Goblin Squad Member
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There have been a number of conversations along these lines, and I've been a very vocal proponent of Tab Targeting in all of them. Likewise, I realize that Tab Targeting is the current front-runner:
e are looking at... tab targeting being the primary targeting method...
However, I want to make a case for limiting the Tab Targeting to the targets that are actually within a relatively small window in the center of the viewport. A "target box" in the middle of the viewport that is roughly one third of the height and one fourth of the width of the viewport seems reasonable to me.
It is always rather jarring to me in LOTRO when I tab to get the target standing right in front of me, then shoot my bow only to see my arrow fly off to my side to hit something that's not even on-screen. At the same time, if there are multiple enemies lined up in front of me, I want to be able to tab through them to get the target I want - if I can't hit them for LOS reasons, that's fine, but if I can see it well enough to want to target it, I should be able to acquire it as a target and at least try to hit it.
For those reasons, I think that limiting the targets that can be acquired by tab to those that are within the target box, and allowing the player to tab through all the visible mobs inside that target box is a good solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm with Being on the cone idea. That way you would only toggle through available targets in front of you...which is where you be looking if you were actually trying to target someone IRL. Maybe have an imaginary crosshair or some other targetting thingy so that when you turn quickly the tab would just target the target nearest the crosshairs and work it's way out to the edge of the cone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... a cone is round...
That's why I linked to the Wikipedia article on Cones.
In common usage in elementary geometry, cones are assumed to be right circular, where right means that the axis passes through the centre of the base (suitably defined) at right angles to its plane, and circular means that the base is a circle. Contrasted with right cones are oblique cones, in which the axis does not pass perpendicularly through the centre of the base.[1] In general, however, the base may be any shape, and the apex may lie anywhere (though it is often assumed that the base is bounded and therefore has finite area, and that the apex lies outside the plane of the base). For example, a pyramid is technically a cone with a polygonal base.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nie-uh-mawn...
*beams with pride and gratitude*
... teach Korvak how to fix funny number puzzle's...he good to Korvak. Korvak like. Want bunny pelt?
*checks to see that the pelt has been expertly cleaned and cured*
That's a nice pelt! I can line my hood with that to ward me from the chills when Blaeringr walks in the room...
Hey, anyone know where Fluffums the Rabid Dire Weasel's gone? I was supposed to take him to the vet today to deal with his Stygian Flea problem. All I found was a skinned carcass and someone's lost copy of "Geometry for Orcs".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyway I'm not too pumped about tab targeting. I've talked to people that won't even try tab targeted games anymore because it's such an overused system. I can understand the sentiment though I'll try anything other than obvious themeparks.
If they do it though, for sure you shouldn't be able to tab target anything that isn't in a cone infront of you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if the target changes color to indicate if within range eg of dagger < sword < Axe < Spear in melee and sling, javelin, short bow, long bow in ranged?? That would make the targeting more interesting with respect to position and distance to target?
Anyway I'm not too pumped about tab targeting. I've talked to people that won't even try tab targeted games anymore because it's such an overused system. I can understand the sentiment though I'll try anything other than obvious themeparks.
If they do it though, for sure you shouldn't be able to tab target anything that isn't in a cone infront of you.
I think it's useful for the sort of 3rd person style of combat. But I think mmorpgs where they attempt to be more actiony and tab-target I'm not so sure about those actually. I'd prefer to go slower with tab-target and concentrate on the battle of the wits; which can include rolling leaping, but a slower pace to have more timing space and decision time and placement of your avatar - not all rushed button-mashing blur on screen. I think if you are letting the game do the dice-rolling then make the player call the shots in a more tactical way not a physical way, though again position, timing can all be tactical decisions without too physical/actiony input stress on the keyboard and mouse.
Again the cone idea sounds good to as above with distance information. But I think give players enough time to coordinate the information feeding their decisions. Especially if there are tons and tons of skills to learn and identify.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if the target changes color to indicate if within range eg of dagger < sword < Axe < Spear in melee and sling, javelin, short bow, long bow in ranged??
Slightly off-topic, but it would be really awesome if there were in-world indications of damage and state, so that we could actually play with the UI turned off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the whole tab target cycling within a bounded and well defined area.
I'd also like to see something along the lines of a pane listing marked targets. As long as said targets remain reasonably within the capability for a character to keep an eye on, they ought to be able to ctrl-tab, for example, to cycle through just that list of targets. Naturally someone successfully hiding from that character would have their name removed from that list. No LoS for a particular duration would be another likely candidate. Perhaps the name would just grey out and be skipped until it either dropped completely or that target came back into view.
Slightly off-topic, but it would be really awesome if there were in-world indications of damage and state, so that we could actually play with the UI turned off.
I'd like to point out the mutually exclusive concepts of having UI elements that are for when the UI is turned off. ;)
That said, I also like this idea. A minimalistic, non-word/number based set of UI elements would be very welcome. Particularly if you could blend between using some precise elements and other minimalistic elements.
Very good call on that one.
Also, Nihimon, for the record, I'm not against the UI helping a player identify things. I'm against the game doing your work for you. If one person ganks another from out of obvious sight, it's just infuriating to have the intended victim automatically have their attacker targeted and ready to retaliate simply by spinning until a target is identified as in the right field of view and launching ranged attacks at something they should merely be aware that it exists, is in the area and is hostile.
If nothing else, it breaks immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Technically speaking, what I described is a Cone.
I will have to disagree.
If you want a hitbox and not a hitcircle, the shape you will get is a square based pyramid, or possibly a square based frustum (pyramid with top cut off) depending on whether the point of confluence should be the center of the character or a little bit behind that.
It could also be argued that the surface of the shape furthest from the character should be curved the same as a sphere with the character at the origin. I don't know what the resulting shape would be called in that case.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Technically speaking, what I described is a Cone.I will have to disagree.
If you want a hitbox and not a hitcircle, the shape you will get is a square based pyramid, or possibly a square based frustum (pyramid with top cut off) depending on whether the point of confluence should be the center of the character or a little bit behind that.
It could also be argued that the surface of the shape furthest from the character should be curved the same as a sphere with the character at the origin. I don't know what the resulting shape would be called in that case.
In general, however, the base may be any shape, and the apex may lie anywhere (though it is often assumed that the base is bounded and therefore has finite area, and that the apex lies outside the plane of the base). For example, a pyramid is technically a cone with a polygonal base.
I think "spherical sector" is another name for a cone with a base that is falls on the surface of a sphere centered on the apex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if there could be tab targeting with certain preset (filters) so that you could set the tabs to certain conditions. Example: Set Tab Targets to Closest to Farthest; Set Tab to Most Dangerous Foe, etc...
In games like EvE I always target the weakest and closest target first (drones, frigates), then work my way up the ladder (cruisers, battle cruisers, battleships). This way you kill off the easiest and closest targets off quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also like to see something along the lines of a pane listing marked targets.
First, glad to see you posting again. It's been a while :)
As for the list of marked targets, I really like that idea. Vanguard did a lot of things wrong, but they did a few things wonderfully well, and the list of all aggro targets was an extremely cool and useful innovation.
Slightly off-topic, but it would be really awesome if there were in-world indications of damage and state, so that we could actually play with the UI turned off.I'd like to point out the mutually exclusive concepts of having UI elements that are for when the UI is turned off. ;)
Well, I was proposing "in-world indications", rather than UI elements. There's a fairly significant distinction, I think.
Also, Nihimon, for the record, I'm not against the UI helping a player identify things. I'm against the game doing your work for you.
I'm not sure what you're referencing.
As for a Rogue jumping out of the shadows to attack a Farmer, I think it makes perfect sense for the Farmer to have the Rogue targeted by default. If the Rogue has abilities that allow him to evade the Farmer after that initial attack, then sure, go ahead and make the Farmer drop the target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
Slightly off-topic, but it would be really awesome if there were in-world indications of damage and state, so that we could actually play with the UI turned off.I'd like to point out the mutually exclusive concepts of having UI elements that are for when the UI is turned off. ;)
...
Yet bleeding, staggered, crippled, disoriented, blinded, confused... all these could be animations rather than UI.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good to be back. =)
That was mostly harassment for the phrasing. ;) Even with colors though, turning someone green from poison or blue from frost effects is natural enough.
Definitely like the idea where descriptive animations are concerned, cringe a little at how much more dev work is involved though lol.
Still, if things like different dances are going to happen they'll need someone full time on just creating animations anyhow.
The last bit was referencing something from months ago, I was catching up on reading a few things and noticed a similar conversation. Right around the time life got hectic ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Re: rogue jumping out to ambush farmer though.. what about a bolt from nearby brush, or a haystack. At best they, or someone else standing there, should have a direction. Why would they be able to immediately loose bolts of their own, uncannily towards the exact spot that rogue is standing, despite being behind cover and such. (Edit: After some thought, if you're watching in the right direction when you get hit, as in facing your attacker, I could see auto targeting being feasible.)
Don't get me wrong, if they can see him they should be able to target him and retaliate instantly... but automatically locating the attacker? This is also a slippery slope for tab targeting, should it only work on those outside of full concealment?
Being's comment about bloody and confused raised a few questions though. What happens when you get hit for a tenth, or half, or 90% of your life in one hit? Are there additional effects to such a brutal attack? Do you run slower for being down to 10% of your life?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Re: rogue jumping out to ambush farmer though.. what about a bolt from nearby brush, or a haystack.
If the Rogue has abilities that allow him to evade the Farmer after that initial attack, then sure, go ahead and make the Farmer drop the target.
I would think a Sneak Attack followed by an immediate Hide would count as "abilities that allow him to evade the Farmer after that initial attack".
I'm all for adding this level of realism to the game... in principle. I'm not sure I really understand the actual costs to develop, and I'm not sure the benefits would justify those costs if they were at all significant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sure it'll be progressively tweaked along with everything else. The dev costs for targeting would be partially offset by the fact that they'll be doing a lot of this stuff anyhow. Just the specifics will add a bit here and there. Of course if they strike gold on the first attempt that's always best. ;)
I'm curious if there's a middle ground we can find that rewards a player for being skillful at remaining undetected by the opposing player, and leave the mechanics up to discerning what's detected by the character.
I.e. If Darcnes the player is able to maneuver Darcnes the character in such a way that Nihimon the player remains unaware of Darcnes the character, Nihimon the character doesn't get to automatically target and see the name of Darcnes the character. Obviously if Nihimon is mortally wounded and dies from this it's just semantics as the name would be available for bounty purposes (as I last understood it anyhow), but otherwise Nihimon remains unaware of who or what the attacker is, merely that his life has been threatened.
That said, the stealth sound other players heard in WoW when their character detected another sneaking nearby was an excellent example of character based feedback. Nihimon the player could easily be notified by such a sound that something was afoot prior to being ambushed and actively search the premise.
The other concern I had is simply whether tab cycling should pick up characters that aren't immediately apparent. Like the five bandits standing behind trees. Being suddenly aware of these individuals that you have no business knowing about, but happened to be repeatedly hitting tab just in case really kills the immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would tab targeting with a "line of sight" qualifier work?
The problem with a "line of sight" requirement only is that you can have line of sight to things that are way off to the side.
My goal was to create a system where you would target whatever was most nearly directly in front of you first, and tab through things that were basically "behind" that thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being's comment about bloody and confused raised a few questions though. What happens when you get hit for a tenth, or half, or 90% of your life in one hit? Are there additional effects to such a brutal attack? Do you run slower for being down to 10% of your life?
In GURPS, you take a penalty to your next attack if you are hit. Linked with the amount of damage you take, you also have the rule whereby losing half your HP in one go stuns you. IT is possible to literally beat an opponent into submission by continuously whacking him so hard that he can't effectively retaliate.
I like the realism of that system, but it may be a step too far for PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, to me that's the key - having rules about LOS rather than rules about targeting mechanics. I've been unable to find it, but I remember Ryan saying something along the lines of how he didn't want the game to be about wrestling with the UI.
I remember that also. I couldn't find it either.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In the Jagged Alliance remake, getting hit interrupts whatever it was you were doing, so you have to start it again. Even when what you were doing was aiming and firing at the guy who hit you.
That has the emergent effect that whoever is fastest and can hit reliably at the range of the firefight wins with little or no injury; the entire game boils down to controlling the range of the engagement and your equipment choice so that you always win. (Well, until the enemy has HMGs that outrange the sniper rifles and can group a short burst inside a dime at that range; then it becomes a combination of that stealth grenadiers, and quickload. I'm not bitter).
Upshot: It's entirely reasonable for the outcome of the battle to be obvious as soon as the combatants are known; The fighter will trap the rogue's dagger with his ribs and then rip the rogue's head off, then the wizard zots the fighter from the next ridge over before the other rogue steps out from the shadows and shortens him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A little necro...
Helping targeting could involve a window showing a list of all targetable characters, which could be used to target characters based on character name.
Yeah, one of the really great things Vanguard did was the Encounter List, which showed a health bar for each Mob in the Encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Though I like the idea of the selective tab targetting, it is an incentive for jumping around each other in circles, which to me is a negative. Perhaps priority is given to targets in the specific region mentioned first, but after scrolling through those targets you can target enemies not on-screen?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps priority is given to targets in the specific region mentioned first, but after scrolling through those targets you can target enemies not on-screen?
I'd be fine with that. The problem I've experienced in other games (most notably LOTRO) was that I would tab to select a target right in front of me, then shoot my bow only to see it veer off to the left because my tab had picked up something either off-screen or just barely on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be fine with the encounter list showing all characters at a certain radius/box all around the character even behind minus stealthed etc and the select next/nearest enemy function could function in a suitable shaped part of that area corresponding the facing of the character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dig the way TESO handles targetting. It's point-and-fire with a little wiggle room. You don't need to tab target, you just need to point your camera in the right direction.
Imagine a targetting box with a dot in the middle. We'll call that your reticle. The reticle is locked in the middle of your camera. If there is a valid target anywhere in your reticle box, your attack will be directed at that target; it doesn't need to be exact. If there are multiple targets within your reticle box, the target under your reticle dot determines which will be the target of your attack.
Sometimes, other targets get in the way of your attack. If you keep attacking your original target while other targets have interposed themselves between you and it, your attacks will instead be hitting the new target. It encourages a more fluid combat system as you need to move to get a better angle on your original target if you want to continue your attack.