bonus, furthermore, will not grow on subsequent rounds because circumstance bonuses don't stack.

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