Using a Two-handed Weapon One-handed with Other Feats


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

With the recent FAQ ruling from the Pathfinder Design Team regarding Power Attack and using two-handed weapons one-handed, I would like to know if the same logic should be applied to other feats that involve two-handed weapons. In comparing the wording for Power Attack and the feats below, it would make sense that they should

My interest is due to having a dwarf character in Pathfinder Society who is using a dorn-dergar from Dwarves of Golarion with the Dorn-dergar Master feat.

These are the feats I could find related to two-handed weapons.

Furious Focus (Combat) (APG):
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.

Pushing Assault* (APG):
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.

Shield of Swings (Combat) (APG):
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn.

Raging Hurler (Ultimate Combat):
Benefit: While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.

Liberty's Edge

I don't see how these four feats have anything to do with the FAQ considering they are all using a two-handed weapon in two hands.

Furthermore, the dorn-dergar master feat indicates that the chain-flail can be used as a one-handed weapon. This would preclude the FAQ from being applicable. A thread has been started to FAQ this point, but I think it is the prevailing thought.


Titan Mauler archetype pretty well explains using an oversized weapon. In this case, a two handed weapon in 1 hand is an oversized weapon for 1 hand.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

HangarFlying wrote:
I don't see how these four feats have anything to do with the FAQ

Pretty much this. What are you talking about, RedDogMT?

Grand Lodge

Uh, what exactly are you asking about these feats?


I was not aware of this FAQ. This makes me happy for the staff magus build I was contemplating.

It actually is a pretty interesting for a monk too, you could flurry with a quarterstaff 1 handed with quarterstaff master and still have 1 hand free for crane style for defense

Grand Lodge

I think I see it. Yes, all four of those feats/abilities apply whenever you are wielding a two-handed weapon, even if you are wielding it in one hand.

If you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand and also have Raging Hurler, you can throw it with one hand as a standard action and do all the other things the feat allows.

If you are holding a two-handed weapon in one hand, but don't have a game ability that allows you to wield it in one hand, none of these feats apply.

edit: However, I would suggest you consult an official source for the correct text for Dorn-dergar Mastery. You acquired the sourcebook anyway to be able to use it legally in PFS - didn't you? If the d20pfsrd text is accurate, the feat allows you to wield it as a one-handed weapon. In that case, the first 3 feats wouldn't work and you wouldn't need nor benefit from Raging Hurler.

Grand Lodge

Furious Focus requires two hands.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Furious Focus requires two hands.

Only if you are using a one handed weapon. If you are wielding a two handed weapon in one hand it's still a two handed weapon and meets the requirements of the feat. I'd say it's against RAI except the FAQ seems to imply that is not the case.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Furious Focus requires two hands.

furious focus requires a one handed weapon in two hands or a two handed weapon.

The faq ruling was that a two handed weapon is a two handed weapon for purposes specifically of power attack regardless of the number of hands you wielded it with unless the ability you were using it with specifically called out otherwise (i.e. titan mauler)

since furious focus does not call out that a two handed weapon must be in two hands the logic of the power attack ruling applies.

pushing assault requires a two handed weapon, not two hands. same logic.

shield of swings however requires that you get 1.5 strength modifier in order to give up the extra .5. you do not get bonus strength modifier while wielding in one hand so I would say it doesn't apply.

Raging hurler. Two handed weapons not weapons in two hands.

Same arguments we saw from power attack we'll see here

random likely argument wrote:
it doesn't make sense, because two handed weapons are intended to be wielded in two hands and thats where the bonus damage comes from!

Likely that was the original logic but pathfinder itself ruled the other way, that unless feats or abilities specifically call out using two hands or that you're treating the weapon as a one handed weapon then you can use two handed feats regardless.

Grand Lodge

Wally the Wizard wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Furious Focus requires two hands.

Only if you are using a one handed weapon. If you are wielding a two handed weapon in one hand it's still a two handed weapon and meets the requirements of the feat. I'd say it's against RAI except the FAQ seems to imply that is not the case.

No. The feat let's you wield it as a one handed weapon, which must be wielded in two hands to benefit from Furious Focus.

There is a difference between "wield in one hand" and "wield as an One-handed weapon".

Grand Lodge

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
shield of swings however requires that you get 1.5 strength modifier in order to give up the extra .5. you do not get bonus strength modifier while wielding in one hand so I would say it doesn't apply.

Between "Ability Scores" and "Weapons", I think that's at least ambiguous, but best to be conservative for PFS.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Wally the Wizard wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Furious Focus requires two hands.

Only if you are using a one handed weapon. If you are wielding a two handed weapon in one hand it's still a two handed weapon and meets the requirements of the feat. I'd say it's against RAI except the FAQ seems to imply that is not the case.

No. The feat let's you wield it as a one handed weapon, which must be wielded in two hands to benefit from Furious Focus.

There is a difference between "wield in one hand" and "wield as an One-handed weapon".

You're right for the quarterstaff, I re-read the feat, I thought it allowed you to wield it in one hand not as a one handed weapon. That's disappointing, the quarterstaff could use some help.

Grand Lodge

Dwarves of Golarion wrote:

Dorn-dergar Master

..
Benefit: You can use a dorn-dergar as a one-handed weapon.

So this won't work with Dorn-dergar Master, edit: for the same reason. The feat allows use as a one-handed weapon and you are using it in one hand, so it's neither a two-handed weapon nor a one-handed weapon in two hands.


I believe his question can be summed up as: "Since you can power attack w/ a two handed weapon if you are capable of using it one handed (the example we are given is the lance while mounted), do these other feats also apply to a two handed weapon if we are using them one handed?"

Furious Focus: It says, "When you are wielding a two-handed weapon".

Pushing Assault: It says, "with a two-handed weapon attack".

Shield of Swings: It says, "while wielding a two-handed weapon".

Raging Hurler: It says, "you can throw a two-handed weapon".

Prior to the FAQ on Power Attack it was pretty safe to assume that all of this was based on how many hands you were using to wield the weapon, but b/c of the ruling (and the lack of examples), I could see individual GMs going either way on this. There needs to be some clarification if they wanted the lance to be the only instance, or if it was an example and what else fits in that category.

This has been brought up in other threads, it is no longer safe to assume a two-handed weapon is a weapon that requires two hands to wield (see debates on bastard swords, etc, elsewhere), or at least not safe to assume that GMs will share a generally excepted concept of how it is supposed to work.


Shouldnt there be a Str Min to wield a two handed weapon in one hand?

I mean think about I have a 22 str I can hurl an elephant and drag a boulder down a mountain with ease, but I cannot pick up a 15 lb hunk of wood or metal and swing it with ease...

Common sense and realism I know but just curious.

But wouldn't some of these feats be better served as a Combat Manuever Table... If you have this Str you can do all this, if you have this Dex you can do all this. That way the feats can be setup to do more for you.

Just a thought as I was reading thru here.

Liberty's Edge

Strannik wrote:

I believe his question can be summed up as: "Since you can power attack w/ a two handed weapon if you are capable of using it one handed (the example we are given is the lance while mounted), do these other feats also apply to a two handed weapon if we are using them one handed?"

Furious Focus: It says, "When you are wielding a two-handed weapon".

Pushing Assault: It says, "with a two-handed weapon attack".

Shield of Swings: It says, "while wielding a two-handed weapon".

Raging Hurler: It says, "you can throw a two-handed weapon".

Prior to the FAQ on Power Attack it was pretty safe to assume that all of this was based on how many hands you were using to wield the weapon, but b/c of the ruling (and the lack of examples), I could see individual GMs going either way on this. There needs to be some clarification if they wanted the lance to be the only instance, or if it was an example and what else fits in that category.

This has been brought up in other threads, it is no longer safe to assume a two-handed weapon is a weapon that requires two hands to wield (see debates on bastard swords, etc, elsewhere), or at least not safe to assume that GMs will share a generally excepted concept of how it is supposed to work.

That sums it up for me. Why would Power Attack get special treatment while other feats do not?


Furious Focus (Combat) (APG):
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
No. Parse it like this; "When you are wielding (a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon) with two hands..."

Pushing Assault* (APG):
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.
Yes. Still a two-handed weapon and still modified by Power Attack.

Shield of Swings (Combat) (APG):
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn.
Yes. Still a two-handed weapon and still a full-attack action.

Raging Hurler (Ultimate Combat):
Benefit: While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.
Non-issue. Throwing is an issue all its own and, with or without an ability that lets you wield a 2-h weapon in 1 hand, you'd still throw 2-h weapons as full-round actions normally and as standard actions with Raging Hurler.

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