Hello everyone! The characters in my RotR campaign are clearly overpowered..We are new to tabletop rpgs so at the beggining I suggested to them that they roll for stats. So..one of them has incredible stats and the other 3 above average (I mean 15 - 20 point buy)..this was no problem until now due to their lack of player experience and poor build etc etc..But as they get to know the game better (currently moving to part 3) this power shines more and more..For example they deafeted X (luck was on their side too) with noone bellow zero hp..until now I was thinking that as long as we have fun its no problem (and it wasnt..) but most of them told me they expected something more frightening in the end of part 2 (what X was supposed to be..). Now we are moving to part 3 with even more gear and a sense of "nothing can kill us" (even with already 3 deaths already due to very bad choices)..So, I start this thread to ask you guys if anyone has ideas to offer about what to do and how to handle things(especially the ranger with the incredible stats^^)..for example if anyone augmented the CR of the encounters in part 3 it would be really helpfull to share the ways he done that etc..Thank you in advance!
Eliminate any magic item treasures. Have the ogres and the like quaff potions of bull strength to boost their strength, so all the party gets is mundane junk. And reduce the treasure. If they take prisoners? The prisoners say they're sending the treasure to some stone giant who's in control.
Sure, they have high stats but they don't get the magic goodies... and no additional treasure coming in... so now they can't even build themselves new stuff.
That, and up the hit points of critters to maximum.
Thank you guys! Those are great ideas, keep them coming! Oserath, it wasn't clear but I meant more than 15 or 20 point buy..The bane weapon is a nice solution. The difficult part for me now I guess is to examine how much gold I should "steal" from them!
The problem with the Simple Advanced Template is that it increases the CR and XP of the encounter. Simply increasing hit points to max (they're a little above half max currently - for instance, a 2 hit die critter will have 9 hit points on average, or a max of 16) improves their survivability significantly without too much extra record-keeping.
Also, don't forget creatures can Aid Other for one another... to help improve the chance of hitting a high-armor class PC.
How are they overpowered? It could be a matter of tactics also on your part or theirs.
The classes are:
*Ranger (the uber stats) : built for damage, has animal companion
*Barbarian (over 20) : not built for damage, not built for damage, too much hp
*Wizard (not the real problem) : illusionist, thassilonian specialist
*Cleric (not the problem either) : good,luck domains
The players are helpfull, but they do not want to change their characters of course. The problem is that if I augment the CR of the encounters the Ranger/barbarian are going to survive and the other 2 will keep dying (at least with great priority) which will make them sad..I hope that if I give them less gold they will buy more items for the wizard and cleric and less for the ranger for example..they have team play, this is good for me I guess..Wraithstrike, to answer your question, I didnt changed significantly any of the tactics written in the AP stat blocks..maybe I could, but I dnt want to lose the feeling of each monsters "personality"..
The ranger and barbarian will probably have bad will saves, and the others won't. The barbarian can have 2000hp but it won't help if he's held or dominated. So you can target that.
Swap some of the magic item treasure from melee buffs to caster buffs, so the grunts can't really use it.
Otherwise, as they get to higher levels, the mundanes will fall behind in power compared to the casters, so it'll balance out somewhat.
An AP will never work as written for every group. Most GM's have to make some change. The easiest way is to change tactics, which can be done and still keep the feel of the AP, and if they work well as a team the NPC's will be in trouble.
The wizard and cleric should be able to survive, if they change their tactics. The wizard did take Thassilonian specialist though which did not help, BUT it is a wizard so it should still be ok.
I don't think the group is OP. You just need to adjust tactics to be more effective.
Don't worry about the Barbarian having "too many hit points" as you're going into an area with Ogre Hooks, which do x3 damage with a critical (it's been modified down from x4 in the module). Trust me, 6d8+strength and power attack will take a huge chunk of hit points out of the Barbarian. (And if you downgrade the ogre hook to Mastercraft, then you don't have to worry about PCs selling each one for 1K gold and buying new magic items for the front line.)
Take a look at the Sunder rules...
Thank you! You are all very helpfull, as always! I think I will have to change their loot, maybe downgrade it a bit and then change it to help more the wizard/cleric classes. If this goes well then I will just have a powerfull team (as a total) and I will be able to boost a little the encounters so that the difficulty level increases to normal..I got some more questions but I will post them to the hook mountain thread for GMs!
They have died 3 times. How are they overpowered?
They have died 3 times. How are they overpowered?
The 3 deaths were from the characters of the same 2 players..the ones that cause no problem to the balance of the party because of normal ability scors..The wizard is the 3rd PC of this player and the cleric the 2nd..
Stats aren't everything. You can have a character with her lowest stat a 14, and yet not be ridiculously powered (not a stat over 17). It's once you start getting 20s that things could be problematic.
For instance, I used 4d6, drop the lowest d6. These are the stats my Runelords game has at level 7:
GMPC Sylph Wiz3/Thi4: St: 14 De: 20 Co: 10 In: 20 Wi: 14 Ch: 14
1/2 Orc Barbarian 7: St: 20 De: 14 Co: 15 In: 16 Wi: 14 Ch: 13
Human Wis5/Ra3: St: 16 De: 16 Co: 15(17) In: 20 Wi: 14 Ch: 10 (Transmuter bonus)
Human Sor6: St: 10 De: 16 Co: 13 In: 14 Wi: 14 Ch: 21
Halfling Ba1/Cl6: St: 10 De: 16 Co: 12 In: 14 Wi: 18 Ch: 18
I actually gave the Halfling a few more points because she rolled poorly (initially her Strength was 7 and her Intelligence was 10) so she's be closer to the rest of the group.
I've been considering switching to a point buy next game around... but I'm not sure. After all, point-buys encourage min/max purchases, while die-rolls can be quite random (assuming you don't have a bad die - I had the girl I mentioned above reroll because I noticed a pattern - of four die-rolls, two dice rolled 2s each time. I snagged the dice, rolled them a half dozen times, and they kept rolling 2s. No obvious weighing and they were transparent dice... but apparently flawed somehow. Those two dice went out and her next set of rolls would be a 52 point build.)
After all, point-buys encourage min/max purchases,
Not true at all. My best rolled stats are still going to where I need them, and my lowest stats go to where I don't need them.
The only difference is that I can't choose the exact number, but my method will be the same no matter if I am rolling, using point buy, or a stat array.
You know how many characters I see running around with a Charisma of 8 or an Intelligence of 8 in these APs? There's inevitably a "dump stat" where points are taken away from in order to ensure more points are available elsewhere. And yes, you can still have a low stat with 4d6 (especially when two dice keep rolling 2s). But it's not quite as deliberate.
Stats aren't everything. You can have a character with her lowest stat a 14, and yet not be ridiculously powered (not a stat over 17). It's once you start getting 20s that things could be problematic.
For instance, I used 4d6, drop the lowest d6. These are the stats my Runelords game has at level 7:
** spoiler omitted **
I actually gave the Halfling a few more points because she rolled poorly (initially her Strength was 7 and her Intelligence was 10) so she's be closer to the rest of the group.I've been considering switching to a point buy next game around... but I'm not sure. After all, point-buys encourage min/max purchases, while die-rolls can be quite random (assuming you don't have a bad die - I had the girl I mentioned above reroll because I noticed a pattern - of four die-rolls, two dice rolled 2s each time. I snagged the dice, rolled them a half dozen times, and they kept rolling 2s. No obvious weighing and they were transparent dice... but apparently flawed somehow. Those two dice went out and her next set of rolls would be a 52 point build.)
Oh! I see..pretty much the same situation as mine..only that your PCs are all powerfull and thats better I guess..So, Tangent101, how do you keep the AP difficulty? I understand you max out the hp..thats fair but do you give 1 or 2 class levels more to some opponent creatures or something like that too??Do you also give your PCs fewer gold and treasure?
You know how many characters I see running around with a Charisma of 8 or an Intelligence of 8 in these APs? There's inevitably a "dump stat" where points are taken away from in order to ensure more points are available elsewhere. And yes, you can still have a low stat with 4d6 (especially when two dice keep rolling 2s). But it's not quite as deliberate.
WIth 4d6 stat rolling, rolling fair, you will see a lot of 8s too. That's whyost people I know that advocate for rolling actually mean "roll 4d6 drop lower. If you roll a 7, cry your DM for reroll. If you dont roll at least a 15, cry your DM. If you roll 2+ stats below 10, cry your DM"
Actually the average is very close to 16-14-13-12-10-9. Nearly every char should have -1 bonus in his dump stat.
Actually they're not all-powerful. I've had them concerned for their characters' lives more than once. The Barghast would have killed the Barbarian except I moved Shalelu and the GMPC into the room to assist in hand-to-hand combat (and had Mal split his attacks because it would be fun toying with them - due to Blink, it'd not been hit by the Barbarian in four rounds running... it was the Spiritual Hammer that was doing the damage. Then the GMPC lucked out with hitting successfully with Shocking Grasp and killed Mal).
Likewise, the Skaverling managed to paralyze the Barbarian and the upgrade (via making it Advanced and near-max hit points) gave it so many hit points that four other characters were only denting it. Finally when the Barbarian became unparalyzed (and the Cleric was looking quite ragged) they killed it.
Now admittedly, I'm increasing the CR of everything by +1... but that's because I started everyone at 2nd level and have been increasing the difficulty of encounters and keeping them one level above through extra foes, random encounters, side-quests, and the like. Still, I also commonly increase the hit points of the enemies.
Really, the "problem" is with a high strength character with power attack able to make mincemeat of foes. And once they start facing Giants... well, that won't be much of a problem. Even assuming Strength buffs, power attack, and using a two-handed weapon, one giant is unlikely to fall in one round... even before I give them a class level.
As for the gold? No. I've not reduced the gold from what's in the book. However, the characters are +1 level for the adventure... and all the monsters have been either given the Advanced Template or a class level. However, I've not increased the treasure (except allowing some treasure with a random encounter - looted equipment and the like). So in theory the treasure is "reduced" when you consider their level.
That, and I will use Sunder and the like. It'll give their Crafter something to do, and broken armor is less protective so... ;)
Really, the "problem" is with a high strength character with power attack able to make mincemeat of foes. And once they start facing Giants... well, that won't be much of a problem. Even assuming Strength buffs, power attack, and using a two-handed weapon, one giant is unlikely to fall in one round... even before I give them a class level.
Unless he is doing something wrong, the fighter should take down giants in one full round. That's what fighters do, kill stuff fast.
1d10+22 damage? (Assuming the Barbarian is 11th level, Advanced Rage, Power Attack, with +1 Bastard Sword) Then he'll do 71-96 points of damage in one round. A pre-augmented Stone Giant (the first you encounter) has 102 hit points. Without assistance, that Giant will take two rounds to die. And that assumes all three strikes hit. When I toss in a level of Fighter and increase his hit points to become more of a threat, then even with everyone pounding on that one Giant, he'll still last two round.
Even the earlier Advanced Hill Giant would still last two rounds, and after extra hit points and the like, two rounds easy.
Now, if he actually loots one of the Strength Belts, then in theory max damage could kill an unaugmented Giant. Maybe. And each strike in return from the giant is going to take a tenth or more of the Barbarian's hit points easy.
Also, if the Giant is going down too quickly, I'll just fudge the hit points. This just so happens to be an especially tough giant, so that his "superior" can sit back and cast spells. Just because the group has good stats doesn't mean I can't make it challenging still. It just means that I have to be creative about it.
After all, I'm willing to fudge for the characters. Why not for the foes as well?
1d10+22 damage? (Assuming the Barbarian is 11th level, Advanced Rage, Power Attack, with +1 Bastard Sword) Then he'll do 71-96 points of damage in one round. A pre-augmented Stone Giant (the first you encounter) has 102 hit points. Without assistance, that Giant will take two rounds to die. And that assumes all three strikes hit. When I toss in a level of Fighter and increase his hit points to become more of a threat, then even with everyone pounding on that one Giant, he'll still last two round.
You aren't factoring things like Haste, for example. Boots of haste are cheap enough to be bought at that level, even if you don't have a group which buffs in combat. Also, at 11th is more than probable than the char has something better than a +1 Bastard Sword. The Greater Magic Weapon alone will give them a +2. That's not including other things like potions of Enlarge Person, bards singing, heroism spell, etc.
Also, if the Giant is going down too quickly, I'll just fudge the hit points. This just so happens to be an especially tough giant, so that his "superior" can sit back and cast spells. Just because the group has good stats doesn't mean I can't make it challenging still. It just means that I have to be creative about it.After all, I'm willing to fudge for the characters. Why not for the foes as well?
Of course you can. The question is... why? Your players have made choices to be strong in battle and kill monsters fast. They do so, because they find it fun. Why would you want to ban them having fun? What's the point for your PC to take Power Attack and do 20 more damage per round, if your Giants will have 20 hp more as a result? What's the point of making a double damage crit, if you fudge the hp because the giant is going down to quickly?
To each with its own, but it's not my playstyle, I guess. I don't fudge things, and I roll without a screen. When I roll a crit, PC die, when they roll a crit, NPC die.
Just my quick two cents - you said there have been 3 player deaths? That...does not sound like they're overpowered to me. If they're dying, then they clearly aren't juiced enough to qualify for munchkin status. Not to mention, high stats is usually not enough to make for a superpowered game once you're past 4th level or so.
@gustavo: Why? Because the point of the game is to be fun and for the players to believe their characters could die. Thus as the GM I should fudge die rolls so to ensure that they don't die because of bad luck... but that the enemies should also have a fighting chance to be a threat. And given that the Final Encounter with the Kreegs and their new master is after having dealt with over a dozen ogres and some... others... player resources will not be at their best. If anything, healing will be on its last legs, offensive spells mostly used up, and the Barbarian's Rage possibly down to just a few rounds. This is the Big Finish with a fresh Big Bad when your own resources are low.
@Viscount: The deaths have (from what I could tell) been among the non-uber characters. I'm not positive as the deaths are from "poor choices" (which, let's face it, is why deaths should happen).
@gustavo: Why? Because the point of the game is to be fun and for the players to believe their characters could die.
I agree the point of the game is to be fun. The second part, not necesarelly true. Have you asked your players if they have more fun when they obliterate enemies in one round? Because it might be the case. Specially if the characters are trying to pile on damage
If you play the anivversary edition then don't sweat it, the Xanesha in that is something to wipe the floor with as opposed to the Xanesha in the original who was a TPK waiting to happen.
Maybe your players have heard rumors about how many parties had been wiped out or nearly wiped out by Xanesha and they expected something more difficult than what they saw?
Now to suggestions on how to up the difficulty, the one requiring the less work from you is to ask them to remake their characters using 15 point buy (the APs are written with that assumption) and ask them to not built too powerful characters, for example no dedicated archers, no pouncing barbarians, no dual weilding double pistol gunslingers etc.
Another thing you can do is play the enemies smarter than their tactics suggest.
Another thing you can do is to throw the advanced template here and there.
And yet another thing you can do is simply increase the number of opposition, the boss has two minions instead of one, instead of fighting 2 stone giants give them 3 etc.