Yar!
I couldn't help but notice that the Celestial Armor entry in Ultimate Equipment no longer includes the "silver or gold" descriptor.
Does that mean that now it theoretically can be made out of any special material? Adamantine for DR 1/-, or even the much coveted mithral (changing it's max dex from +8 to +10, the ACP from -2 to -0, and the ASF from 15% to 5%)?
~P
I didn't think you could get specific armor and weapons made separately out of another material...don't know why I but I will look into it
It would make sense that you could make it out of special materials. The fact that it is not listed with them, means it would be a custom magic item subject to GM approval.
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Wouldn't it be amusing if Celestial armor was only intended to be Mithril chain that could let you fly... and someone just screwed up the math on max dex and armor check years ago?
More Importantly, could I get Celestial Plate Armor made of Mithral to have it treated as light, have a max +8 DEX, and an ACP of 0?
Plate armor you can wear under your clothes...
Shoulder pads like a business woman from the '80s.
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Here's some data to consider. I was thinking about this a while back and found a relevant discussion in the PFS upgrade thread. Mike Brock gave a straightforward ruling (Jan 2013) that "there is no upgrade path to achieve Celestial Armor", and I took that to be based on the special material it uses.
Of course, that was in a PFS context, wasn't the most robust case anyway, and might be screwed up by the deletion of that line in UE (Good catch!). I'll quote my most detailed post on the subject for your consideration. Make of it what you will.
While Celestial armor mentions the appearence of what it is made of, it in no way mentions the material.
As further example, there are examples of specific weapons and armor that ARE cited as being made of specific materials.
Ergo, Celestial armor is made of standard materials, because it doesn't say otherwise.
And actually, when you break the price down, it prices out exactly as a set of +3 armor with a 1/day level 3 spell should be at.
So, yeah, by the default rules, you can apply mithral to Celestial Mail/Plate. You could not, for contrast, to Elven Chain.
==Aelryinth
Hmm. I get the sense that we're not quite on the same page. I thought you were arguing that you should be able to make Celestial Armor out of Mithral, upgrade into it, whatever. Not that you actually can do those things. Because you can't, at least by Mike Brock's unequivocal statement upthread:
There is no upgrade path to achieve Celestial Armor.Why does it matter? Because it appears to be based on the fact that Celestial Chain is made out of a special material. See what prompted Mike's statement:
I am a little confused. I did not say anything about Celestial Armor being made out of Mithral!
I am asking if a +3 Chainmail (A normal +3 Chainamil) can be upgraded into a Celestial Armor, since a Celestial Armor is in a +3 Chainmail with additional properties.
Is there any info on such an upgrade?
Note, Mithral has NOTHING to do with this!
Sorry, I read into it 'Mithral'. You may have answered your own questions.
"A normal +3 Chainmail"
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence.Celestial Armor is not 'normal' armor. When it is made, it is "so fine and light it ...".
FWIW, I would greatly benefit if there was an upgrade path, to the tune of several thousand gold when I had to sell my 'old' magic armor to 'upgrade' to Celestial Armor.
So it looks like Celestial Armor can't be made out of Mithral. Because if that were possible, then there would be a clear upgrade path to it: buy Mithral Chainmail, upgrade to Celestial Armor. But since there is no such path, then whatever "bright silver or gold" material Celestial Armor is made out of, it must be unique in some way and required for the armor. (This is perhaps supported by the +8 Max Dex: that's a lot higher than Chainmail's base +2, but where does it come from? It must be material or enchantment, and if there's no upgrade, then I take it that it's material.) So, no Mithral Celestial Chain.
I could be wrong! Am I missing something here?
I would agree with the latter part of Joe M.'s quote: Logically, if the huge bonus to Max Dex were an enchantment, then the assumption would be that you could put it on other armor. Therefore, the Max Dex is coming from the material from which the armor is crafted.
Perhaps it's made of siccatite? :P
Celestial chain is mithral, with an extra +4 to max Dex.
I don't have Celestial plate in front of me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were mithral full plate with an extra +4 to max Dex.
You're basing this on nothing but a hunch. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that celestial armor is made of mithril.
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You're basing this on nothing but a hunch. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that celestial armor is made of mithril.Celestial chain is mithral, with an extra +4 to max Dex.
I don't have Celestial plate in front of me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were mithral full plate with an extra +4 to max Dex.
Do it yourself!
For each example (chainmail, full plate), modify the stats of that armour for mithral. Then add +4 to the max Dex bonus. The result will be exactly the same stats as those given in Celestial Chain/Plate.
As hunches go, it's pretty good.
Another example is on p20 of the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium: Millennial Chainmail.
The only thing that tells us, is that the Celestial Armor has the same stats as a mithral Chain with +4 max dex. It does not tell us that it IS a mitrhal chain with +4 max dex.
Same boni != same item.
(This is not to say that I believe it could also be made from mithral in addition to the normal celestial boni. I'm pretty sure that is at least not intended (even though it seems there is might be no direct rule against it). Why? Because it would make Heavy Armor Proficency (in addition to medium) a joke at higher level and further send the AC of DEX based characters through the roof.)
Yar!
Actually, pre-UE, Celestial Armor was very specifically NOT mithral. It was made from Silver or Gold. Even the CRB entry on the PRD still calls it out as being made from Silver or Gold.
A few years ago in a similar forum topic, this was one of the main reasons, including stated by James Jacobs (I know, not rules guy, but creative director nonetheless) as to why it cannot be mithral: because it had to be Silver or Gold.
But now in UE, it no longer has that specification of being made from Gold or Silver. In UE it is simply magical chainmail. Hence I though it may be worth it to bring this topic up again.
If Celestial Armor is no longer required to be Silver or Gold, can it be made from other materials.
I understand the position of "Named items cannot be changed or upgraded at all". But that is neither supported or denied in the rules, as far as I can tell (I may have forgotten and/or missed something).
Still, there it is. ^_^
~P
Wouldn't it have to be called "golden..." for that, not "gold..."?
I'm pretty sure it was the material.
Yar!
Not to speak for others, but even the Creative Director of paizo thinks it was the material.
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
However, I respect your opinion to the contrary, even though I do not agree with it or your proof of it so far.
~P
While it's possible that the removal of "silver or gold" is stealth-errata, I think it's equally possible that it was removed due to space-constraints. Adding that would mean the Celestial Armor write-up would take up an extra line, and since the magical armor/shields section actually ends on the very bottom of its last page, another line anywhere in that section would be troublesome :)
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Even if you don't allow specific armours to be further enchanted, they are certainly within the capabilities of PCs to enchant.
That being the case, a PC spellcaster could obtain a suit of MW chainmail or full plate, do the required casting and,voila, Celestial chain or plate!
Although the enchantment itself cannot be altered, the armour which is enchanted has no such restriction. It could be adamantine or...mithral!
That would be a further +2 to max Dex (on top of the armour's +6 for Celestial chain), a further -3 to ACP (on top of the -3 from Celestial), a further reduction in SF of 10% (on top of the -10%), and half the weight again (on top of the Celestial version already being half the weight of chainmail.
Nah! It's already either mithral with an extra +4 to max Dex, or a carefully undescribed wonder metal, resembling mithral precisely in reduction of ACP, Spell Failure and halving the weight, while adding +6 to max Dex instead of +2. Perhaps 'Celestial' gold and silver.
We could use that to fashion our own armour! I wonder how much it costs...
[Alchemical] Silver and gold, as materials, already have their own write-ups. I respect JJ's opinion, but go read the description for items made out of gold - they weight twice as much, not half as much.
It's possible that the last line on the gold write-up (about magically-treated gold being as hard as steel) should indicate that a weight decrease as well, but it doesn't say that.
And silver really has no special qualities besides bypassing DR\silver.
If they really are intended to be made out of gold or silver, than I agree with Malachi - they would have to be some mystical 'celestial gold\silver' variant metal, or some enhancement process, that is as-yet undescribed.
Mithral isn't the only material that is half weight.
I must have missed James Jacobs declaration that Celestial Armor wasn't mithral, because it would have elicited a definite "lol, wut?" It makes sense in almost every fashion imaginable for that to be the metal used in this case. First off, you have a medium suit of armor that's being treated as light, just like mithral would make it. It's armor class penalty dropped from -5 to -2, just like mithral would make it. The arcane spell failure chance is only 5% less than what mithral chain mail would give you and the max DEX bonus is, well, it's 4 points higher than normal but that's easily explained with magic. Hell, the COST of it even comes out right if you assume this is mithral:
+3 enhancement + mithral chain + fly 1/day + DEX / % fail (X) = 22,400 gp
9000 gp + 4150 gp + 9000 gp (6000 * 1.5 for slotless) + X = 22,400 gp
22150 gp + X = 22,400 gp
Solve for X and each 5% drop in arcane spell failure chance and +1 to the max DEX bonus is worth 50 gp.
But, whatever, James Jacobs word on this sort of thing is pretty trustworthy too.
You know, regardless of what Celestial Armor is made out of, there's no reason to think that the magical qualities that set the ACP, Max Dex, and weight would stack with being made out of mithral.
If you want to make mithral celestial armor it is a custom item subject to GM approval. That's it.
RAW: Celestial armor exists. Mithral armor exists. Mithral Celestial does not, therefore, custom item, ask your GM. Chances are, you'll get a No.
You know, regardless of what Celestial Armor is made out of, there's no reason to think that the magical qualities that set the ACP, Max Dex, and weight would stack with being made out of mithral.
Why wouldn't they? Mithral doesn't provide any sort of typed bonus in these areas, it just flat out lowers those figures. When a bonus or penalty or ANY modification isn't typed, it stacks.
Obviously it cannot be done RAW, but if I have mid to high level characters who actually manage to get an effective +10 to their DEX, I personally wouldn't have a problem letting them make this armor.
The best armor in the game would be Mithral Celestial Plate Armor with a +12 AC, +8 max DEX, and it lets you fly, is treated as light, but requires medium armor proficiency.
Obviously it cannot be done RAW, but if I have mid to high level characters who actually manage to get an effective +10 to their DEX, I personally wouldn't have a problem letting them make this armor.
The best armor in the game would be Mithral Celestial Plate Armor with a +12 AC, +8 max DEX, and it lets you fly, is treated as light, but requires medium armor proficiency.
Well, as long as we're going with GM Fiat, the best armor in the game is super awesomesauceness with +5000 ac +1290321 max dex and you can fly, permanent greater invis, is treated as not armor (for monks, we love monks) and you can conquer the world by saying "Cheese."
I think he meant that the best armor in the game that can be theorized by combining existing items and templates. Otherwise, yeah, I've gotta give it to the awesomesauceness plate.
What happens if you make the Super Awesomesauceness Plate out of ultra-maxim-mithral?
What happens if you make the Super Awesomesauceness Plate out of ultra-maxim-mithral?
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!
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I must have missed James Jacobs declaration that Celestial Armor wasn't mithral, because it would have elicited a definite "lol, wut?" It makes sense in almost every fashion imaginable for that to be the metal used in this case. First off, you have a medium suit of armor that's being treated as light, just like mithral would make it. It's armor class penalty dropped from -5 to -2, just like mithral would make it. The arcane spell failure chance is only 5% less than what mithral chain mail would give you and the max DEX bonus is, well, it's 4 points higher than normal but that's easily explained with magic. Hell, the COST of it even comes out right if you assume this is mithral:
+3 enhancement + mithral chain + fly 1/day + DEX / % fail (X) = 22,400 gp
9000 gp + 4150 gp + 9000 gp (6000 * 1.5 for slotless) + X = 22,400 gp
22150 gp + X = 22,400 gpSolve for X and each 5% drop in arcane spell failure chance and +1 to the max DEX bonus is worth 50 gp.
But, whatever, James Jacobs word on this sort of thing is pretty trustworthy too.
The fly 1/day costs 8100 not 9000; it's command word activated, so costs SL x CL x 1800.