Optimization advice for a 10 point buy / low wealth game p6 campaign?


Advice

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Sovereign Court

Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Build: Paladin 6 (CRB)

Nice build for a 10 pt buy.

What about replacing that last level of Paladin with Fighter in order to get Spirited Charge? I don't think you'd get any frowns if you multiclass into 1 class for a level.

(Or if you're willing to munchkin just a little bit, Dragoon Fighter to get Mounted Combat and Skill Focus:Ride, and then just take Spirited Charge as a regular feat, but maybe that'll be a little too cheeky)


blackbloodtroll wrote:
soupturtle wrote:
I think the point of the adamantine durable arrow is that you use it as an improvised weapon. If I were the GM though, I wouldn't allow anyone to use an adamantine arrow as if it was an adamantine dagger/shortsword - surely the only part of an arrow that's special material is the point.

It notes in the Arrow description that it can be used as an improvised weapon.

Also, Adamantine spears count as Adamantine, even though it is just the tip.

Eh, I'd say the entire spear is Adamantine (or Mithril). Especially in the case of Mithril when you pay by the pound. By RAW a mithril spear is something like 4.8k gold. I don't know why I need to pay that much for a spear if it's not entirely made of the damn metal - what am I doing with the rest of the metal? Eating it?.

Shadow Lodge

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Entilzha wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

.

Another "make the GM happy" build which is deceptively powerful (relatively speaking, of course):

STR+15 INT:12
DEX:14 WIS:07
CON:12 CHA:12 ...STR becomes 16 at 4th

Deity: Abadar

Build: Paladin 6 (CRB)

Traits: Dangerously Curious, Eyes and Ears of the City

Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw

Equipment: four-mirror armor, lance, bardiche, longsword, quickdraw light shield, military saddle, light crossbow (you'll buy a MW STR composite bow later)

Divine bond: mount (heavy horse -- *no* dinosaurs, etc)

= = = =

What "sells" it to your grumpy GM who's sick of Monty Haul Munchkinland:

* No 18 in any stat
* No multiclassing
* You do have a sidekick, but it's just a horse
* You're an ordinary bloke human
* The PC's alignment will reign in your bad impulses as a player

-- So, you earn far fewer frowns out of the gate from your GM than other players submitting Tinkertoy/Frankenstein builds with two 7s and an 18 in them. This lets him compose his adventure with one less irritation.

What makes it strong:

* 24 skill points to spread around; 30 if you want 'em
* Use Magic Device and Perception are on the class list
* +8 stat bonuses in a 10pt build; all stats "even" at cap
* Reach weapons and Combat Reflexes generate extra attacks
* Ride by Attack denies opponents full-attacks, avoiding damage
* Excellent AC and self-repair skills
* The mount may be replaced at some point
* +1 to attack ground targets while mounted means attack bonus is equivalent to unmounted STR 18 PC.
* Class-list Diplomacy and Sense Motive let you gab indoors when the mount is curbed
* You have an iterative attack
* Quick Draw means the right tool is in your hands at all times

Nice build for a 10 pt buy.

What about replacing that last level of Paladin with Fighter in order to get Spirited Charge? I don't think you'd get any frowns if you multiclass into 1 class for a level.

Forfeiting pally6 weakens the mount, drops our ref and will saves, costs us a Mercy (Diseased is a solid choice) as well as caster-level, and drops Lay on Hands from 3d6/4-a-day to 2d6/three-a-day, as well as affecting Channel similarly. ....so, no; Pally6 is pretty damned important: there isn't an "our fifth choice" feat in the game worth giving up all that.

Multiclassing also makes our "tired of the BS" GM frown (that being why I kept it straight class CRB). Lastly, if the GM ever does grant an extra level (which I suspect he might), pally7 grants a second level spell (w/circlet) and a third +7 damage Smite per day (these being a lot more useful than fighter2 for another feat as a leveling pally5/figh2).

The reason I put Quick Draw in there instead of Spirited Charge is because it is actually situationally more useful. Example: you're afoot fighting w/bardiche; you drop foe with first attack, Quick Draw your bow and make your iterative against another opponent. Same thing while mounted has you free-action stowing quickdraw shield and then snapping off a shot. So, it grants extra attacks while simultaneously appearing "non-munchkin" (unlike Spirited Charge) to your GM.

Damage is already adequate in this low-capped campaign -- especially versus a Smite-buddy, upon whom a mounted lance charge yields 2d8+6+12 with an ordinary sharp stick (then you Ride-by out of his 5'). So, we take only two Mounted feats, saving the other two for "flexible response". ...and because I love Quick Draw, a very under-rated feat which we'll be using constantly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Hawktitan wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
soupturtle wrote:
I think the point of the adamantine durable arrow is that you use it as an improvised weapon. If I were the GM though, I wouldn't allow anyone to use an adamantine arrow as if it was an adamantine dagger/shortsword - surely the only part of an arrow that's special material is the point.

It notes in the Arrow description that it can be used as an improvised weapon.

Also, Adamantine spears count as Adamantine, even though it is just the tip.

Eh, I'd say the entire spear is Adamantine (or Mithril). Especially in the case of Mithril when you pay by the pound. By RAW a mithril spear is something like 4.8k gold. I don't know why I need to pay that much for a spear if it's not entirely made of the damn metal - what am I doing with the rest of the metal? Eating it?.

You currently cannot make an all Adamantine Spear, unless you make it an Undine Weaponshaft weapon.

So, without houserules, an Adamantine Spear, only has an Adamantine tip.

Rest is still wood.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Hawktitan wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
soupturtle wrote:
I think the point of the adamantine durable arrow is that you use it as an improvised weapon. If I were the GM though, I wouldn't allow anyone to use an adamantine arrow as if it was an adamantine dagger/shortsword - surely the only part of an arrow that's special material is the point.

It notes in the Arrow description that it can be used as an improvised weapon.

Also, Adamantine spears count as Adamantine, even though it is just the tip.

Eh, I'd say the entire spear is Adamantine (or Mithril). Especially in the case of Mithril when you pay by the pound. By RAW a mithril spear is something like 4.8k gold. I don't know why I need to pay that much for a spear if it's not entirely made of the damn metal - what am I doing with the rest of the metal? Eating it?.

You currently cannot make an all Adamantine Spear, unless you make it an Undine Weaponshaft weapon.

So, without houserules, an Adamantine Spear, only has an Adamantine tip.

Rest is still wood.

And what would you say about a pure mithril spear. Surely you don't pay for 9 pounds worth of mithril for a spear tip.

Shadow Lodge

Hawktitan wrote:
And what would you say about a pure mithril spear. Surely you don't pay for 9 pounds worth of mithril for a spear tip.

Pole-arms have wooden hafts; that's reality as well as the game balance for them being situationally better weapons. I'd house-rule that replacing the haft with metal makes it a cumbersome exotic weapon.

(But this is a topic for another thread.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The reason I make the point, is because the argument against an Adamantine Arrow, counting as Adamantine, when used in melee, makes no sense.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

The reason I make the point, is because the argument against an Adamantine Arrow, counting as Adamantine, when used in melee, makes no sense.

I agree. An adamantine arrow is a perfectly good improvised adamantine piercing weapon.

What it isn't, is a replacement for the multifunctional tool that is an adamantine dagger, as I would say you cannot apply much lateral force with it before the arrow shaft breaks.

Sovereign Court

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Forfeiting pally6 weakens the mount, drops our ref and will saves, costs us a Mercy (Diseased is a solid choice) as well as caster-level, and drops Lay on Hands from 3d6/4-a-day to 2d6/three-a-day, as well as affecting Channel similarly. ....so, no; Pally6 is pretty damned important: there isn't an "our fifth choice" feat in the game worth giving up all that.

Multiclassing also makes our "tired of the BS" GM frown (that being why I kept it straight class CRB). Lastly, if the GM ever does grant an extra level (which I suspect he might), pally7 grants a second level spell (w/circlet) and a third +7 damage Smite per day (these being a lot more useful than fighter2 for another feat as a leveling pally5/figh2).

The reason I put Quick Draw in there instead of Spirited Charge is because it is actually situationally more useful. Example: you're afoot fighting w/bardiche; you drop foe with first attack, Quick Draw your bow and make your iterative against another opponent. Same thing while mounted has you free-action stowing quickdraw shield and then snapping off a shot. So, it grants extra attacks while simultaneously appearing "non-munchkin" (unlike Spirited Charge) to your GM.

Damage is already adequate in this low-capped campaign -- especially versus a Smite-buddy, upon whom a mounted lance charge yields 2d8+6+12 with an ordinary sharp stick (then you Ride-by out of his 5'). So, we take only two Mounted feats, saving the other two for "flexible response". ...and because I love Quick Draw, a very under-rated feat which we'll be using constantly.

I've never been a big fan of the Paladin's Mercies, but other than that, you do make some excellent points which I didn't really consider. Touché.

Regarding Quick Draw, it is indeed a very underused and undervalued feat. I know I wish I could take it more often in my builds, but it rarely makes the cut.


The best choice would be Summoner or Sorcerer, but the DM's vague threat about non-divine spellcasting could be trouble.

So yeah. CoDzilla it is. Do cleric or druid, get a good pet, use summons.
You said crafting is fine. Consider playing a Forgehammer Cleric. It's the master of crafting arms and armor and a pretty good buffer, too. Several of the runes are early entry compared to when you'd normally be able to get those effects.

Of course, Oracle also works and level 6 is just enough to get Paragon Surge to cast any level 1-3 cleric/oracle spell in the game. Just pick a mystery with a nice level 3 spell to spam when you don't need to call up random utility spells. Hmm, a P6 game sounds perfect for a Heavens Oracle that's optimized around color spray.

Your DM's rules sound abhorrent, but if you're willing to play a spellcaster, you could shine quite brightly with them. Just pity the poor saps who build monk or figher and such.


Damocles Guile wrote:
I still say Witch with a Fighter kicker. The issue with low level builds is resources and Hexes never run out - moreover, they can be used while in full plate if you wish and the character can easily pass for a Fighter or something similar. Slumber and Misfortune are amongst the most powerful abiities a character 6th level or under can possess.

Have to say I love this idea. I'd be unable to pass up the opportunity to try a crazy multiclass combination in this sort of low-magic situation.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
soupturtle wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

The reason I make the point, is because the argument against an Adamantine Arrow, counting as Adamantine, when used in melee, makes no sense.

I agree. An adamantine arrow is a perfectly good improvised adamantine piercing weapon.

What it isn't, is a replacement for the multifunctional tool that is an adamantine dagger, as I would say you cannot apply much lateral force with it before the arrow shaft breaks.

Well, it's never going to have a long standing enchantment, like an adamantine dagger can.

Also, it a Durable Arrow, meant to be used over, and over.

You also would want a Large Adamantine Durable arrow, so that it would be an one-handed weapon.

So, it may be good for what it is, for the right build, but will never get better.

An Adamantine Wiresaw is only 150gp, and makes a fine improvised Garrote.

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