Custom Item (Multi-round per day Quick Runner's Shirt)


Advice

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So, I want to make a QUick Runner's Shirt that works mutilple times per day.

Quote:

Shirt, Quick Runner's

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 1,000 gp; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet.

Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 500 gp.

So if I want a quick runner's shirt that works four times per day is it the same as stacking magic abilities onto one item. Thus, the cost would be 1000 + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) = 5500 gold

Also, what would be the price of a continuous quick runner's shirt?


If you are the GM, yes, the pricing formula you posted for multiple activations looks accurate. I would recommend against it, however.

If you aren't, ask your GM as the quick runner's shirt is relatively broken and making it continuous is even more so. (It's actually one of the few things in Pathfinder I've house-ruled.)

-TimD

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A continuous quick runner shirt fall in the "very bad idea" folder.
Converting your swift action to a move action every turn can break the game very fast.

The price of a multiple use quick runner shirt in theory would be 1.000 gp * number of uses, as the current price should be based on 5.000 gp/5

If you look the magic item creation table, you will find this:
"Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
and probably the shirt was priced that way.

Again, a multiple use shirt is a bad idea in most games. It change completely the balance of several classes. As the shirt price is very low practically everyone (enemies included) would wear one as a system to rapidly close with the enemy or as a system for a rapid retreat.


TimD wrote:

If you are the GM, yes, the pricing formula you posted for multiple activations looks accurate. I would recommend against it, however.

If you aren't, ask your GM as the quick runner's shirt is relatively broken and making it continuous is even more so. (It's actually one of the few things in Pathfinder I've house-ruled.)

-TimD

How did you house rule it?


Diego Rossi wrote:

A continuous quick runner shirt fall in the "very bad idea" folder.

Converting your swift action to a move action every turn can break the game very fast.

The price of a multiple use quick runner shirt in theory would be 1.000 gp * number of uses, as the current price should be based on 5.000 gp/5

If you look the magic item creation table, you will find this:
"Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
and probably the shirt was priced that way.

Again, a multiple use shirt is a bad idea in most games. It change completely the balance of several classes. As the shirt price is very low practically everyone (enemies included) would wear one as a system to rapidly close with the enemy or as a system for a rapid retreat.

Interesting, I did not think it was broken. I guess I was thinking that at low levels a person normally only gets one attack a round. So, while it allows you to close easier, the result attack is the same.

I guess there are builds with more than one attack. Even then, I guess I still don't see broken. How is the belt being used by different builds to give a broken result. To me, it is putting melee artist on the same level as archers and spellcaster who can hit from range with their normal attacks without having to move.


I would price the item as Diego Rossi said 1,000 gold per use/day.

That said, I would never allow a Quickrunner's Shirt with more than three uses per day. The reason is that being able to make your swift action into a move action essentially gives the ability "Pounce" for 1000 gold, but pounce is a highly coveted and powerful ability which usually requires a large investment to acquire. (10 levels of Barbarian and 3 rage powers, for example.)


Blueluck wrote:

I would price the item as Diego Rossi said 1,000 gold per use/day.

That said, I would never allow a Quickrunner's Shirt with more than three uses per day. The reason is that being able to make your swift action into a move action essentially gives the ability "Pounce" for 1000 gold, but pounce is a highly coveted and powerful ability which usually requires a large investment to acquire. (10 levels of Barbarian and 3 rage powers, for example.)

Is this paizo's way of bringing pounce to classes other than the barbarian? Maybe paizo has decided that this ability should no longer be only placed in the hands of the 10th level barbarian or 5th level synthesist


Blueluck wrote:
pounce is a highly coveted and powerful ability which usually requires a large investment to acquire.

This is true.

It is also true that it absolutely should not be so difficult to gain.

The fact that it is such a pain to get is the reason why Archer builds wipe the floor with melee builds.

It's also one of the reasons why Casters are so much more effective than non-casters.

Archers don't have to move in order to be at full effectiveness. Casters can move and still be at full effectiveness.

A multi-use quick-runner's shirt is a step in the right direction.


Driver 325 yards wrote:

Interesting, I did not think it was broken. I guess I was thinking that at low levels a person normally only gets one attack a round. So, while it allows you to close easier, the result attack is the same.

To me, it is putting melee artist on the same level as archers and spellcaster who can hit from range with their normal attacks without having to move.

This may be true.

But remember that spellcasters have daily limits. They only get a few of their best spells and maybe some more second-rate (lower level) options too.

Archers have some difficulties of their own, like lower damage per hit, so while they can full-attack every round, they still don't dish out as much damage on a full-attack as most melee bruisers (yes, I know, there are also a few extremely high-damaging archer builds).

A continuous Quickrunner Shirt lets the classes that do the most DPR do it more often, without the limits that other classes have - this really can break the balance between classes.

I really wish the Quickrunner Shirt turned a Move action into two Move actions, thus allowing someone to run quickly (as the name implies), but not run AND massacre quickly. Alas, it was not to be...


If you want to make an adjustment to the game in order make melee characters more powerful, in particular to make TWF builds the supreme melee and DPR strategy, then adding a high-use quickrunner's shirt would fit the bill.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Low level characters that would love a quickrunner shirt:
- magus (move and spell combat)
- two weapon users
- monks
- rogues (move and attack in the surprise round)
- anyone that want to avoid melee combat.

- * -

One of the problems of the shirt is that , with a so low price, it become a mandatory item for almost anyone.
Sure it will allow the melee combatant to close and o a full attack, but it allow the wizard/sorcerer/archer/other to avoid the melee combatant and still do their stuff, so it become simply a question of "who has already used the shirt power?".

A quickrunner shirt don't simply give the equivalent of pounce, it give fly by attack and a weaker version of spring attack too.
For 1.000 gp one encounter/day with a monster that don't use magic items became noticeably easier. With a multiple uses or unlimited uses s#++ every encounter of that type become easier.

DN Blake idea is an interesting one.

So we could price


The Quick Runners Shirt should not add an action to your turn .. it should change your landspeed for a turn. Action economy is one of the most important things in higher levels and this item is very powerfull for its price (and even more powerfull if you have more than one use).

I would change the shirt to "Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can double his landspeed for one turn."

With this change an item with multiple uses is no problem.


I have this shirt on my rogue. I had not thought of all the ramifications presented here, nor have I thought about upping it into something more powerful.

That being said and having read this, there is another work around for the original poster. At 1000gp buy more than 1. Change your shirt after use when time permits.

I don't play that way, but for those that do. There you go.

Btw, I use mine for those rare special moments, and a couple of been rather dramatic and party saving. Doing it every round would indeed be overly powerful, and quite frankly, less fun in the end.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
TimD wrote:

If you are the GM, yes, the pricing formula you posted for multiple activations looks accurate. I would recommend against it, however.

If you aren't, ask your GM as the quick runner's shirt is relatively broken and making it continuous is even more so. (It's actually one of the few things in Pathfinder I've house-ruled.)

-TimD

How did you house rule it?

I have a metaphysics term called "warmth", which is basically a short hand way of describing how long it takes an item to attune to a person (or the person to an object in some cases) and become active. The main example I can think of out of base PF is a ring of sustenance. In my games, Quick Runner's Shirts have to be worn for a static amount of time (I'm at work not at home, so I can't recall how many hours it is, I think 4 hours though) before they are "warmed" to the character so that I don't have higher level PCs changing shirts after every battle and always having an extra move action available.

-TimD

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TimD wrote:


I have a metaphysics term called "warmth", which is basically a short hand way of describing how long it takes an item to attune to a person (or the person to an object in some cases) and become active. The main example I can think of out of base PF is a ring of sustenance. In my games, Quick Runner's Shirts have to be worn for a static amount of time (I'm at work not at home, so I can't recall how many hours it is, I think 4 hours though) before they are "warmed" to the character so that I don't have higher level PCs changing shirts after every battle and always having an extra move action available.

-TimD

For items such as the basic quickrunner's shirt, I require a 24 hour attunement period. You transfer the shirt to someone else, you're now de-attuned and the clock starts running for the second character who will be able to use it.... 24 hours later.

The multi-use quick-runner, is a non-starter as you've written it up.


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Would not a continuous quick runner shirt cost $50,000. Is not that enough money to justify the awesomeness of the shirt. I think so.

What else can you get for $50,000. Let's see,

+5 weapon
+10 shield or armor
+4 Belt of Physical Might with 10K left over
Boot of Teleportation with 1K left over
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+5 Ring of Protection
Ring of Invisibility, Boots of Speed, +4 belt of Strength
Cloak of Displacement, Major

I guess I still don't see it. yes, it is powerful to have a continuous runners shirt. Then again, most things or combination of things that runs 50K are pretty powerful.

I also cannot concede that if their were a continuous version everyone would buy it over all the other great options they could choose for 50K/

I actually think that the argument is stronger that there should not be a low cost version. The low cost version makes the pounce/spring attack/whatever utility available at an earlier level than otherwise would be allowed. For instance, what if there was a ring of invisibilty, lesser that allowed you to go invisible for 20 rounds per day at a cost of 2K. Now that would be far more sought after than a ring of invisibility.


DM_Blake wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Interesting, I did not think it was broken. I guess I was thinking that at low levels a person normally only gets one attack a round. So, while it allows you to close easier, the result attack is the same.

To me, it is putting melee artist on the same level as archers and spellcaster who can hit from range with their normal attacks without having to move.

This may be true.

But...

Archers have some difficulties of their own, like lower damage per hit, so while they can full-attack every round, they still don't dish out as much damage on a full-attack as most melee bruisers (yes, I know, there are also a few extremely high-damaging archer builds).

There are not just a few Extremely High Damaging Archer Builds.


Pricing is not correct there.

It uses 1 charge, you want to change it to 4 charges look at hwo charges work.

Away from book so goign by memory... if 1 charge is 500 the defaut of 5 charges woudl be 2500 so four charges would be 2k.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Would not a continuous quick runner shirt cost $50,000. Is not that enough money to justify the awesomeness of the shirt. I think so.

It the shirt price was decided using the "Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" line, the price of a unlimited uses shirt would be 5,000 (five thousand) gp, less than a +2 weapon.


LazarX wrote:
TimD wrote:

I have a metaphysics term called "warmth", which is basically a short hand way of describing how long it takes an item to attune to a person (or the person to an object in some cases) and become active. The main example I can think of out of base PF is a ring of sustenance. In my games, Quick Runner's Shirts have to be worn for a static amount of time (I'm at work not at home, so I can't recall how many hours it is, I think 4 hours though) before they are "warmed" to the character so that I don't have higher level PCs changing shirts after every battle and always having an extra move action available.

-TimD

For items such as the basic quickrunner's shirt, I require a 24 hour attunement period. You transfer the shirt to someone else, you're now de-attuned and the clock starts running for the second character who will be able to use it.... 24 hours later.

The multi-use quick-runner, is a non-starter as you've written it up.

So you're basically doing the same thing, except instead of saying "this item requires 24 hours to attune" I would have a notation that says "Warmth: 24 hours". 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.

Also, I think you have me confused with the OP. I did not write up a multi-use Quick Runner's Shirt. I actually recommended against it.

-Tim


Diego Rossi wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Would not a continuous quick runner shirt cost $50,000. Is not that enough money to justify the awesomeness of the shirt. I think so.

It the shirt price was decided using the "Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" line, the price of a unlimited uses shirt would be 5,000 (five thousand) gp, less than a +2 weapon.

Your calculation is incorrect. The default price for 5 uses per day is figure out by saying 1000 = x/5/1charge per day. x=5000. So a five charge a day item would be $5000. If you were pricing an unlimited amount of charges per day you double the cost of 50 charges per day.

Fifty charges per day would cost 50000 = 5000/5/50. Unlimited charges per day would cost 100,000 = 50,000*2.

I guess I answered my own original question. The pricing definitely justifies the ability of the item.


50,000 gold does not in anyway balance it out. It takes a 20th level fighter to be able to replicate this ability, or a 10th level barbarian with beast totem (and only then on a charge). 10 character levels is way more expensive than 50,000 gp.

I'm a big proponent of martial characters, I'm always first in line to the "Let's nerf casters"paloza, but this item would just be too unbalancing. It you wanted to allow such an item better to just tell everyone you can take a full attack as a standard action, the repurcussions will be the same.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Would not a continuous quick runner shirt cost $50,000. Is not that enough money to justify the awesomeness of the shirt. I think so.

It the shirt price was decided using the "Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" line, the price of a unlimited uses shirt would be 5,000 (five thousand) gp, less than a +2 weapon.

Your calculation is incorrect. The default price for 5 uses per day is figure out by saying 1000 = x/5/1charge per day. x=5000. So a five charge a day item would be $5000. If you were pricing an unlimited amount of charges per day you double the cost of 50 charges per day.

Fifty charges per day would cost 50000 = 5000/5/50. Unlimited charges per day would cost 100,000 = 50,000*2.

I guess I answered my own original question. The pricing definitely justifies the ability of the item.

I suppose you use this as a reference for your interpretation:

PRD wrote:


Charged (50 charges) 1/2 unlimited use base price Ring of the ram)

but there is a little thing that you haven't noticed, the example item:

PRD wrote:


Ring of the Ram
....
A newly created ring has 50 charges. When all the charges are expended, the ring becomes a nonmagical item.

There is not a "50 charges/day" line, it is a "50 charges before the item power is consumed forever" line.

A item that has 50 charges before being forever depleted cost 1/2 of a constant item. But a constant item and a item that has 5 uses/day, both based on the same spell, have the same base price before applying this modifier:

PRD wrote:
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

A 5 used day shirt would cost 5.000 gp, a unlimited use shirt would use the modifier as the base spell is haste and would cost 20.000 gp. Still a bargain as the extra move action is applied to all forms of movement.


Diego Rossi wrote:

PRD wrote:

2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half....

A 5 used day shirt would cost 5.000 gp, a unlimited use shirt would use the modifier as the base spell is haste and would cost 20.000 gp. Still a bargain as the extra move action is applied to all forms of movement.

While I would be okay with the 20K, clearly there is something wrong with the assumptions you made to reach 20K.

The continuous item called "ring of invisibility", which is based on a second level spell and is measured in mintues as opposed to rounds cost $20K.

If we just extrapolate the cost of a "continuous quick runners shirt" that is based on the third level spell haste and that is create from a spell that is based on rounds as opposed to minutes, we will get a much higher price than 20K.

Taking the (round vs minutes) into consideration the price doubles from 20K to 40K. Taking the 2nd level spell vs. 3rd level spell into consideration and you get 40*(3/2) = 60K. Take the caster levels into effect (3rd v. 5th) and you get 60K*(5/3) = 100K.

Now, I have shown you how you get to 100K two different way. The second way I used the very material that you quoted. I am quite sure that I am right so I do need to hear a reply trying to convince me otherwise.

My question to you is, assuming that I am right for the sake of argument, would you have any problem with the pricing of a continuous quick runner's shirt at 100K?


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Claxon wrote:

50,000 gold does not in anyway balance it out. It takes a 20th level fighter to be able to replicate this ability, or a 10th level barbarian with beast totem (and only then on a charge). 10 character levels is way more expensive than 50,000 gp.

I'm a big proponent of martial characters, I'm always first in line to the "Let's nerf casters"paloza, but this item would just be too unbalancing. It you wanted to allow such an item better to just tell everyone you can take a full attack as a standard action, the repurcussions will be the same.

Okay, let's breathe and look at things rationally. A chararacter's wealth does not surpass 50K until 10th level (right around the time that a barbarian gets pounce). Second, is a character going to walk around naked with just a quick runner's shirt on. I think not. So, the next question is when can a character really afford a 50K item. I would say somewhere around 13th or 14th level. However, there are so many other good 50K items that it would be far reaching to assume that everyone would have this item as soon as they could afford it. Many melee characters would, but that is who you would expect to purchase such an item. Archers would not purchase it as soon as possible. Mages would not. Barbarians with pounce may not.

Heck, give me the boots of teleportation over this item any day of the week. Nothing like the escapability it offers.


Oh, and by the way, the continuous version is 100K anyway.


Pricing a custom magic items is always tricky. The fact that the Quick Runners Shirt is so cheap makes it more so. I would think pricing a "always on version" so that a 12th level character could purchase it might be alright, as it allows the barbarian to get pounce earlier (feeling smug and special) and everyone else can purchase it a bit later to help martials catch up w/ casters.

What that price would be is up for debate, I hate pricing custom items and certainly won't go to the trouble for a random internet discussion. :P Anyway, not all games follow WBL as rigidly as some, so the GM really needs to consider it in regards to their game.

For those of you that think it is unbalancing, just don't put it in your game (it is custom after all). :)


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Oh, and by the way, the continuous version is 100K anyway.

Not true:

According to the CRB, "The formula for a continuous spell effect is spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp" (a direct quote). A 3rd level spell has a minimum caster level of 5, so a continuous Haste Shirt could be made for 3 x 5 x 2,000 gp = 30,000 gp. This would give the full effect of Haste at all times: bonus to AC, attacks, movement speed, and an extra attack every round.

Quickrunner's shirt is NOT the Haste spell. It doesn't give all the bonuses, it only gives a once per day ability to move as a swift action. A whole new effect that does not exist as a spell. Yes, it uses Haste as the spell that needs to be cast while crafting the item, but it is NOT Haste.

The CRB says that the best way to figure out the price of a new item is to find the most similar item and use that item's price as a guideline: "The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item." (another direct quote).

What is the item that is most similar to a Constant Quickrunner's Shirt? Easy, a normal Quickrunner's Shirt. That's obvious.

The normal shirt costs 1,000 gp. The price formulas tell us that an item with 1 use per day should cost 1/5 of what the same item would cost if it has unlimited charges per day: "Charges per day = Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" (direct quote).

Therefore, the Continuous Quickrunner's Shirt would cost 5,000 GP and have unlimited daily uses. Per the Core Rulebook.


Okay DM Blake, so a ring of invisibility should cost 2x3x2000=12K? Only it really cost $20K.

My question that is still on the table is if the item were priced at 30, 50, 100 would it be reasonably priced, given that we can all justify pricing the items different ways.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

PRD wrote:

2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half....

A 5 used day shirt would cost 5.000 gp, a unlimited use shirt would use the modifier as the base spell is haste and would cost 20.000 gp. Still a bargain as the extra move action is applied to all forms of movement.

While I would be okay with the 20K, clearly there is something wrong with the assumptions you made to reach 20K.

The continuous item called "ring of invisibility", which is based on a second level spell and is measured in mintues as opposed to rounds cost $20K.

If we just extrapolate the cost of a "continuous quick runners shirt" that is based on the third level spell haste and that is create from a spell that is based on rounds as opposed to minutes, we will get a much higher price than 20K.

Taking the (round vs minutes) into consideration the price doubles from 20K to 40K. Taking the 2nd level spell vs. 3rd level spell into consideration and you get 40*(3/2) = 60K. Take the caster levels into effect (3rd v. 5th) and you get 60K*(5/3) = 100K.

Now, I have shown you how you get to 100K two different way. The second way I used the very material that you quoted. I am quite sure that I am right so I do need to hear a reply trying to convince me otherwise.

First and foremost rule in pricing items: if a item with a specific power already exist you base the price on the item, not on the table.

The quickrunner shirt exist so you should start with it to price an item with the same power.

PRD wrote:


The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.

reinforce by:

Ultimate campaign wrote:
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items in the Core Rulebook (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values on page 549 of the Core Rulebook), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item.

By the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table a quickrunner shirt would cost:

2000*3(spell level)*5(caster level)/5=6.000 gp
Instead it cost 1.000 gp.

DM Blake make an interesting argument about the price, but there is the problem that the shirt power can be used in conjunction with haste,

Driver 325 yards wrote:


My question to you is, assuming that I am right for the sake of argument, would you have any problem with the pricing of a continuous quick runner's shirt at 100K?

Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Okay DM Blake, so a ring of invisibility should cost 2x3x2000=12K? Only it really cost $20K.

My question that is still on the table is if the item were priced at 30, 50, 100 would it be reasonably priced, given that we can all justify pricing the items different ways.

If you search UE you will find plenty of items that not follow the guidelines of the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table.


Quote:
Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Thanks, that is the honest answer I was looking for.

Quote:

By the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table a quickrunner shirt would cost:

2000*3(spell level)*5(caster level)/5)=6.000 gp
Instead it cost 1.000 gp.

Is it not possible that the makers of this item knew that haste would normally last for several rounds and this item only works for one round, thus they adjusted the price down to 1K from 6K.

If you were pricing an item that last for an unlimited amount of time you should first have to restore the items price to the place were it would work for several rounds per use. So a single use quick runners shirt that worked for 5 rounds should cost 6K (similar to a haste shirt). From there you could make it unlimited at 30K. Just using the formulas you guys suggest.

Anyway, I guess this exercise is less the fruitful as pointed out by Strannik. I will just agree to disagree on the notion that the item is at all prices overpowerful. I will also have to disagree that rationally pricing the item based on other items that are already priced would lead to a $5K amount for an unlimited use quick runners shirt.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Quote:
Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Thanks, that is the honest answer I was looking for.

I think that even the single use shirt is unbalancing.

My comment the first time I have seen it was:
"Where I can buy a half dozen of those?" [sarcasms] and then "They don't exist in my campaign.", followed by the same statement from all the GM that I know.

Scarab Sages

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Also, what would be the price of a continuous quick runner's shirt?

About the same as the price of a Katana with continuous true strike.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Strannik wrote:

Pricing a custom magic items is always tricky. The fact that the Quick Runners Shirt is so cheap makes it more so. I would think pricing a "always on version" so that a 12th level character could purchase it might be alright, as it allows the barbarian to get pounce earlier (feeling smug and special) and everyone else can purchase it a bit later to help martials catch up w/ casters.

What that price would be is up for debate, I hate pricing custom items and certainly won't go to the trouble for a random internet discussion. :P Anyway, not all games follow WBL as rigidly as some, so the GM really needs to consider it in regards to their game.

For those of you that think it is unbalancing, just don't put it in your game (it is custom after all). :)

Magic item formulas for cost it it is emphatically mentioned in the test are not the guarantee of a balanced or proper item. Just because you can price an item by formula does not mean that the item is balanced or should even be allowed. There is a major disincentive to balance an item properly when you're designing it from the viewpoint of what you want as a player.

Grand Lodge

the way I would price it...

multi use goes up quadratically. 2 per day is 4000 and 5 times per day is 25000.

continous is like a continous true strike item...it doesn't exisit you munchkin.


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Cold Napalm wrote:

the way I would price it...

multi use goes up quadratically. 2 per day is 4000 and 5 times per day is 25000.

continous is like a continous true strike item...it doesn't exisit you munchkin.

At first your response was very reasonable. I like the way you priced it. After all, that was my original question.

Then, of course, you had to finish your comment with an insult.

Why can't we keep the comments relevant to the question and resist the temptation to call people names.

It's so first grade


Diego Rossi wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Quote:
Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Thanks, that is the honest answer I was looking for.

I think that even the single use shirt is unbalancing.

My comment the first time I have seen it was:
"Where I can buy a half dozen of those?" [sarcasms] and then "They don't exist in my campaign.", followed by the same statement from all the GM that I know.

Others have found a more balanced approach. If you read above, some make rules that all item have a period of attunement of 1 day. therefore, you could not just buy a dozen and keep placing a new one on.

With that said, it is clear that you think the item is too powerful to be purchased at any cost (lol). After you expressed that, everything else you state is pretty much irrelevant.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Quote:
Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Thanks, that is the honest answer I was looking for.

I think that even the single use shirt is unbalancing.

My comment the first time I have seen it was:
"Where I can buy a half dozen of those?" [sarcasms] and then "They don't exist in my campaign.", followed by the same statement from all the GM that I know.

By the way, I GM and I allow it. Now you can no longer say that all the other GMs you know don't allow it. I have no problem with once per day a character being able to make a swift action move. In fact, I am so okay with it that I am having a hard time even understanding what the big deal is.

A continuous version, I will admit, would add a lot of power to a character. However, I don't beleive it would be as powerful as a true strike weapon, as was suggested above. That "truly strikes" me as absurd. I believe such an items could be priced at 50k. If you want to disagree with me on this then okay I get that others could disagree and have a true concern.

However, once per day, please!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Don't you know that Melee can't have nice things?

Also: A Magus can get a +5 Weapon a limited number of times a day at 17th level. Obviously a continual use magic weapon is broken, they should be banned from the game.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Don't you know that Melee can't have nice things?

Also: A Magus can get a +5 Weapon a limited number of times a day at 17th level. Obviously a continual use magic weapon is broken, they should be banned from the game.

LOL. The problem, however, is that I know you are being sacrastic. Judging from the comments above, some of the others on this thread will actually think you are pushing for what they have probably already house ruled in their home games.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Don't you know that Melee can't have nice things?

Also: A Magus can get a +5 Weapon a limited number of times a day at 17th level. Obviously a continual use magic weapon is broken, they should be banned from the game.

LOL. The problem, however, is that I know you are being sacrastic. Judging from the comments above, some of the others on this thread will actually think you are pushing for what they have probably already house ruled in their home games.

@Driver 325 yards: You can joke but i don't understand why you ask a question for which you've already an answer, and anyway you don't any care from others answers.

Discuss with you seems to me fruitless...


Driver 325 yards wrote:

So, I want to make a QUick Runner's Shirt that works mutilple times per day.

Quote:

Shirt, Quick Runner's

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 1,000 gp; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet.

Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 500 gp.

So if I want a quick runner's shirt that works four times per day is it the same as stacking magic abilities onto one item. Thus, the cost would be 1000 + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) = 5500 gold

Also, what would be the price of a continuous quick runner's shirt?

I agree with the majority that the quick runner shirt provides too much advantage to price according to base guideline.

If I were GM'ing, I'd base the 'per day' price on the weapon plus costs 2/day 8,000... 3/day 18,000 etc. which should create enough pressure on the WBL guidelines for a character to afford it, but not without making sacrifices elsewhere.

A player attempting to craft a continuous use quick runner's shirt would receive an unqualified 'no' from me as GM. It fell into "Artifact" level of power and is not available to craft.


Defraeter wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Don't you know that Melee can't have nice things?

Also: A Magus can get a +5 Weapon a limited number of times a day at 17th level. Obviously a continual use magic weapon is broken, they should be banned from the game.

LOL. The problem, however, is that I know you are being sacrastic. Judging from the comments above, some of the others on this thread will actually think you are pushing for what they have probably already house ruled in their home games.

@Driver 325 yards: You can joke but i don't understand why you ask a question for which you've already an answer, and anyway you don't any care from others answers.

Discuss with you seems to me fruitless...

Have you read the thread. I started off asking how you would price the item because I honestly did not know. Some answer this question with ridiculous answer like (it would cost 5K) others with answers like (it should have basically an infinite cost). It seemed like many of the answers I was getting were from people who were less concerned with giving me an honest answer and more concerned with making the price riduculously low and/or high to support their agenda that the item is unbalanced.

I did not ask if the quick runners shirt was unbalanced. I do not care to hear if others think that a legal item that gives you one swift action move per day is unbalanced. I just wanted people without an agenda to help me price the item.

Further, if you cared to read all of the comments, you would know that I did appreciate some of the answers that were given to the extent that they were not agenda biased answers.

"I house ruled X in my game" So what?


MC Templar wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:

So, I want to make a QUick Runner's Shirt that works mutilple times per day.

Quote:

Shirt, Quick Runner's

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 1,000 gp; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet.

Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 500 gp.

So if I want a quick runner's shirt that works four times per day is it the same as stacking magic abilities onto one item. Thus, the cost would be 1000 + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) + 1000(1.5) = 5500 gold

Also, what would be the price of a continuous quick runner's shirt?

I agree with the majority that the quick runner shirt provides too much advantage to price according to base guideline.

If I were GM'ing, I'd base the 'per day' price on the weapon plus costs 2/day 8,000... 3/day 18,000 etc. which should create enough pressure on the WBL guidelines for a character to afford it, but not without making sacrifices elsewhere.

A player attempting to craft a continuous use quick runner's shirt would receive an unqualified 'no' from me as GM. It fell into "Artifact" level of power and is not available to craft.

Thank you for a straight forward answer to my question without layering it with your house rule thoughts on disallowing the quick runner shirt altogether or giving me some ridiculously low and/or high prices.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Quote:
Yes. it is a very unbalanced item at any price.

Thanks, that is the honest answer I was looking for.

I think that even the single use shirt is unbalancing.

My comment the first time I have seen it was:
"Where I can buy a half dozen of those?" [sarcasms] and then "They don't exist in my campaign.", followed by the same statement from all the GM that I know.

Others have found a more balanced approach. If you read above, some make rules that all item have a period of attunement of 1 day. therefore, you could not just buy a dozen and keep placing a new one on.

With that said, it is clear that you think the item is too powerful to be purchased at any cost (lol). After you expressed that, everything else you state is pretty much irrelevant.

And that just after berating Cold Napalm for the same behavior.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Then, of course, you had to finish your comment with an insult.

Why can't we keep the comments relevant to the question and resist the temptation to call people names.

It's so first grade

I have already explained in this thread why I feel it is a unbalanced item, but is worth repeating it:

1) if the quickrunner shirt exist it is a must for practically anyone that can afford it. The benefit of having one and the drawback of lacking it are too great to miss this item.
2) as soon as you have the shirt it become easiest to manage every creature that can't use it, either because it became easier to fight them or because it became easier to avoid them.

Making the shirt usable only once/day with no chance to don another shirt will only push people even more toward the 15 minutes adventuring day. "So long as I have the use of the shirt available all is good. After I have used it we should stop and camp till it recharge." Wonderful way to play.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


By the way, I GM and I allow it. Now you can no longer say that all the other GMs you know don't allow it. I have no problem with once per day a character being able to make a swift action move. In fact, I am so okay with it that I am having a hard time even understanding what the big deal is.

You are a poster on the Paizo forum, that don't make you in any way a GM I know.


I think the Quick Runner's shirt is a much needed addition to the game, something that should be part of the core system, and I think the price reflects this. Move + Full attack should be an option for Martial classes at least once an encounter a few times a day and this item provides that.

I feel like anyone who is trying to slap extra restriction on the QRS are kind of missing the point of the item.


Diego Rossi wrote:


I have already explained in this thread why I feel it is a unbalanced item, but is worth repeating it:
1) if the quickrunner shirt exist it is a must for practically anyone that can afford it. The benefit of having one and the drawback of lacking it are too great to miss this item.
2) as soon as you have the shirt it become easiest to manage every creature that can't use it, either because it became easier to fight them or because it became easier to avoid them.

Making the shirt usable only once/day with no chance to don another shirt will only push people even more toward the 15 minutes adventuring day. "So long as I have the use of the shirt available all is good. After I have used it we should stop and camp till it recharge." Wonderful way to play.

It is not worth repeating because that is not what this thread was about. It was about how to price a multi-use QRS.

Second, a lot of things are must have items. Lets see, weapons(greatsword, rapiers, flacions, bastard sword, longswords are mainstays), armor, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, Vest of Resistance, Pearls of Power for wizards, etc... People choose the same basic items over and over again. It is kind of like feats. What fighter or barbarian does not choose Power Attack? That does not mean any of these things should be banned. It just means that they are needed and nothing else can fulfill that need. It is a shame that only a quick runners shirt can bring a meleer on par with an archer and a mage at the beginning of encounters. However, it is the only thing therefore it will be sought after for sure.

As for a quick runners shirt making everyone camp after its use. That is goofy. Further, how would you know otherwise because you won't allow it in your games. Further, I don't care about you unsubstantiated fears of the quick runner shirt bringing your adventures to a halt. Again, I did not ask you for your comments on the issue.

Maybe I will start a question named "what are all the things that Diego Rossi has house ruled", if I ever decide to care.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The quick runner's shirt is definitely a bargain at it's base price. However, melee combatants could use the buff relative to ranged attackers or casters as long as it's only occasional.
I'd only allow it in my campaigns with a house rule that switching shirts couldn't let you use one twice a day or more, or similar to the 'warming' period mentioned above.

A continuous shirt is too overpowered for normal campaigns.

Grand Lodge

Driver 325 yards wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

the way I would price it...

multi use goes up quadratically. 2 per day is 4000 and 5 times per day is 25000.

continous is like a continous true strike item...it doesn't exisit you munchkin.

At first your response was very reasonable. I like the way you priced it. After all, that was my original question.

Then, of course, you had to finish your comment with an insult.

Why can't we keep the comments relevant to the question and resist the temptation to call people names.

It's so first grade

If you MUST have a value, I would multiply the 5 times per day by 4...so 200k...which is incidentally what I would charge for a continuous true strike item...IF I was in the mood to play in a broken game. Continuous of both WILL BREAK YOUR GAME. No seriously. Been there, done that...know the story already. If you don't realize that either of those will break games, you either lack the system mastery to seriously be even thinking about custom items...or your a munchkin. I mean seriously, when pretty much everyone else is saying it's a bad idea...it probably is a BAD IDEA. If you wanna run a game with it, go for it...if your looking to use this is a game your playing...sorry, munchkin is an appropriate title for somebody who would demand such a game breaking item in a game.

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