Only Melee PC...


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NaturalSuccess wrote:

By the way we rolled stats. I got 18, 17, 16, 15, 13, 13

Nice stats, if I do say so. As for the mount, GM pretty much said that mounted combat isn't really worth it in this campaign, because there won't be very many opportunities for a charge. Using the horse as a life insurance policy is ok I guess...but we're starting at level 2 with 1000 gold, so it would be rather expensive to keep horses around as fodder, and to feed the thing.
Also, the entire campaign is low magic; NPCs as well as PCs. Magic items will be painfully rare and expensive, which is why I was thinking a Hungry Ghost/Master of Many Styles/Quingong Monk for a bit.

With those stats I would go druid. If magic is rare in your game the more you have IN the party the better. Get barding for your animal companion at first level and he can be an excellent tank. Give yourself a good strength, dex, wisdom and con and you can get into the mix too especially once you have wildshape.

The druid will help in a number of ways over the paladin. First of all, your animal companion (with armor) will have a very high ac even without magic items. Second, both you and the cleric can heal it if its taking all the hits for the party. 3rd, when you get wild shape you can fight alongside it essentially having 2 melee characters, with possibly the cleric as backup.


Kolokotroni wrote:
NaturalSuccess wrote:

By the way we rolled stats. I got 18, 17, 16, 15, 13, 13

Nice stats, if I do say so. As for the mount, GM pretty much said that mounted combat isn't really worth it in this campaign, because there won't be very many opportunities for a charge. Using the horse as a life insurance policy is ok I guess...but we're starting at level 2 with 1000 gold, so it would be rather expensive to keep horses around as fodder, and to feed the thing.
Also, the entire campaign is low magic; NPCs as well as PCs. Magic items will be painfully rare and expensive, which is why I was thinking a Hungry Ghost/Master of Many Styles/Quingong Monk for a bit.

With those stats I would go druid. If magic is rare in your game the more you have IN the party the better. Get barding for your animal companion at first level and he can be an excellent tank. Give yourself a good strength, dex, wisdom and con and you can get into the mix too especially once you have wildshape.

The druid will help in a number of ways over the paladin. First of all, your animal companion (with armor) will have a very high ac even without magic items. Second, both you and the cleric can heal it if its taking all the hits for the party. 3rd, when you get wild shape you can fight alongside it essentially having 2 melee characters, with possibly the cleric as backup.

Crap demonstrating I am stupid:
Read his posts. He can't go druid. Convincing the DM to allow a Cleric took a lot of work. The DM isn't going to allow two full casters (at least the player is quite sure of it). Heck, the OP might even have trouble with a Magus or Inquisitor.

So it seems to be a choice of Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian. I think a Paladin is the best of the lot. The extra healing won't hurt either.

If the DM says "yes" to a Cleric and "no" to a Paladin, then he's insane.

Edit: I can't read, apparently, missed the druid bit. Sorry.

Liberty's Edge

Paladin with Weapon Divine Bond. Seriously, in a low magic world, this rocks crazily.


NaturalSuccess wrote:
In other news, my GM has allowed me to be either a Paladin or a Druid. With these two new options, which seems to be the best option?

Druid. You get your own magic and you have two melees in one. Or more if you use your spontanous summon nature's ally.


My prediction is this game isn't going to last long. Low Magic and he's letting a druid in? Crazy.

Druid is easily the best. You can be half a party easily, especially with those stats.

Str: 17
Con: 15
Dex: 16
Wis: 18
Int: 13
Cha: 13

I don't believe your race matters much, but pick something core. Otherwise some idiot will complain that it is your race that is overpowered. Dwarf is good.

The only problem is that you are the most powerful person in the party. Assuming that bothers you. Also, summons tend to make your turns last longer than others. On the other hand, they cut down on the healing people need and do nice damage.

As for feats, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summon, Natural Spell, Superior Summons. Anything else that strikes your fancy at that point.

I'd be tempted to go Paladin just so that I wouldn't have to deal with people complaining about my character. Though they probably would anyway. Doesn't matter how subpar my character is, someone in my group complains. :P Though, it is pretty justified with a druid (I didn't realize how crazy they were at the time, it was my first 3.X game).


SiuoL wrote:
I don't think a GM should throw things that need heavy melee if your group doesn't have one. At least a good GM shouldn't do that, it just kills the fun...

I disagree. I believe the GM should create encounters that make sense. So a group of orcs might have a couple of dudes with strength bows and the rest might fling a javelin while closing. But the orcs usually want to get in and chop with the axe. It is the parties responsibility to figure out how to defeat / evade / outsmart them. If the party has a weakness (no melee, no healing, no caster, etc...), then they have to take that into account in their planning.

I think it is silly to (for example) make all the gnolls only use bows because the party doesn't have any melee capability. Even orcs aren't that stupid. They will especially want to close for hand-to-hand combat in that situation.

Having said that, I also don't think a GM should go out of his way to only create encounters that prey on the party weakness.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

Warrior of Holy Light + Hospitaler Paladin( I'm just starting to get into this combo for my PFS Pally as i'm not a fan of spell casting on the Paladin). Trade away your spells, for low magic sake.
(this could definitely be fine tuned by those who know better.)
Strength:17+2 for human and boost at all levels.
Constitution:16
Dexterity:15
Intelligence:13
Wisdom:13
Charisma:18
Big ass sword(Nodachi(Keen w/Bond) or a Reach Weapon for tripping?)
Power attack, maybe the Step up line of feats.
?Cosmopolitan for Perception?
or Abadar for Eyes and Ears of the city.

Find ways to hinder the enemies movement and getting to your allies while you stay as close to team monster as possible. Bring the pain and the Pally's natural durability w/LoH will keep you upright. The Cleric can do all the buffing and main healing while you act a defense and support.

Just some of my thoughts.

The Exchange

If I may say so: be sure to iron out with your GM exactly what 'Lawful Good' and the paladin's code mean to him before you decide on a paladin.

Although I'm fond of the cavalier, one of their (non-mount) strengths is boosting fellow melee combatants; obviously that's not a benefit this party will appreciate. Thus, unless you're going for the huntmaster, I'd avoid the cavalier this time...

And in order to maximize your "blocking power", I suggest picking your favorite reach weapon. (If you create a character that disarms or trips, certain polearms will be your best friends in expanding the range and frequency of those CMBs.) Use a reach weapon in conjuction with armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet so the zone next to you isn't 'safe'. Obviously the paladin, fighter, huntmaster or even two-handed-weapon ranger get to choose any polearm; although if you decide on a druid, I believe the longspear is still an option. (In a few levels the druid will have far wider options than poking people with a pointy stick, but until the disparity between full BAB and 3/4 BAB becomes fairly gross, it's a good starting tactic.)

Shadow Lodge

Drachasor wrote:
My prediction is this game isn't going to last long. Low Magic and he's letting a druid in? Crazy.

Agreed: a druid will quickly become more powerful than the rest of a no-magic party combined.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
My prediction is this game isn't going to last long. Low Magic and he's letting a druid in? Crazy.
Agreed: a druid will quickly become more powerful than the rest of a no-magic party combined.

Just as important, the DM not realizing this is not a good sign.

A Paladin might give the longevity of the game more hope. Assuming the DM doesn't believe in no-win scenarios for the Paladin. If he thinks there is any situation where the Paladin must fall no matter what, then you just can't play one.

Best to hammer out exactly what following the Paladin code means with a DM before playing one. Cover all the bases. Killing fleeing enemies. Handling surrendering goblins that have massacred a town. Children that have been possessed by a demon (and whom you can't free). Temporarily working with someone evil when that's the only way to defeat a far, far greater evil (e.g. super greedy merchant or just an ass as an ally to help topple an evil wizard killing villages and raising an undead army). Deceiving an enemy to gain an advantage. That sort of thing.

Dark Archive

Dwarven Lore Warden Fighter Polearm Tripper is probably the best area control in the game; get some Combat Reflexes when they come in and just knock them all down; backup secondarily with Grapple for holding down single opponents that are immune to trip. After 7 you can switch to a variety of classes; but it should be very difficult to get by you and hit the range, and Dwarf + Steely Soul makes your saves very very good.


Ok...so talked with the GM, and he says he expects me as a druid to be more powerful that the others, and will compensate for that...dunno how...I'm assuming some combats that will require fighting from a distance. That's why I was considering ranger; so I would be useful in melee AND from a distance. But still not entirely sure...I was considering Paladin with a Nodachi and I would just have a bow on the side just in case the combat is from a distance with no chance for closing in.
It seems at this moment the choice is between the druid (which GM is kinda shaky on for the same reason everyone here is), the paladin or the ranger.


NaturalSuccess wrote:
... the druid (which GM is kinda shaky on for the same reason everyone here is...

In this case I would not take druid knowing it will be making things tough for him.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
NaturalSuccess wrote:
... the druid (which GM is kinda shaky on for the same reason everyone here is...
In this case I would not take druid knowing it will be making things tough for him.

That's what I was thinking. I don't want to place him in a tough situation. I may go Ranger then...just dunno what archetype I would go for. I would want to go Paladin, but the Smite Evil feature is very situational, and I know for a fact that most of this GM's enemies will be morally ambiguous neutrally aligned characters as opposed to evil characters.

Right now...either a vanilla Ranger or a Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin.

Scarab Sages

Freebooter ranger. You are not tied to a specific favored enemy and everyone in your group gets the bonuses and enhanced flanking.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

NaturalSuccess wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
NaturalSuccess wrote:
... the druid (which GM is kinda shaky on for the same reason everyone here is...
In this case I would not take druid knowing it will be making things tough for him.

That's what I was thinking. I don't want to place him in a tough situation. I may go Ranger then...just dunno what archetype I would go for. I would want to go Paladin, but the Smite Evil feature is very situational, and I know for a fact that most of this GM's enemies will be morally ambiguous neutrally aligned characters as opposed to evil characters.

Right now...either a vanilla Ranger or a Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin.

Ranger for pet and skills or... Just find other things,through an archetype, to do with those smites.

Though i must say Thallin brings up a really good choice in the Lore Warden. Also, the idea of being your own little melee team with the Huntmaster Cavalier sounds cool.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, again, I vote Freebooter Ranger.


Hmm....I honestly didn't see Thalin's post. That is interesting, but those two archetypes don't stack, sadly :/. I could use the Lore Warden Archetype, use a Fauchard as my primary weapon and have a scimitar for AoO's.
I'm not a big fan of the freebooter archetype for the ranger...it may be just because I'm anticipating being a bit far from my allies for a majority of combat, and the only buddy I would have is replaced with the archetype.
@ezrider23: What archetypes find "other things" to do with smites? lol I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean


While lore wardens loss medium and heavy armor the later lvl abilities to make a temp favored enemy is nice. But you need to pick up knowledge skills to do this, which lore warden excels at!


It is a nice ability, but it is limiting that it only works on that specific creature...so if an encounter is 15 goblins I only get the bonus against one goblin, which is irritating. Still a nice ability in reality

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

NaturalSuccess wrote:


@ezrider23: What archetypes find "other things" to do with smites? lol I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean

I'm sorry. I completely misspoke and should leave the more elaborate advice to those in the know. I just was searching through the Archetypes and they all seem give you extra smites(@7 Hospitaler) or allow you to spread the bonuses around abit(Holy Tactician)or a shield buff to allies(sacred shield). I guess your best bet with the Pally is to just use the smite when you need it and put out respectable damage through a big weapon and power attacking.


Haha ok :P I was a bit confused. I thought I was overlooking an archetype. No worries there, ezrider!
But...hmm...I'm in a bit of a spot right now. I'm completely unsure of what to with my class at this moment. May just end up saying forget it all and going barbarian after all this

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

Jack Rift wrote:
While lore wardens loss medium and heavy armor the later lvl abilities to make a temp favored enemy is nice. But you need to pick up knowledge skills to do this, which lore warden excels at!

Plus, if i'm not mistaken, he could just use a feat to get back his Medium Armor Proficiency as i don't believe any of the Lore Warden's abilities require you to wear Light Armor, but since i'm still new to this i'm unsure how big a hit to AC you'll take by going that route.

Also, i don't think Thalin was recommending you combine Polearm Master and Lore Warden but to be a Dwarf Lore Warden and wield a Polearm.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

NaturalSuccess wrote:

Haha ok :P I was a bit confused. I thought I was overlooking an archetype. No worries there, ezrider!

But...hmm...I'm in a bit of a spot right now. I'm completely unsure of what to with my class at this moment. May just end up saying forget it all and going barbarian after all this

No worries, it was my bad.

Another option for the group is to sit down and see if every one of the ranged PCs has an answer to the melee situation. I would think, and i'm sure i'm wrong, that the Cleric, Rogue or the Ranger at the very least should have some melee capability. If the latter can get finessable weapons of some sort to go with the high Dex they may be able to help out up front while the Cleric should have OK HPs and a pretty decent AC.

Trust me, i know how frustrating it can be being the only melee PC in a party. Almost every table of PFS i have sat down at over the last two months i have pretty much been the only real melee frontliner.


NaturalSuccess wrote:
Hmm....I honestly didn't see Thalin's post. That is interesting, but those two archetypes don't stack, sadly :/.

There's only one archetype in thallin's post though.


@Expostfacto: I misread and thought that he was proposing that I use Lore Warden in conjunction with Pole Arm Master
@exrider: The Ranger has decided to go gunslinger instead...so...no help there with that. The Cleric wants to be a healbot/battlefield control and will only have a dagger on him to deal with melee. The rogue...I have no idea what he's doing.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

NaturalSuccess wrote:

@Expostfacto: I misread and thought that he was proposing that I use Lore Warden in conjunction with Pole Arm Master

@exrider: The Ranger has decided to go gunslinger instead...so...no help there with that. The Cleric wants to be a healbot/battlefield control and will only have a dagger on him to deal with melee. The rogue...I have no idea what he's doing.

Then play the Melee Death Machine of your choosing and let the heal bot heal his way into greater glory. If and when you are the only PC left standing looking for new companions at the local tavern to complete your quest mayhaps the others will come better prepared.

All kidding aside, just find something you'll really enjoy playing and let the chips fall where they may. Become a natural born leader and get some melee hirelings to lead into combat to help you out or some such.


LMAO well said, my friend. I'm just gonna give up on trying to fill a position in the party and just play something I think will survive and will hopefully keep them alive as well. Haha


I think I've finally decided on playing a Paladin, but I'm unsure about the stats. Right now I'm thinking:
Str: 18+2=20
Dex: 15
Con: 17
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Cha: 16
Does that seem like a smart way to spread my stats?


ezrider23 wrote:

Warrior of Holy Light + Hospitaler Paladin( I'm just starting to get into this combo for my PFS Pally as i'm not a fan of spell casting on the Paladin). Trade away your spells, for low magic sake.

(this could definitely be fine tuned by those who know better.)
Strength:17+2 for human and boost at all levels.
Constitution:16
Dexterity:15
Intelligence:13
Wisdom:13
Charisma:18
Big ass sword(Nodachi(Keen w/Bond) or a Reach Weapon for tripping?)
Power attack, maybe the Step up line of feats.
?Cosmopolitan for Perception?
or Abadar for Eyes and Ears of the city.

.

Yep, go Pally. I agree, try the warrior of the holy light archetype, they can’t even cast spells. It works well with the Hospitaler archetype. Divine Bond sb weapon, of course.

But Longsword and Hv Shld, aka “sword 7 board’. The extra AC is good for tanking. Let the others do the damage. Take extra LoH.


NaturalSuccess wrote:

I think I've finally decided on playing a Paladin, but I'm unsure about the stats. Right now I'm thinking:

Str: 18+2=20
Dex: 15
Con: 17
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Cha: 16
Does that seem like a smart way to spread my stats?

I'd go with the 20 in CHA:

Str 16 (or 17)
Dex 13 (You'll wear plate, so any more than this is not helpful)
Con17 (or 16)
int 15
wis 13
CHA 18+2= 20.

I have noted that Low magic campaigns seem to have a lot of skill rolls, thsu the higher int. Find a trait that adds Perc as a Class skill. Max it.

Be careful. Many LM DM's are into serious railroading. Many times they have gone LM just becuase those pesky players with their spells have bypassed a whole section of their tracks.


I was gonna do Oath against Savagery for the increased range when I sacrifice a use of Smite Evil, simply because I'm anticipating a low concentration of evil enemies (GM informed me of this), and I don't want to have that ability just sitting there getting dusty, and I can't combine both, because the Oath adds spells, and Warrior of Holy Light removes the spell class feature. The Oath is actually why my Charisma was a 16 rather than a 20...because the Oath removes Divine Grace, thus removing one of the things the Paladin uses Charisma for. It also gives me an alternate use for my Smites, depreciating the value of Charisma even further.


Low or not, Smite will save your tin-plated rear end in a LM camapign.

Divine Grace is a life-saver for a Tank. And those extra heals will also save you.


No matter how high the increase against evil enemies provided by Smite is, it's useless if there are no evil enemies haha. Divine Grace is AWESOME for a Tank, and yes the heals will save me. But...i dunno. It just seems better than having a class ability that will never see use.

On the other hand, it is nifty to have in case I do run into some evil enemies. It's a rough decision...


Yes, and when you do, they will be THE BBEG, and you will be soooo happy you have it.


"BBEG" is most likely a "BBNG" in this campaign, but still brilliant to have it. Might go Hospitaler, but not entirely sure. I'm not really digging many of the archetypes and/or oaths

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

I used my first smite evil out of three scenarios in PFS against an evil undead dragon, Smote him unto ruin. (Crits from a Nodachi help also). Also if your DM never, ever throws evil at you then he is being dickish or just hasn't designed his campaign that way and you should see if you can find a houserule way to use the smite evil feature.

Just noticed your above post. Some of the archtypes give access to better spells or more smites and focus against specific enemies so most of the features really may not work for you. Even if you don't get to use all of the features all of the time and as long as you don't lose the goodies of the Pally some of the archtypes have ways to make you a tad more tankyfenderish with a small helping of leader(forgive my 4e speak as i still play that system quite a bit and just love the Paladin in 4e.)


I've been trying to think of a house rule for it, but I'm having a hard time with it. A way to take it is when someone does something against my creed then the smite works, but then I'd end up quarreling with the GM over what violates it.
Another would be a "Smite Neutral" thing, but again, he'd probably throw more evil our way then, so I wouldn't be able to smite everything. I'll give him a chat


NaturalSuccess wrote:
Ok, so the rest of my group has decided to be either ranged classes (a crossbow wielding ranger, a sniper rogue) or a spellcaster (our cleric) and that leaves us open to melee...badly. Our GM warned us that we WILL be screwed when when he throws them at us, so I want to go melee...but I have NO idea how to go about this, because I'm essentially gonna be taking the hits from most of the melee enemies. Any ideas on what kind of build I could go for?

Alright, I've browsed this thread and I want to give you some excellent options, depending on what is allowed for your campaign. If one of them appeals to you, I'll be happy to expound on the build and perhaps customize it a bit for you.

My first recommendation is a Human Barbarian, technically a Human 18th level Urban Barbarian & Invulnerable Rager/2nd level Unbreakable Fighter. He's meticulously built, incredibly versatile, very strong in melee and borderline unkillable due to high DR and high saves. He carries a both a Bardiche (Axe/Polearm) and a Greatsword on his back. Ran him in Skull & Shackles and he was the toughest player I've ever seen.

My next is a Tiefling Paladin, more specifically a Tiefling 1st level Oracle (Lore) / 19th level Paladin (Oath of Vengeance). Pretty much the essence of unkillable due to high AC, high saves and the cornerstone of Palaaind power Lay on Hands. Don't let people fool you, being able to pound evil creatures into the dirt a few times a day is nothing compared to being able to swift self-heal for large amounts while full attacking, no matter what alignment your foe is. As a Tiefling he's got some nice tricks up his sleeve as well. I'm gearing him up for a Wrath of the Righteous run.

A third option is an Aasimar Dervish of Dawn. Solid melee damage, above AC and Saves at lower levels and absolutely ridiculous at higher levels, you also get the full benefit of Bardic magic to go along with very, very potent combat ability. In fact, I've never seen a straight-up Fighter come close.

Two slightly lesser reccomendations:

A Goblin Brawler (2nd level Master of Many Styles / 18th level Brawler) capable of more than a dozen attacks per round (many more at higher levels), has some solid skills uncommon to Fighters (like Stealth and Perception) and a very high AC. Think Tasmanian Devil on crack. Drawbacks might include race and a very minor reliance on some inexpensive magic items.

A Human Weaponmaster (20th level Weapon Master), he uses a Bardiche and is an absolute melee death dealer, able to Whirlwind Attack by 4th level and capable of a Dazing Lunging Whirlwind Attack by 11th. Powerful in melee against a single foe or many, his weaknesses include low Will and Reflex saves and an inability to heal himself.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

Martial, Martial, Martial! wrote:


My next is a Tiefling Paladin, more specifically a Tiefling 1st level Lore Warden / 19th level Oath of Vengeance Paladin. Pretty much the essence of unkillable due to high AC, high saves and the cornerstone of Palaaind power Lay on Hands. Don't let people fool you, being able to pound evil creatures into the dirt a few times a day is nothing compared to being able to swift self-heal for large amounts while full attacking, no matter what alignment your foe is. As a Tiefling he's got some nice tricks up his sleeve as well. I'm gearing him up for a Wrath of the Righteous run.

I don't want to hijack this thread in any way but i would be interested in seeing this build. Is it possible to do with a Human or does your idea lose too much?


ezrider23 wrote:
Martial, Martial, Martial! wrote:


My next is a Tiefling Paladin, more specifically a Tiefling 1st level Lore Warden / 19th level Oath of Vengeance Paladin. Pretty much the essence of unkillable due to high AC, high saves and the cornerstone of Palaaind power Lay on Hands. Don't let people fool you, being able to pound evil creatures into the dirt a few times a day is nothing compared to being able to swift self-heal for large amounts while full attacking, no matter what alignment your foe is. As a Tiefling he's got some nice tricks up his sleeve as well. I'm gearing him up for a Wrath of the Righteous run.
I don't want to hijack this thread in any way but i would be interested in seeing this build. Is it possible to do with a Human or does your idea lose too much?

First off, there is a mistake there - it should be Lore Oracle, not Lore warden. I'm going to correct that post haste.

Secondly, yes you could definitely do it as a human. I chose a Tiefling in part due to the backstory I put together having great flavor and in part because the Tiefling offers many mechanical advantages to the build, particularly its favored class option which boosts Lay on Hands significantly.

The character I built is technically Oath of Vengeance and Oath Against Fiends for RP purposes, but that build is likely a bit too specialized for the OP's campaign.


Yeah, that build may be a little bit too specialized for my campaign...that and I'm not the biggest fan of the oath of vengeance for this character because of the low concentration of evil enemies. I may end up doing a vanilla Paladin


NaturalSuccess wrote:
Yeah, that build may be a little bit too specialized for my campaign...that and I'm not the biggest fan of the oath of vengeance for this character because of the low concentration of evil enemies. I may end up doing a vanilla Paladin

Again, the point isn't the effectiveness of Smiting evil enemies that makes a Paladin so powerful, it's far and away his Lay on Hands ability.

Fey Foundling adds 2 hit points/die to Lay on Hands. A Tiefling's racial option increases that by another 1 hit point/level. The first you can use with a 'vanilla' Paladin, though I personally don't care for the Channel Energy ability at all which is why I generally prefer Oath of Venegance - at least its something I might use.

Also, don't neglect your Paladin spells. There are some truly awesome options there.

Scarab Sages

I'll just throw it out there because I looked at it again in another thread, Stonelord paladin is A VERY nice tank if you are playing a dwarf. You trade your smite for an ability that doesn't use cha and you can use it on anything. You get a natural armor bonus and DR that scales in level and you keep the swift action lay on hands. You get a defensive stance that is like rage but you cant move. You also get a celestial earth elemental companion. You are VERY hard to kill and still capable of putting out heavy damage.

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