There's a buncha threads about the "Big 6" already. The consensus is generally:
Magic weapon
Magic armor
Stat boosting item (Belts/Headbands of Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha)
Cloak of Resistances
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Varies a bit by class (Monks swap Magic Armor with Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor for the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and get f!%!ed for weapons. Pearls of Power for Wizards, and so on) but those are generally the items the game expects you to have by a given level.
You don't need to keep those maxed out. It just makes the game easier, just like having a better character overall makes the game easier. You can survive without the best choices.
1e and 2e, magic items could be rare because most of the enemies weren't all that strong, relatively speaking.
in 1E, a level 10 fighter was a viable opponent for EVERY creature in the monster manual. Including Demon Lords. A level 10 paladin was entitled to be wielding a +5 holy avenger!
Yes, you could do away with much 'required' loot by putting in various auto-scaling features. 4E did that with automatic stat buffs. It IS useful. Just figure out how you want to apply the stats by level, and you're fine.
Just realize that most of the 'must-have' stuff tops out around level 15, NOT at level 20. The exceptions are generally weapons, since they cost so much, but generally speaking, after 15 you invest in non-essential, cool stuff, as opposed to the stat stuff you need to survive. i.e. you've got the +5 armor, now you put fortification on it, and so forth.
There's also the problem that stat buffs pre-10th tend to be small (+2, +4 to your best) and after 10th tend to accumulate rapidly. So, you have to figure out a proper spacing.
==Aelryinth
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Remember that the characteristic enhancing items that a few forum goers seem to hate are very different from having your character characteristic increasing in a semi fixed way based on your class.
As thinks stand now I can chose to buys a item that increase the charisma of my magus simply because I want to make it better at social skills and in using his social abilities. Or a wisdom enhancing item because I want better will sawing throw.
If we substitute them with automatic characteristic advancement as some people suggest we will lose that kind of flexibility.
Remember that the characteristic enhancing items that a few forum goers seem to hate are very different from having your character characteristic increasing in a semi fixed way based on your class.
As thinks stand now I can chose to buys a item that increase the charisma of my magus simply because I want to make it better at social skills and in using his social abilities. Or a wisdom enhancing item because I want better will sawing throw.
If we substitute them with automatic characteristic advancement as some people suggest we will lose that kind of flexibility.
4e, tge example given, you might increase Cha with your magus for whatever reason you chosed to buy a Cha Headband for him.
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@TGMaxMaxer I haven't cited you because youw ere proposing something different. There is a lot of people in this forum that has proposed to incorporate the acquisition of the basic magic items in the characters progression.
@iglesias
I don't know how 4e work, the first time I have read the hype about "an ability that you can use once every time you die." I have discarded the idea of trying it.
What is the cost to get that Cha increase instead of another ability?
For my magus it is relatively negligible, a small fraction of his WBL, if in 4e I must trade the possibility to increase my most useful characteristic to increasing a secondary characteristic by the same amount it has a very high cost
Even if you go after "the big 6" items you still have to make a choise - do I go for AC, saves, to hit or more dam?
A class with only light armor prof. might want a +4 armor before the guy in the full plate, who needs more dam... ¨
WBL items can only be optimized with respect to class.
@TGMaxMaxer I haven't cited you because youw ere proposing something different. There is a lot of people in this forum that has proposed to incorporate the acquisition of the basic magic items in the characters progression.
@iglesias
I don't know how 4e work, the first time I have read the hype about "an ability that you can use once every time you die." I have discarded the idea of trying it.
What is the cost to get that Cha increase instead of another ability?
For my magus it is relatively negligible, a small fraction of his WBL, if in 4e I must trade the possibility to increase my most useful characteristic to increasing a secondary characteristic by the same amount it has a very high cost
In 4th you raise two stats every 4th level, and all stats by 1 at 11th and 21st. You can raise your Cha instead of your secondary stat and keep bumping your main stat. Also, you can raise your cha-related stuff (like circlet of persuasion does)
There was thread on advice for new PFS players a while back, and it included a few (required) items, including cloaks of resistance. A cloak of resistance is worth having, but I think it should be a nice bonus instead of a necessity. To be fair, the required items might be in the context of "required for some of the more challenging PFS adventures."So the list of optimized items is available in other threads, and there are other threads on optimized items. I argue that the discussion on magic item hate was less relevant in 3E, as much as I loved 3E there were huge power differences between some of the classes and prestige classes. The difference between a high level wizard with an Apparatus of the Crab and Instant Fortress vs a high level wizard with a pearl of power, robes of the archmagi, and headband of int was less than the difference between druid and bard. So we have the luxury of discussing the finer points of optimizing equipment.
Perhaps an item being "required" is too limiting a way to look at it, by defining the solution instead of the underlying problem.
The underlying problem is that, by certain levels, if you haven't applied some means to increase (for example) your saving throws (specifically if your Will save is weak) you will likely find yourself ridiculously vulnerable to devastating attacks from your challenging enemies.
in this example, a cloak of resistance is "required" only because it is the most direct and least expensive means to address the underlying issue.
There are options... sacrificing feats and level progression to dip into classes that could improve your weak saves is an option it is just an option that negatively impacts so many other areas of a character most people dismiss it out of hand.
Still someone could creatively choose an unorthodox combination of class choices, feat choices, and magic items, and end up accommodating a character that avoids one or two of the 'big 6' items. It just costs so much in other ways, all the good advice echos, "you really want to buy these 6 items... trust us"
Perhaps an item being "required" is too limiting a way to look at it, by defining the solution instead of the underlying problem.
The underlying problem is that, by certain levels, if you haven't applied some means to increase (for example) your saving throws (specifically if your Will save is weak) you will likely find yourself ridiculously vulnerable to devastating attacks from your challenging enemies.
in this example, a cloak of resistance is "required" only because it is the most direct and least expensive means to address the underlying issue.
There are options... sacrificing feats and level progression to dip into classes that could improve your weak saves is an option it is just an option that negatively impacts so many other areas of a character most people dismiss it out of hand.
Still someone could creatively choose an unorthodox combination of class choices, feat choices, and magic items, and end up accommodating a character that avoids one or two of the 'big 6' items. It just costs so...
A good example of that, was the 3.0 paladin. Back then, Cloack of Charisma was competing with Cloack of resistance. Paladins ussually get more bang for their bucks with a cloack of Charisma, because they get a Save bonus from it regardless (although less cost-effective), and also get a bunch of other stuff
A good example of that, was the 3.0 paladin. Back then, Cloack of Charisma was competing with Cloack of resistance. Paladins ussually get more bang for their bucks with a cloack of Charisma, because they get a Save bonus from it regardless (although less cost-effective), and also get a bunch of other stuffPerhaps an item being "required" is too limiting a way to look at it, by defining the solution instead of the underlying problem.
The underlying problem is that, by certain levels, if you haven't applied some means to increase (for example) your saving throws (specifically if your Will save is weak) you will likely find yourself ridiculously vulnerable to devastating attacks from your challenging enemies.
in this example, a cloak of resistance is "required" only because it is the most direct and least expensive means to address the underlying issue.
There are options... sacrificing feats and level progression to dip into classes that could improve your weak saves is an option it is just an option that negatively impacts so many other areas of a character most people dismiss it out of hand.
Still someone could creatively choose an unorthodox combination of class choices, feat choices, and magic items, and end up accommodating a character that avoids one or two of the 'big 6' items. It just costs so...
Then again Cloak of Cha/Resistance existed (in Buldar's gate PC game) so you can get both.
An aditional problem is that tge big six is terribly cost efective. While several of the "fun" magic stuff (like horn of blasting) is horribly overpriced for its effect Let's compare a periapt of wound closure, with a cloak of protecion +4 for example.
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One of the cool things about 1E and 2E is that magic items were rare, and getting a magic item was a big deal.
Scandalous lies! Did you play any of those old modules, the ones where every single encounter dropped a bunch of magic loot in your lap (90% of which you would never want, granted...)?
There's this muzzy perception that magic items were rare and special, but you could walk out of B1 and B2 with *buckets* full of magical loot, and still be only 3rd or 4th level, and by the time Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth rolled around, it seemed like every room had another three to five items in it. (We shall never speak of the Drow with their cruel and sadistic rots-in-sunlight Drow-only items. <Spits>)
I blame Frodo, the 'junk lady' of magic loot, who got his first magic item before leaving the house, and picked up a magic sword, a mithril shirt, boots and cloak of elvenkind and a glowing bottle of starlight halfway through the first book.
Meanwhile, all Boromir got was a horn that summons help 1d4 rounds after you die.
3E's WBL was cool because you were guaranteed to get magic items. I've seen threads on the "magic treadmill" effect, where you need to keep upgrading stat boosting items, cloaks of resistance, etc. Some of the (imo) more fun items, like the Apparatus of the Crab, Folding Boat, Instant Fortress, and Decanter of Endless Water are tough to include in your WBL spending nowadays.
Now that I surely agree with. Magic items that add pluses to saves or attack & damage rolls or armor class or attributes are all so factored into what you 'need,' that magic items that actually feel *magical,* like carpets of flying or cloaks of the manta seem to be left by the wayside. (Sure, cheaper stuff like handy haversacks or hats of disguise are common, but the big ticket items that aren't big six tend to get left behind.)
A stripped down version of d20 could at least partially ameliorate some of this by getting rid of a *bunch* of 'bonus types' and just having most bonuses be non-stacking enhancement bonuses. No luck. No intuition. No alchemical. No competence. No divine / sacred / profane. There'd be less call for items that grant pluses if they didn't stack with pretty much every buff out there, resulting in them being less useful for classes or parties that have decent buffing options (like Rage or Bardic Inspiration) already.
Then again, that might just further ghetto-ize classes that don't have any self-buffing options, like Fighters and Rogues, and force them to blow their WBL on stat/save/etc. buffing items, while casters laugh and laugh... Eh. Perhaps a built-in series of pluses (or just tweaking CR expectations for no +save or +AC or +atk/dam items) would work better.
Alternately, instead of an item giving a plus to hit or saves or whatever, a 'ring of resistance' might give a reroll on a failed save of Type X (Reflex for instance) a number of times per day, and a 'magic sword' might allow a reroll once per day on a missed hit, with additional uses, or uses to reroll damage, depending on how powerful the weapon is. Then again, that might just be re-arranging deck chairs, as everyone clamors for those items, and *still* ignores the bag of tricks or rod of wonder....
You don't need to keep those maxed out. It just makes the game easier, just like having a better character overall makes the game easier. You can survive without the best choices.
That's true at low levels. Ypu can succeed in a AP without +1 to hit from your maguc sword. But at high levels, you need those items. The difference between having +6 Bracers, +5 sword and +1 Ioun stone, or not having them is +9 to hit. Agaist high AC monsters, that's tge difference between hitting with 11+ or 20. Not counting factors like ignoring DR or not.
At low levels, a headband of +2 and ring of Prot +1 or a few non-stat magic items isn't game breaking. But the big six is just more cost effective
I stand corrected. But in 1E and 2E I played characters up to level six or seven before getting a magic item, in homebrew campaigns. Actually, we got potions of cure and consumables but no magic items, armor, or wondrous items..
But that's because your DM. I played a crazy monty haul AD&D2e campaign where my lvl 10 fighter had a vorpal, brilliance helm, etherealness armor and giant belt among several other stuff and I was actually the poorer character.
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If we ever see a Pathfinder 1.5 or Pathfinder 2.0 edition, I'd love to see some of the "bland" items undergo revision to make them more interesting.
Stat-boosting items are absolutely one of the most desirable items to get for a PC with their first 4,000gp. To infuse them with a little more flavor, perhaps these could ALL be given additional things they do, and the price bumped up to reflect that?
I'm pretty sure the game doesn't break (and in fact becomes more balanced, since in home campaigns, I already increase the base cost of all belts and headbands by 50%) by bumping the cost to 6,000gp and giving them more flavor.
For example, a Belt of Str/Dex/Con could also grant a single skill as a given class skill (i.e. Swimming, Climbing), or they could grant an additional bonus to a Fort save (i.e. a Belt of Con could grant +2 saves vs poison), or a situational bonus (i.e. bonus to break down doors). It's not a lot, but its enough that you repair some of the yawn-worthy moments of someone's 6th PC picking up their 6th headband/belt and that item losing some its luster.
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One of the cool things about 1E and 2E is that magic items were rare, and getting a magic item was a big deal.Scandalous lies! Did you play any of those old modules, the ones where every single encounter dropped a bunch of magic loot in your lap (90% of which you would never want, granted...)?
I think that the real change was that suddently with 3.x, those magic items became EXPECTED in order for the character to be decently viable. This wasn't really the case in the prior editions, beyond giving the martial characters a magic weapon so that they could affect monsters that were immune to non-magical weapons. There may have been just as much magical treasure, but the party would actually use the fun and interesting stuff, instead of just writing everything that wasn't a "Big 6" item or a consumable off as a trade-in.
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Wake and I sit on opposite ends of the very tedious 'bland' item discussion. I shall not bore the board with reliving it in post. For this discussion, I'll concede that folks want to make these items more interesting.
That being said, the minor bonuses idea to the stat boosting items simply adds power creep to already good items, even with additional cost.
If you wish diversity and uniqueness, perhaps think about introducing flaws with those stat boosting items such that players will need to think a bit before getting their favored mechanical benefit. The flaws could even be something as minor as a effect that has no mechanical impact but will alter the way one rp's the character.
As an added bonus, this already exists in game and does not need any adjustments to existing items.
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When I ran 3E I'd give the party a pool of magic items that didn't count towards any of the players' WBL. So I always gave them a Bag of Holding, and once I gave them an Apparatus of the Crab (for an underwater adventure, but they got to keep the apparatus (which they never used again)).
This is exactly the idea that came to my mind reading this thread.
Give each player a WBL-like pool for him to play with for his PC's use and set aside another gp-pool for the whole group to get flavorful magic items.
Now I am wondering how to keep this in harmony with WBL and CR to keep the encounters working.
I already warned my future players in Jade Regent that their PCs' wealth would be below the WBL and I banned Crafting feats (as all GMs in my playing group do).
So maybe I can give each PC a wealth pool roughly 80% of the WBL and the group-pool will complete it up to the wealth they would get if they had a crafter in the party.
Anyone knows the current rules for WBL with a crafter ?
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One of the cool things about 1E and 2E is that magic items were rare, and getting a magic item was a big deal.Scandalous lies! Did you play any of those old modules, the ones where every single encounter dropped a bunch of magic loot in your lap (90% of which you would never want, granted...)?
There's this muzzy perception that magic items were rare and special, but you could walk out of B1 and B2 with *buckets* full of magical loot, and still be only 3rd or 4th level, and by the time Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth rolled around, it seemed like every room had another three to five items in it. (We shall never speak of the Drow with their cruel and sadistic rots-in-sunlight Drow-only items. <Spits>)
On the other hand, the 2e DMG specified that creating one's own magic items wasn't possible 'til 10th or 12th level and that the DM should assign a series of 'impossible' tasks to make the PCs really work for the item they wanted.
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On the other hand, the 2e DMG specified that creating one's own magic items wasn't possible 'til 10th or 12th level and that the DM should assign a series of 'impossible' tasks to make the PCs really work for the item they wanted.
Oh true. Indeed that's one of the most egregious things about the crazy piles of random crap you'd found, is that making a permanent magic item meant someone 11th level or higher *lost a permanent Con point* enchanting that sucker.
Every time you found a +1 bardiche or similarly niche item, that represented 10% of the life of some name level wizard or cleric!
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When I ran 3E I'd give the party a pool of magic items that didn't count towards any of the players' WBL. So I always gave them a Bag of Holding, and once I gave them an Apparatus of the Crab (for an underwater adventure, but they got to keep the apparatus (which they never used again)).This is exactly the idea that came to my mind reading this thread.
Give each player a WBL-like pool for him to play with for his PC's use and set aside another gp-pool for the whole group to get flavorful magic items.
Now I am wondering how to keep this in harmony with WBL and CR to keep the encounters working.
I already warned my future players in Jade Regent that their PCs' wealth would be below the WBL and I banned Crafting feats (as all GMs in my playing group do).
So maybe I can give each PC a wealth pool roughly 80% of the WBL and the group-pool will complete it up to the wealth they would get if they had a crafter in the party.
Anyone knows the current rules for WBL with a crafter ?
Ultimate Campaign suggest about +25% for 1 feat and up to +50% for multiple feats.