"Sean is a developer. That's what "designer" means."
Then why do some guys have the title "developer" and not designer?
Designer could be art layout. No offense to Sean, but would like to see Jacobs chime in.
And if this is the case, the rule I mean, what's with all the hate to the monk and "nerfing" him?
And that still doesn't answer that to use brass knuckles you still have to do an unarmed strike by the weapons description.
That's why it says "see text" unlike gauntlets
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Amulet of Mighty Fists got cheaper, and the enhancement bonuses now allow you to bypass DR if high enough.
So, Monks got a little better over time.
Just to reiterate, the only weapon that deal unarmed strike damage, is the unarmed strike.
This is true, but the sad fact is that with the changes the monk is still a long way behind his peers.
They just need to bump the AoMF to +10 and get it over with. It's not going to be gamebreaking but it will certainly bring less frustration.
They won't, because ironically the AoMF IS correctly priced and powered - it's just that monks cannot make the most of it. The AoMF is best used by monsters and animals. The bodywraps of mighty strikes are best used by combatants that do not have the flurry-of-blows class feature. The problem is that the monk's unarmed strike itself needs fixing, not the items it's used with.
When I think of skilled martial artists in the real world, I fondly remember how often they rely on brass knuckles to be true badasses.
I agree, it's not the items that need fixing, it's the class. Monks cannot, currently, manage "badass" in the company of just about any other martial class, because the class is weak and ill-thought out. Some archetypes manage it, but even their performance is merely OK - and they do it by giving up the monk's most iconic class features.
I have to concede on Sean's title, he is listed as a "developer" on UE's credits
So ok Sean, question then, are you saying you can use Brass Knuckles WITHOUT performing an unarmed strike?
And if so can you logically explain the thought process behind it without simply stating "it's how we wrote it in the rules"?
And if you have to use an Unarmed strike to use them, why then isn't it, well, an unarmed strike?
And last question: why did you (the staff not you personally) change the item from
Both APG and Adventurers Armory to what is presented in UE? Why the nerf?
If they worked that way, you'd also have the absolutely ridiculous thing that is monks requiring weapons to fight 'unarmed'.
When you think about it, it does make sense. Brass knuckles help with your punches, but that's for boxer.
Monks are martial artists. A martial artist doesn't just punch. It includes knife hand strikes, strikes with elbows and knees, torque attacks, and kicks. Brass knuckles don't help with any of those, and hinder some of them.
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If they worked that way, you'd also have the absolutely ridiculous thing that is monks requiring weapons to fight 'unarmed'.
When you think about it, it does make sense. Brass knuckles help with your punches, but that's for boxer.
Monks are martial artists. A martial artist doesn't just punch. It includes knife hand strikes, strikes with elbows and knees, torque attacks, and kicks. Brass knuckles don't help with any of those, and hinder some of them.
The RAI and Real-World concept is certainly there and clear. The RAW is not, unfortunately. :T
If they worked that way, you'd also have the absolutely ridiculous thing that is monks requiring weapons to fight 'unarmed'.
When you think about it, it does make sense. Brass knuckles help with your punches, but that's for boxer.
Monks are martial artists. A martial artist doesn't just punch. It includes knife hand strikes, strikes with elbows and knees, torque attacks, and kicks. Brass knuckles don't help with any of those, and hinder some of them.
Unless, of course, you decide your monk just punches people. Your monk could most certainly be a boxer as well.
Of course, unless you're doing PFS, your group can (like mine has) choose to ignore that errata.
P.S. When I think of real-world martial artists, I certainly don't think of teleporting and talking to plants, so that's a non-argument.
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If you have no idea who SKR is, you are very new.
Also, as a reminder, this is a six month old thread, so some things may have changed.
A mighty oak grows from a humble acorn, and is in turn cut down for firewood. Nations rise and fall. In time, every mountain will be flattened and every seabed a valley. But Sean K. Reynolds still hates monks. Because one stole his girlfriend.
A mighty oak grows from a humble acorn, and is in turn cut down for firewood. Nations rise and fall. In time, every mountain will be flattened and every seabed a valley. But Sean K. Reynolds still hates monks. Because one stole his girlfriend.If you have no idea who SKR is, you are very new.
Also, as a reminder, this is a six month old thread, so some things may have changed.
You got a well earned laugh out of me. +1.
More on topic, the way I've always ruled it is that you can enchant fist wraps as weapons, and use them with your unarmed strike. Doesn't come into conflict with fluff, the way brass knuckles might, and makes it so monks aren't completely screwed over by unarmed fighting, rather than using a weapon.
With this change, it seems there's very little reason to use anything but AoMF unless you have only a few monk levels. Though I do agree that as gauntlet/brass knuckles were written there was no reason to use anything BUT those. Both ways seem wrong, this much division in the power of your "choices" really means there are no choices.
Makes me wish they'd never changed flurry to be usable with a single weapon. Then they likely would've left the "unarmed" weapons alone and we'd have options more balanced with each other.
Ok here's a question, it states in the CRB under Monks Unarmed Strikes:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Now though it might be reading into it, would then this not also apply to enhancement bonuses paid for like magic weapons +1, +2 etc directly on the monk since his unarmed strikes like the rule states are to be treated as manufactured weapons for the purpose of effects that enhance weapons?
Seems silly I know, but so is calling brass knuckles a light weapon.
Ok here's a question, it states in the CRB under Monks Unarmed Strikes:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Now though it might be reading into it, would then this not also apply to enhancement bonuses paid for like magic weapons +1, +2 etc directly on the monk since his unarmed strikes like the rule states are to be treated as manufactured weapons for the purpose of effects that enhance weapons?
If one can find a way to masterwork one's hands, then why not?
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Ok here's a question, it states in the CRB under Monks Unarmed Strikes:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Now though it might be reading into it, would then this not also apply to enhancement bonuses paid for like magic weapons +1, +2 etc directly on the monk since his unarmed strikes like the rule states are to be treated as manufactured weapons for the purpose of effects that enhance weapons?
Seems silly I know, but so is calling brass knuckles a light weapon.
Negative. One cannot make his limbs masterwork/enhanced in such a way.
If someone casted Strong Jaw, Greater Magic Fang, or Lead Blades on your IUS, that would certainly work.
I'm not sure what they mean when they state "Spells and Effects". The "Effects" part makes me wonder what an "Effect" would count as.
What about the cleric spell that transforms things into masterwork quality? Again the monks unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for purposes of SPELLS that enhance or improve weapons?
Isn't that falling directly under the description?
Sean is the most vocal rules guy, but he is NOT solely in charge of the rules, and Jason still has to approve everything they work on together. I am stating this because he get blamed a lot just for being the messenger. <---Just a reminder. Carry on with the discussion.
Personally allowing monk a slotless item that enhances his unarmed strikes just like the AMF would have been a good idea in my opinion, but maybe they thought giving the monk 5(amulet of natural armor) more AC would cause other problems.
As soon as the spell wore off, you'd lose it though, by RAW.
By Rule of Cool, though, I'd certainly let someone magic their fists without fussing over masterwork and such.
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What about the cleric spell that transforms things into masterwork quality? Again the monks unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for purposes of SPELLS that enhance or improve weapons?
Isn't that falling directly under the description?
You mean:
MAGIC WEAPONSchool transmutation; Level cleric 1, paladin 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target weapon touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.
You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.
I suppose that combined with a Permanency spell it would make it's duration endless until dispelled by some butthat...? I'm not too keen on combinations like this one yet. I haven't dabbled very far from Martials and Druids.
However, this still doesn't make it a Masterwork item, as Masterwork is still a pre-req for enhancing an item any further; if memory serves correctly. So, while it would be magical, you still couldn't enchant it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
I think he meant Masterwork Transformation.
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No, they mean:
Masterwork Transformation
School transmutation; Level bard 2, cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2Casting Time: 1 hour
Components: V, S, M (see below)
Range: touch
Target: one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: no
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves' tools becomes masterwork thieves' tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. You can affect 50 pieces of ammunition as if they were one weapon. You decide if the object's appearance changes to reflect this improved quality.Now it depends on the GM on wether "monk fists count as manufactured weapons" allows them to qualify for this spell.
See! I told you I wasn't super keen on this stuff haha. I need to read up more on Inquisitor and Cleric spells.
There is ONE qualm in it's writing. "If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect." I'd say that's your only problem with this spell. Otherwise, if that is bypassed somehow, then the GM better allow you to enchant your fists!
I have to concede on Sean's title, he is listed as a "developer" on UE's credits
Just to clarify for anyone else reading this thread and not aware:
All of the above is AFAIK (as far as I know).
Yeah the equivalent thing stands out, however, if the unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, ALL manufactured weapons have masterwork equivalents....even a brass knuckle or gauntlet, but since UE trumps even UM, under master work weapons in UE it states:
The masterwork transformation spell (Ultimate Magic) transforms a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon.
No mention of the non equivalency, and since brass knuckles don't work like they used to because of a change in wording in UE can then not the same logic apply here, the wording has changed, UE states the spell can change any non masterwork weapon (and a monks unarmed strikes are to be considered manufactured weapons) into masterwork weapons.
Combined with the changes already made, simply changing the Amulet of Mighty Fists item slot to "body" or "wrist" (body wraps of mighty fists, say) would go a long way towards fixing the problem.
Or if they went back and just gave monks enchant able gloves or, here it comes, put the brass knuckles back to the way they were
I think most monk players if not all, would rather see an enchant able fist slot with unarmed strikes using the monks damage and just get rid of amulet of mighty strikes
Or if they went back and just gave monks enchant able gloves or, here it comes, put the brass knuckles back to the way they were
Unless you're doing PFS, your table is free to ignore the change.
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Yeah the equivalent thing stands out, however, if the unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, ALL manufactured weapons have masterwork equivalents....even a brass knuckle or gauntlet, but since UE trumps even UM, under master work weapons in UE it states:
The masterwork transformation spell (Ultimate Magic) transforms a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon.No mention of the non equivalency, and since brass knuckles don't work like they used to because of a change in wording in UE can then not the same logic apply here, the wording has changed, UE states the spell can change any non masterwork weapon (and a monks unarmed strikes are to be considered manufactured weapons) into masterwork weapons.
All manufactured weapons DO have Masterwork Equivalents. Unarmed Strikes are not manufactured weapons and do not have a Masterwork equivalent out there.
The spell being the most specific rule we are talking about(trumping both UE and UM), and gaining the most precedence, specifically states that the weapon you are trying to use it on, must have a Masterwork Equivalent BEFORE anything else is taken into consideration. There is no Masterwork version(Unarmed Strike +1) of an Unarmed Strike, anywhere, as far as I know. It would become Masterwork AFTER you used the enchantment, but there must be a Masterwork Version previously available somewhere in the universe, First.
I get what you're saying.
Unarmed Strike is considered a Manufactured Weapon for the sake of Spells and Effects to actually affect it. Confirmed.
That is step 1 to the validation of the chosen spell/effect. Step 2, we've chosen what we want to effect our Unarmed Strike. This spell that we've chosen, specifically calls out that the Weapon of choice, must have a Masterwork Version available somewhere, at some market, on someone's workbench, somewhere in the rulebooks and/or equipment sections, and/or in the somewhere in the universe. Such an item as a Masterwork Unarmed Strike +1 does not exist. The spell cannot apply because of this.
I'm sure we will both read in on it how we want for decades, but that's how I see the RAW of it. Maybe you should start a thread on it, and request a FAQ? I'd like to see the outcome.
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Honestly, I'd rather just cut out the middleman and just allow weapon-slot Handwraps, which provide no benefits to combat (unlike brass knuckles, which do), except that they can be made masterwork and enhanced as weapons. The Amulet can still exist for those who wish to use it with natural attacks.
This.
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Personally allowing monk a slotless item that enhances his unarmed strikes just like the AMF would have been a good idea in my opinion, but maybe they thought giving the monk 5(amulet of natural armor) more AC would cause other problems.
Which makes giving the qingong monk access to barkskin a rather illogical act. On the flip side one thing they seem adamantly against is allowing the monk any other means of enhancing the unarmed strike by any other means. Which is kind of daft; why let it be enhanced by spell, by ability, by item of anyone other than the monk? Other 3/4 BAB classes self-buff their attacks (except the rogue), why deliberately prevent the monk doing so?
My own fix to the problem is to make ki-strike an actual enhancement bonus. Problem solved; AoMF just provides properties.
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On the flip side one thing they seem adamantly against is allowing the monk any other means of enhancing the unarmed strike by any other means. Which is kind of daft; why let it be enhanced by spell, by ability, by item of anyone other than the monk? Other 3/4 BAB classes self-buff their attacks (except the rogue), why deliberately prevent the monk doing so?
My own fix to the problem is to make ki-strike an actual enhancement bonus. Problem solved; AoMF just provides properties.
Speaking of, I am writing a Revamp of the Qinggong Powers and I plan on proposing it it after many drafts. Not to sound hopeful, as if it would ever be accepted or even partially accepted. I'm still going to get it out there though.
They just need to bump the AoMF to +10 and get it over with. It's not going to be gamebreaking but it will certainly bring less frustration.
It was capped at +5 in 3.5 primarily because of cost (150K for +5, +6 would have been over the 200k epic line). I'd probably allow +7 (196K) in a home game by the same measure.
Well I did ask the team to explain why knuckles aren't to be considered unarmed strikes but you have to use a unarmed strike to use them, your performing a punch. Or explain why they feel monks needed so much nerfing as to take away the knuckles and only give a not very efficient way of compensating t the cost of a major ac enhancing slot. Which monks need as well. Sure double the cost of knuckles to enchant, state they have to be on each fist, but to take them away and call them light weapons that you can't wield anything in that hand but them, now they are space filler on a page since gauntlets do everything they do and none of the downside. If the argument is going to be a change of wording, then you have to apply that across the board.
We talk of RAI all the time, taking away the knuckles old ability simply doesn't make sense logically.
We need a second review by the dev team. It's not like monks are OP, so what gives?
It's not like monks are OP, so what gives?
The devs have said that the monk is a weak class and needs fixing. But they don't have time/it would be too much trouble/they have other projects that will be delayed/etc.
So a lot of us are proposing our own house rules for fixing the monk in various threads, in the hope that one of those changes will work as intended without being overpowered, and that the devs will finally take notice.
Honestly, I was hoping that the new class guide would rectify the issue, but instead they just introduce the brawler to rub in the fact that the monk is not the best class for being a monk. And it's STILL got all the same issues as the monk's unarmed strike, although reduced.
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Except in that case the devs would have to be braindead, because as is the Monk already works best when holding a weapon in his hands.I meant in the sense of "how do brass knuckles improve the damage of a kick".
How does a ring make your whole body invisible?
Or if they went back and just gave monks enchant able gloves or, here it comes, put the brass knuckles back to the way they were
Body wraps are better, lest you end up with weird debates about monks only gaining benefits while punching with their fists.
Problem with the body wraps is that they only effect one strike. Again more nerf age for the monk, even though I think it's a little wierd, Sean's explanation seemed to lean toward the whole "the wording has changed" . Well yes it's wierd but again by that same logic we could interpret that by the changing of the wording in UE, Mastetwork transformation effects a monk since his UA strikes are manufactured weapons.
Did they intend this? Probably not, I am simply using re logic that was given but applied to this to illustrate that it wasn't a good reason given. But a loophole it could be....
And here's a thought, if they acknowledge the monk is weaker than intended, then rather than nerfing him further, leave things the way they were and fix them when you can, changing the knuckles did nothing but hurt the monk further.
Or, lol, come out and say that monks can be enchanted like a weapon, per what UE hints at, then again fix it.....when you have time :)