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My question is exactly that. Specifically, the interaction between Throw Anything and the Alchemical Weapon ability of the Grenadier archetype.
Throw Anything
All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
Alchemical Weapon
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck.
So if I were to infuse, say, an acid flask (a splash weapon) into my arrow and fire it, would it gain the +Intelligence damage modifier from Throw Anything, despite the fact it no longer splashes? The fact that Throw Anything says 'if any' in regards to the splash damage makes me think it works with splash weapons that don't splash.
You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
It's no longer thrown, so Throw Anything's boon no longer applies.
I was referring specifically to "An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any" It's not a thrown weapon, but it is a splash weapon, even if it doesn't splash.
You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.It's no longer thrown, so Throw Anything's boon no longer applies.
The feat Throw Anything is not granting the Alchemist the INT bonus. The class feature is called Throw Anything; it grants the feat called Throw Anything, and additionally allows the alchemist to add his INT modifier as damage to any splash weapon; the latter portion does not indicate that the splash weapon in question be 'thrown', only that it be classified as a splash weapon.
Take Grenadier out of it, and look at the Explosive Missile discovery; it indiciates that even though you're infusing the 'bomb' into a missile, it still deals damage per the bomb (which would include INT damage, because that is figured into the Bomb ability's base damage). Another example: Breath Weapon Bomb discovery - even though it is now a cone breath weapon instead of a splash weapon, it indicates that the effect still deals damage per the bomb, including the Alchemist's INT modifier to damage.
So I'd say yes, a Grenadier would add his INT to the damage when using the Alchemical Weapon ability.
Amusingly, the Alchemical Weapon ability and Explosive Missile don't seem to be mutually exclusive, meaning I could take an alchemical arrow (like a slow burn arrow), infuse it with alchemist's fire, then infuse it with an immolation bomb, and fire off an arrow that deals 2x Intelligence extra damage and makes sure the target is well and thoroughly lit on fire.
Alchemical Weapon also works well with the Focused Aim feat, since I can also double dip +Int damage there.
Alchemical Weapon also works well with the Focused Aim feat, since I can also double dip +Int damage there.
It's Focused Shot, and I could see taking it if you already have the Imbue Missile (or whatever it's called) discovery.
But then why say "if any"? That seems to indicate the weapon doesn't need to splash to gain a bonus.
| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you remove the splash for any reason, it's no longer a splash weapon.
Citation please?
In the meantime:
FAQ question: Does an Alchemist add his INT bonus to damage when delivering a splash weapon using the Alchemical Weapon ability from the Grenadier archetype?
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If you remove the splash for any reason, it's no longer a splash weapon.Citation please?
In the meantime:
FAQ question: Does an Alchemist add his INT bonus to damage when delivering a splash weapon using the Alchemical Weapon ability from the Grenadier archetype?
This post is marked "answered in the errata", but which ones? I can't find any errata that answers this.
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Alchemical Weapon also works well with the Focused Aim feat, since I can also double dip +Int damage there.It's Focused Shot, and I could see taking it if you already have the Imbue Missile (or whatever it's called) discovery.
The discovery is called explosive missile. Unfortunately those are both standard actions so can't be used together.
This post is marked "answered in the errata", but which ones? I can't find any errata that answers this.If you remove the splash for any reason, it's no longer a splash weapon.Citation please?
In the meantime:
FAQ question: Does an Alchemist add his INT bonus to damage when delivering a splash weapon using the Alchemical Weapon ability from the Grenadier archetype?
Haven't we (and by that I mean me and you specifically) had this discussion before?
"Answered in the Errata" is what "No Reply Required" used to be, before they added the "No Reply Required" option.
It's really pretty binary.
1.) Is it a Splash Weapon? If so, you add Int to damage (regardless of whether it actually deals splash damage).
2.) Is it not a splash weapon? Then you don't.
An infused piece of ammunition is a piece of ammunition, not a splash weapon. Just like a Flaming Burst sword is not actually a Fireball spell.
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@Rynjin: so is it 1 or 2?
Suppose I add an Acid Flask onto an arrow. The AF is a splash weapon. Alchemical Weapon says it won't do splash damage, but the alchemist's Throw Anything ability doesn't seem to care: "An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage [/b]if any[b]"
So does that mean I get +1d6+IntMod bonus damage on my arrow? It seems too good to be true.
THAT is the ambiguous part. My initial reaction was no (since it's no longer a Splash Weapon), but it DOES say "takes full effect", so maybe.
I think you're gonna see table variance.
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What about a fuse grenade?..
... You throw a fuse grenade as if it were a splash weapon...
... but it hits a burst and doesn't 'splash' like alchemist's fire, and doesn't even detonate on the same turn you throw it (unless you try to cook it off and not throw it for a turn or two, I guess...). Do Alchemists still get to add their Int bonus to the damage?
I'd say no. Doesn't explode on impact (part of the definition of a Splash Weapon is that they explode on impact when thrown).
A pellet grenade, on the other hand, does if I recall.
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A pellet grenade explodes the same way a fuse grenade does, as it's just a varient fuse grenade, and the text doesn't say it works differently...
... This variant of a fuse grenade has most of the black powder replaced with metal pellets. When it explodes, it deals...
... nothing about exploding on impact, I'm sorry to say.
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I don't get it. If you've got a special ability called 'throw anything', surely you could only claim its benefits when you are THROWING something, even if some other ability allows you to jury-rig that thrown object onto some other (non-thrown) type of attack.
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Okay, I think I got it.
Alchemical Weapon (Su)
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.
This ability replaces poison resistance.
The text doesn't actually say that the weapon doesn't splash on the main target - who suffers the full effect. It only says that it doesn't splash onto additional targets.
Throw Anything (Ex)
All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
Although the ability has "throw" in the name, as written is applies to all damage done by splash damage, not just when they're thrown. Reading too much into the title is a bad habit I think; PF is full of abilities that don't do quite what their titles suggest.
Also, Throw Anything suggests that you can add damage to a splash weapon that's not currently doing splash damage; the "including splash damage if any".
Throw Anything
All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
Note the direct reference to the "throw anything feat":
Throw Anything (Combat)
You are used to throwing things you have on hand.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
So you could throw a chair. A flower pot. A bottle of 190 proof Old Grandad. Your mother-in-law's pewter pig collection. A stoat.
If you threw the chair, the flower pot or the stoat, it probably wouldn't count as a splash weapon, not gaining any INT bonus, but still not suffering the -4. The bottle of Old Grandad and perhaps the pewter pig collection might count as splash weapons with splash damage (especially the bottle, if it had a flaming wick) gaining the INT bonus and perhaps even the spash damage plus INT bonus.
But I don't see where y'all get off suggesting that this INT bonus applies in any situation where you are not throwing anything. It's one special class ability called "throw anything" that begins by specifically referencing the feat of the same name, and then going on to add a special bonus gained (when throwing specific items) by the clas it's attached to, namely the alchemist.
No throw, no INT bonus. Anything else is wishful thinking.
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Even the section on splash weapons in the combat chapter hints that splash weapons are not necessarily always thrown;
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
A splash weapon is a splash weapon because it's got break-on-impact and then splashes over the target and nearby stuff. This is still the case with Alchemical Weapon; it still splashes onto the main target (who suffers "full effect"). So it's still a splash weapon, it just doesn't do any collateral damage.
The alchemist's Throw Anything ability says
Throw Anything
All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
It does NOT say "with thrown splash weapons". It's not restricted to that.
The Throw Anything feat is also pretty irrelevant actually, because you don't need it to throw splash weapons, because those require no proficiency in the first place.
All in all, the alchemist ability is a bit of a misnomer, because it does something (increasing splash damage) that has nothing to do with the Throw Anything feat at all.
All in all, the alchemist ability is a bit of a misnomer, because it does something (increasing splash damage) that has nothing to do with the Throw Anything feat at all.
To me, that suggests that we're reading the ability wrong. If the intent was to give INT bonus to all splash weapons that alchemists use, it would not be so mysteriously placed inside an ability called "throw". Admittedly, the wording is ambiguous. Leading doubtlessly to DM adjudication.
As a player, I could live with the interpretation being promoted on this thread. But deep inside, I'm convinced that RAI doesn't support this, and the rule is intended to give Alchemists an INT bonus when throwing splash weapons, not when doing something else funky with splash weapons. As a DM I would go with a more restricted interpretation and hope the players copuld see how RAI *could* be interpreted that way.
YMMV.
Dunno, are they *throwing* something or not?
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Zwordsman makes a good point upthread: table 2-16 in Ultimate Equipment lists 'splash' under the 'special' heading for some weapons, just like other weapons tables list things like 'reach' or 'trip'. So, is a 'splash weapon' which loses the 'splash' feature still classed as a 'splash weapon'? I guess it'd be the same as asking if a 'reach' weapon which loses the 'reach' feature is still classed as a 'reach weapon'...
As for the Alchemist's 'Throw Anything' Class Feature, it basically does two things:
a) Grants the Throw Anything Feat as a bonus Feat.
b) Lets the alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any.
b) doesn't necessarily have to relate to a), it's just that in most circumstances (i.e. typical flask-flinging) it will happen to do so.
Monks have an ability called Stunning Fist. This grants them the feat Stunning Fist and the additional ability to inflict conditions other than stun. If a monk uses a Ki Focus weapon, can they inflict other status conditions even though they are not using their fist?
...and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target.
OK, sounds great, it's specifically noted as working "as if" you had thrown it, so it would get the INT bonus from "throw anything".
You still can't grant the "throw anything" bonus to any attack that is neither a thow attack nor noted as working "as if" it were a thrown attack.
Otherwise the INT bonus would be listed as a separate class ability.
Agin, though, given the ambiguous wording, as a player I'd accept the DM's call, even if I'm convinced that RAI implies the INT bonus is only good for thrown stuff that also deals splash damage (or is treated "as if" thrown).
Good enough?
BTW, don't you just love these logic games?
I have a 7th level Grenadier Alchemist in Society, and I have 'never' had a GM rule that your INT modifier only applies to actual thrown splash weapons.
If you read strictly RAW, your INT modifier applies to all splash weapons. Thrown or otherwise.
An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any.
The only reason this description falls under the Throw Anything description for the Alchemist as most times you are going to deal damage with splash weapons is when throwing them, but it doesn't mean it is exclusive to such.
Too much is being read into the title of the ability (i.e. Throw) and more should be read strictly in regards to the description of the ability, which does not specify only thrown splash weapons.
IMO it's clear that splash weapons don't have to be thrown to get the int bonus. After all the name doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with the mechanics. Panther Claw feat has nothing to do with either panthers or claws...
Like Hobbun, I've run a alchemist and have never had a DM say word one about my Flask thrower /Launching crossbow and +INT damage. Both launch splash weapons and by the RAW all you need to know.
"An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any."
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All in all, the alchemist ability is a bit of a misnomer, because it does something (increasing splash damage) that has nothing to do with the Throw Anything feat at all.To me, that suggests that we're reading the ability wrong. If the intent was to give INT bonus to all splash weapons that alchemists use, it would not be so mysteriously placed inside an ability called "throw". Admittedly, the wording is ambiguous. Leading doubtlessly to DM adjudication.
As a player, I could live with the interpretation being promoted on this thread. But deep inside, I'm convinced that RAI doesn't support this, and the rule is intended to give Alchemists an INT bonus when throwing splash weapons, not when doing something else funky with splash weapons. As a DM I would go with a more restricted interpretation and hope the players copuld see how RAI *could* be interpreted that way.
YMMV.
You're too hung up on the name.
Much like how the majority of Bardic Performances do not actually require a Perform check, Throw Anything (the Alchemist feature) does not necessarily require you to throw something.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Alchemists Fire, Acid Flasks, etc aren't defined as splash weapons. They are alchemical weapons which are treated as splash weapons when thrown. It even says this in the item listings.
"You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon." UE
All of them are listed that way, when you throw them they are splash weapons, they aren't inherently splash weapons. Holy water is a perfect example, it's not a weapon at all, it has other uses, but against undead it can be thrown as a splash weapon.
Since the grenadier isn't throwing acid or alchemists fire, it's not treated as a splash weapon.
Dennis Baker, all splash weapons are listed like that because when the base rules where made that was the only way to use them. Please explain how a launching crossbow or a Flask thrower can use splash weapons if they MUST be thrown?
PS: Zwordsman, there is a chart in the UE that in fact DOES list the subtype splash weapon. Look at the Alchemical Weapons chart and you'll see that that have Splash in the special section.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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If alchemists fire is inherently a splash weapon, why does it say it's treated as a splash weapon "when thrown"?
You would never say "A sword is treated as a melee weapon when wielded" because... it IS a melee weapon.
Similarly, you don't say "An arrow is treated as ammunition when fired from a bow" because... it IS ammunition.
...and so on.
Splash weapon is not a weapon classification in the either the core book or Ultimate Equipment where they are listed. All weapons that can act as splash weapons are listed using almost exactly the same words because many of them are not always splash weapons.
These items are listed as alchemical items or alchemical weapons respectively. When thrown... they are treated as splash weapons.
That pesky phrase "When thrown..." isn't throwaway text.
Dennis Baker, all splash weapons are listed like that because when the base rules where made that was the only way to use them. Please explain how a launching crossbow or a Flask thrower can use splash weapons if they MUST be thrown?
Could you please answer my question Dennis? How can you load a launching crossbow with a splash weapon if they are ONLY splash weapons when thrown. Which makes more sense. They produced two weapons that can never work as written or you are reading too much into "When thrown..."? I know what makes more sense to me...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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If it must be thrown, what about the other ways to use it? launching crossbow comes to mind, not sure if there are others. Flask thrower says it hurls them. so I suppose you can call that throwing. Launching cross bow doesn't say throwing, it says launch.
Does it not become a splash weapon until you take the action of throwing?
(i'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand your viewpoint on it)
I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative either, but IMO the point stands with regards to applying alchemical substances to weapons. It's not being thrown so you don't treat it as a splash weapon. It also doesn't have other characteristics of splash weapons, for example you don't target touch AC, nor does it deal actual... splash damage.
In other words, it's not a splash weapon.
THROW SPLASH WEAPON
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.
You are not bestowing the quality of "being a splash weapon" by throwing an item. You are using this special attack to throw a thing that is already a splash weapon, as defined above.
To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty.
This is information you need to use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack; namely, that these things called "splash weapons" don't require proficiency.
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.
Distinction between direct hit damage and splash damage. Note that this sentence is not the definition of a splash weapon; that's the first paragraph.
If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
Irrelevant to the discussion, but quoted for completeness.