Well, you can get an enhancement bonus to your armor(+1's!), you can wear a shield, you can use some sort of magic/magic items(ring of protection, amulet of natural armor), you can decide not dump dex, the barbarian can get a greater armor proficiency with a feat or dip and the barbarian can also take certain rage powers to make up for his AC(is he an urban barbarian? Barbarian's usually have medium armor prof.) All of those are simple and viable. You can hit 0 ACP with mithral Kikko or breastplate(with armor expert or comfort enchant.), the bard can actually wear a mithral breastplate and still cast.
Why exactly did you place their dex at 10? You don't need 'phenomenal dex', but having 10 is pretty low, even for a guy in full plate. What kind of build or character were you going for?
Mistmail from Ultimate Equipment is pretty cool. It won't help your AC at all but it will replace it with a 20% miss chance, which as you go up in levels will be even better.
It's PFS... so unless mistmail turns up on a chronicle sheet, it will never be available.
A shield is how my bard is getting a 14 AC instead of 13. Heavier than light armor will cost me my move rate (barbarian). And Dex is 10 because neither of the characters is a rogue, monk, or ranged attacker. Magic enhancements will provide small boosts when I can afford them, so that could work. But it will still leave me in the mid-teens for a loooong time.
So you may want to look again at item access for PFS, it's a little tricky but here's a quick summary:
1) Some items are always available, mundane +1 weapons/armor etc.
2) Some items show up on chronicle sheets.
3) Everything else that isn't specifically excluded that you have enough fame to cover, as per the chart in the organized play guide.
A shield is how my bard is getting a 14 AC instead of 13. Heavier than light armor will cost me my move rate (barbarian). And Dex is 10 because neither of the characters is a rogue, monk, or ranged attacker. Magic enhancements will provide small boosts when I can afford them, so that could work. But it will still leave me in the mid-teens for a loooong time.
You kind of screwed yourself. Monks/rogues and ranged aren't the only ones that need dex. Dex determines a lot of things, in particular AC. Its only 1000 gold to +1 a shield or armor by the way, but you might consider getting more than studded leather before you bother burning that 1000 gold.
The barbarian will still have 30 foot movement if you didn't give up fast movement, and if you get a mithril version of it for 4000 you would still have 40 foot movement with fast movement.
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For starters, if you want solid AC, you need some DEX to correspond with how light your armor is. You want 12 DEX if you're in heavy armor, 16 if you're in medium, and you really wanted an 18 if you're in light. So I'm sorry, but no matter what you do, you're going to be behind the curve on AC by an amount equal to the gap between your DEX bonus and the highest DEX bonus your armor allows.
Now, this won't be as big a deal for your barbarian. I'm not sure why you're restricting him to light armor, since (unless you took some archetype or something to change things) barbarians are proficient in medium armor. So right off the bat, you have the option of getting a breastplate and going up a few points. Furthermore, you're also proficient in shields, so if you're okay with using a one-handed weapon (though that'll be less damage than a two-hander) you could always pick up a heavy shield. You could also pick up Heavy Armor Proficiency as a feat at 5th level to help make up for that low DEX. It will cost you your Fast Movement ability, but will otherwise not have any adverse affect on a barbarian.
For the bard, things are a little dicier. You're only proficient in light armor, though you do have the option of shields, so you could pick up one of those. If you want to leave the hand open for spellcasting, use a buckler. If you want to devote it to AC, use a heavy shield. As for your armor, at the very least you should be upgrading to a chain shirt instead of studded leather. If you have the Armor Expert trait or are willing to pick up Medium Armor Proficiency as a feat, then you could save up for a mithral breastplate. It counts as medium armor for purposes of proficiency, but light for purposes of spellcasting, so you won't fail your spells in a mithral breastplate. Alternatively, you could focus on casting spells that don't have somatic components and pick up Medium and later Heavy Armor Proficiency and just use non-somatic spells alongside your class abilities. That way, the armor isn't an issue. Or, you could just be "support guy" and stay in the back away from dangerous things and not worry too much about your AC. ;)
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Now, here's a list of purchases that help your AC. The best way to improve your AC is not by investing a lot in one place, but by filling as many slots with AC-improving items as possible. Gaining +4 AC in armor enchantments will cost you 16,000gp, but gaining +4 AC by getting four different magic items at +1 apiece will only cost you 6,000gp. So here's what you want for maxed-out AC (feel free to skip things if you're not willing to invest that much, but AC will suffer; gotta decide what the right balance is for you). You should generally purchase these items in this order as well (after you've gotten your masterwork versions of your chosen armor/shield):
+1 to armor (1,000gp)
+1 to shield (1,000gp)
ring of protection +1 (2,000gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000gp)
+2 to armor (4,000gp or 3,000 to upgrade from +1)
+2 to shield (4,000gp or 3,000 to upgrade from +1)
belt of incredible dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
jingasa of the fortunate soldier (5,000gp - from Ultimate Equipment)
+3 to armor (5,000gp to upgrade from +2)
+3 to shield (5,000gp to upgrade from +2)
+2 to ring (6,000gp to upgrade from +1)
+2 to amulet (6,000gp to upgrade from +1)
+4 to armor (7,000gp to upgrade from +3)
+4 to shield (7,000gp to upgrade from +3)
....Get the idea? Just keep buying/upgrading, in as many different slots as you can stomach, always buying the cheapest item/upgrade remaining.
Good luck, and have fun!
Also potions of shield and barkskin (is there a potion of shield?)
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It's PFS... so unless mistmail turns up on a chronicle sheet, it will never be available.
Uh-oh. Have you been under the belief that you could only ever buy items that show up on chronicles? Let me see if I can clear that up for you (this is also all explained in the Guide to Organized Play, which is a free download on this site).
There are three different ways in which an item can be available for purchase. The first (and probably most important) is the "Always Available" list. The Guide to Organized Play (a free download on this site) lists some items (nearly all nonmagical gear, +1 weapons/armor, 1st-level potions/oils/scrolls, and so forth) that are always available for purchase. If you have the gold to pay for it, you can buy any legal item that fits that list.
The second way is via Chronicle sheets. You'll notice some items and their prices listed on the sheets you got at the end of your sessions. Those items are now available for you to buy whenever you have the money to do so. Unless the sheet specifies a limited availability (something like "limit 1" listed after the price), those items are permanently added to the list of things your PC can buy.
Finally, there's your Fame score. Whenever you gain Prestige Points, your Fame score increases by the same amount (i.e., if you gain 1PP, you also increase your Fame by 1). There is a chart in the Guide to Organized Play that lists some price values alongside some Fame numbers. However much Fame you have, you can look on that chart and find a corresponding gold price and can purchase any legal item of that value or less (for instance, if you have at least 5 Fame, you can purchase any item of 500gp or less).
Note that regardless of purchasing power, you can only purchase an item if it's legal for the campaign. Most items from the Core Rulebook are legal, but for other stuff you'll need to check the Additional Resources page on this site to see if it's allowed (and if so, you'll need to own the appropriate book).
Hope that helps!
How about Mage Armor or Shield (the spell)? The armour bonus from mage armor is better than that of your studded leather, allthough only by 1 point.
The bonus from shield is better than that of your physical shield.
If you have a high Use Magic Device, either of these can be read from scrolls for 25 gp pr. scroll. If your UMD is to low, potions cost 50 gp. 1 casting of these spells usually last the entire combat.
You could dip 1 level in sorcerer to gain access to both these spells. With them cast, you're at AC 18!
From the bard spell list, you have some nice defensive spells at lvl 2. Cats Grace gives +4 DEX, that's +2 AC. Blut doesn't give AC, but gives 20% concealment. Mirror Image is nice as well.
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You could pay 2000 gold pieces [you need 13+ fame] for a cracked vibrant purple prism Ioun stone from Seekers of Secrets, page 49, and pay 2 Prestige Points for a fully charged Wand of Shield.
Prior to combat see if anyone in the party can utilize the wand to charge the stone. Also consider investing skill points in Perception. Your low AC puts you at risk of dying during a surprise round, and a high Perception can lessen the chance of being surprised.
My low AC characters often buy darkwood tower shields, even though they are not proficient with shields. This has saved their lives many a time during surprise rounds.
Should they wish to fight, they generally un-don the shield [a move action], drop it [a free action], cast a spell [like Shield], and 5 foot step if a nearby space is tactically advised.
You're going to be hit anyway. Just suck it up and send your hitpoints into the stratosphere. Make sure you bring your own wand of CLW.. actually make that wandS of clw, so the healer doesn't have to burn through theirs keeping your liver attached.
If you're going to only use light armor, the best AC advice is to have more than 10 Dex. That means ignoring the people who tell you that Barbarians have to have 20 Str or Bards have to have 20 Cha at level 1 or else they suck.
And I'll ditto Jiggy on the mithral breastplate. Even if you're not proficient with it, you can take the Armor Expert trait to reduce the ACP to 0, and wear it with no penalty. That's +6 AC right there.
That means ignoring the people who tell you that Barbarians have to have 20 Str or Bards have to have 20 Cha at level 1 or else they suck.
To be fair, that is terrible advice imo. 9 level casters are the ones who consider putting a 20 in something, and even then its kind of costly and not always worth it(though witches tend to be all or nothing with save or dies). 6 level casters and martials probably need to spread things out a little more.(though there are weird cases, like the dervish dancer magus can be kinda BAD)
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As stated above, I think your best bet is to get a wand of shield for 2pp and then on your bard pump umd, on your barb try to find someone with umd in your group to use it on you. 4 ac for 2pp is about the most bang you are going to get for your buck.
It will be expensive, but your barb may want to consider a 2/2/2 belt for the extra ac down the line.
Ring of Prot and Necklace of Nat Armor are a basic necessity, 4k gp for 2 AC!
6ish more ac for only 4000 gold and 2 prestige points, I hope you will find that makes a huge difference.
As stated above, I think your best bet is to get a wand of shield for 2pp and... on your barb try to find someone with umd in your group to use it on you.
Shield is a personal-range spell, so you can't have someone else cast it on you.
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Don't focus on cranking out your AC. You are better off with a miss chance from blur or mirror image. Both are spells your bard should be able to get ahold of easily, and they stay quality for the whole of your career. Even if you get your AC up to 20, they'll still hit you pretty often. Blur and Mirror Image put together? Yeah, they aren't going to be landing many blows.
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As stated above, I think your best bet is to get a wand of shield for 2pp and... on your barb try to find someone with umd in your group to use it on you.Shield is a personal-range spell, so you can't have someone else cast it on you.
Good catch RDN, I was thinking mage armor (but he already has an armor bonus), for shield you would need to factor in the cost of a cracked vibrant purple prism, so another 2000 gold... still likely worth it.
So the above would be 6k gold and 2pp for 6 ac, there might be a cheaper way to do that, would have to look it up.
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Also potions of shield and barkskin (is there a potion of shield?)Spells with a range of Personal can't be potions, so there's no such thing as a potion of shield.
Almost always true, but there are some chronicle sheets that circumvent this, albeit unless you are an alchemist they would be expensive for single uses. This character for example has potions of both barkskin and stoneskin, but it works well with alchemical allocation.
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Unfortunately, you have chosen two of the most difficult classes to build AC on. The best advice I can offer you is too purchase as many AC boosts as you care to spend your money upon, and always buy the cheapest advancement first. In order:
+1 armor
+1 shield
ring of protection +1
amulet of natural armor +1
cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone + wand of shield
+2 armor
+2 shield
dusty rose prism ioun stone
jingasa of the fortunate soldier
ect, ect.
For your bard, as has been stated, this isn't so bad. Use spell miss chance to help mitigate your poor AC.
For the barbarian, play smart. Let someone else charge in first, attack vulnerable targets, and don't move into a melee situation that will easily cause you to get overwhelmed. These tactics will help out atleast at the lower level you are currently playing.
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A few other things to ponder:
Making a melee bard is not the best use of bardic abilities, unless you are going for Dervish Dancer, in which case he should be pumping Dex.
Any melee character needs to have some sort of at least semi-viable option for ranged combat, just in case you have no quick or easy way to get into melee. Things that can hamper a melee combatant: Difficult terrain, gaps between you and your enmemies (whether rivers or chasms), flying enemies, gettnig yourself into a diffiocult to get out of area (Create Pit is great when your allied spellcaster has it, but sucks if your opponent has it).
As mentioned, it sounds like your local GMs misunderstand the item access rules.
Always avaiable.
Chronicle Sheet
Fame unlocks.
Also, studded leather, especially if you are at Dex 10, is not really a good armor choice.
Mithril shirt, mithril breastplate, mithril kikko, etc. are likely to be better choices. Add-in, as mentioned, the various magical enhancements and items, and you can get into better AC ranges, as your Fame allows.
For the Barbarian, as a probable melee type, you will want to spend a bit on his AC, although things that let him hit better and act earlier might be a better way to go. Dead enemies don't cause hit point damage.
For the Bard, concentrate on his support abilities, most of which mean that he spends time out of melee, and may not even use a bow very often.
Some benefits of Dex you may not have thought of:
Better Reflex saves
Higher Initiatives
Higher Touch AC
Higher AC
Better Dex-based skill checks, like Acrobatics and Stealth
With the proper feats, a higher Dex also means more AoOs each round, with Combat Reflexes, which can also let you take AoOs while flat-footed...
Also, when you wind up in a party with that Trip or Disarm build, more AoOs go from a good idea to a splendid idea. Standing up from prone provokes, picking up a weapon provokes...
Base armor suggestions for your characters:
Barbarian: Mithril Agile Breastplate - It's medium armor (your proficient) but it is treated as light for fast movement.
Bard: Elven Chain - It's chainmail but is considered light in ALL aspects including proficiency.
Now just enchant them as you like. For my Barbarian I went with +1 Medium Fortification; for my bard I went with +1 Benevolent.
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Hello OP,
There are TWO and read that carefully. TWO options. Heavy AC or no AC. Every level of your enemies means a +2 to hit. So a CR 1 is +2, CR 2 is +4, a CR 3 is +6, etc...
So, you have to maintain AC upgrades of +2 per level. And that's all you'll spend your money on. A lvl. 5 fighter should have +8 AC vs. his lvl. 1 self. Anything less and you fall behind.
Or you abandon AC altogether and don't play your PC as a front line warrior.
My archer is all about initiative and killing my enemies before they can come and play slap and tickle with me. I don't care about AC because I'm damage focused and initiative focused. Long before you get in range to hurt me, I'll own you with my machine-bow. (like a machine-gun, except better) At level 4, I can normally drop 2d8+16 dmg per round, fairly consistently. At lvl. 5, I'll be hurting folks for 3d8+30. I focus on my magical bow bonuses and DEX/STR belts and don't worry about AC because my enemies will come for me. Unfortunately for them, they'll be dead long before they get to me.
So, you need to figure out what you are playing. A TANK with AC or a damage dealer who can kill them before they kill you. Don't try to 50/50 it. You won't do enough damage and you'll keep on taking hits.
Barbarians are all about DMG not about AC. With Rage, you'll be dropping your AC before you can say boo and Bards are not front line fighters, so why even waste time on AC, get a bow and pluck away at them form a distance.
So you need to learn how to play your classes and figure out what they are GOOD at and do those thing really WELL, rather than trying to make up for things they are BAD at.
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Tactics are as important as armor:
1. Memorize the "Withdraw action".
2. Barbarian: use a pole-arm (this earns, and avoids, AoOs; and let's you stand behind higher-AC allies).
3. Bard: Invisibility, Swift will be your best friend. (AC is important, but get-out-of-death escape-clauses are even more important.)
I've got two PFS characters, a bard and a barbarian, that started out with Dex 10 and ACs of 14 and 13 respectively.
Now, at level 4, they're still at AC 14 and 13 in their studded leather... while all their teammates are regularly sporting ACs in the 18-to-low 20s range, thanks to various combinations of Mage Armor, phenomenal Dex, and heavy armor.
It's a pity the barbarian's DEX is so low; barbarians are destructive single-shot archers with a strength bow...and can out-damage Rapid Shot archers when full-attacks are denied.
...the bard I would turn into a bank-rank support character focused on buffing and SoS magic. Avoid "small" tables.
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Another option to consider for the barbarian (if you didn't dump Wisdom) is a one-level dip into cleric. That grants you access to shield of faith, and if you take the Defense subdomain the shield spell as well. It also lets you use a wand of CLW to heal yourself, and stock up on low-level cleric scrolls so you can serve as a backup caster when you confront problems you can't solve with brute force. The cleric level will also help shore up a weak Will save.
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in tier 8-9 of a recent season 4 tier 5-9 scenario we faced an BBEG that had a +23 to hit with 5 attacks a round (some I think were secondary natural attacks so were a bit lower) - and that was the "scaled down" version for a 4 person table... Luckily for me my Dragon Disciple/Paladin/Bard, smiting the creature, while wearing +2 half plate, with a lot of natural armor and a few more rounds of a shield spell was able to have an effective AC of 33 against the creature - but that took multiple class features, racial features, heavy armor, a trait AC boost, and a spell!)
These are the situations that demand a dwarf fighter with a tower shield.
I upgraded my bard's armor a bit and bought him a Wand of Shield (to use with UMD), and I switched my barbarian up to medium armor. (I coulda sworn it had to stay Light to keep the move rate, but again I misread it.)
Oh wierd, I totally read the Barbarian rules like that too!
What's Invisibility, Swift?
Another handy addition to the tactics: use a reach weapon and use combat maneuvers. Requires no feats to avoid AoOs if they can't reach you.
Standing behind allies isn't great - the enemy gets a +4 AC cover bonus.
Yeah? Lol, let me in on that!
(battle bard in the Viking theme).
Late post but...
If you're interested in a Viking/Celtic battle-bard type character later on, I'd highly recommend taking a look at Evangelist Cleric. Aside from being a lot more battle-oriented, a cleric with inspiring oratory and a divine connection to a god is MUCH more classic pagan bard themed than a pathfinder "bard".
Fair enough, the skald is certainly a lot more properly thematic.
I just like the idea of an evangelist of Gorum who picks up the Rage domain ability and then yells battle-chants while raging with Gorum's free greatsword and dropping 'destructive smite' on people. I think you could even take a negative-energy channel-smite on top of a destructive smite for a real war-god inspired beating. The only downside is that without spending feats or taking a single barbarian/fighter/whatever level you wouldn't get the shield or armor that you're allowed to use with divine magic.
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Yeah? Lol, let me in on that!What's Invisibility, Swift?
Another handy addition to the tactics: use a reach weapon and use combat maneuvers. Requires no feats to avoid AoOs if they can't reach you.
Standing behind allies isn't great - the enemy gets a +4 AC cover bonus.
Invisibility, Swift was a 3.5 splat book limited version of Invisibility that only lasted for one round, IIRC, but was usable as a swift action cast.
Level was around 3 or 4, IIRC. Could be emulated, more-or-less, with a Quickened Vanish, although the Vanish would at least have that 5 round duration. And would be feasible with a rod of lesser quicken spell, although that rod isn't cheap, either.
If you do decide to take a cleric level with either PC, consider deity and domain choice carefully. The right choices can more than make up for the loss in your original class.
What's Invisibility, Swift?
Another handy addition to the tactics: use a reach weapon and use combat maneuvers. Requires no feats to avoid AoOs if they can't reach you.
Standing behind allies isn't great - the enemy gets a +4 AC cover bonus.
afaik allies dont grant enemies cover or block line of sight (but do block charge lanes)
afaik allies dont grant enemies cover or block line of sight (but do block charge lanes)What's Invisibility, Swift?
Another handy addition to the tactics: use a reach weapon and use combat maneuvers. Requires no feats to avoid AoOs if they can't reach you.
Standing behind allies isn't great - the enemy gets a +4 AC cover bonus.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
You're correct that they don't block line of sight though. The halfling standing behind the ogre is quite visible.
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afaik allies dont grant enemies cover or block line of sight (but do block charge lanes)Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
You're correct that they don't block line of sight though. The halfling standing behind the ogre is quite visible.