Couldn't the same be said of rotten food, Buri?
I would argue it's also of lesser nutritional value. The spell makes it fit for consumption (read: it won't make you sick or give you a disease).
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There's a 3rd level spell called create food and water. To allow a 0 level spell to turn poop into food makes this 0 level spell akin to a third level spell, as poop is ubiquitous and easily obtained.
As for create water being 0 level: Water is one of the 4 main elements of the prime material plane. Spells that create fire and air are of similar levels and presumably these things are conjured from the plane in question. Show me the demi-plane of food, then we can start talking about a 0 level spell making food from waste.
At best, I agree with the idea that the poop will not make you sick after a casting of the spell, with all the toxins, bacteria and other harmful elements purified, but the nutritional value of it will be that of soggy newspaper. And if the seige were extended, perhaps one round of purified s$++e will get you through the day, but by the second and third goes, there's nothing nutritional left to process.
The spell does not CREATE food. So if an apple were dropped in acid and half of it was destroyed, the other half would not miraculously return. And that's exactly what is happening to the apple that you eat and poop out.
I'd even go so far as to say food which has been partially lost to rot will only return in the amount that is still intact: jerky will not become a steak again.
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Magic is a mystical thing, not scientific, so I wouldn't expect spells to behave in a scientific manner. Purify Food and Drink doesn't need to work on a chemically consistent basis.
I think the spell just removes from items of foodstuff the elements not present in the platonic ideal form of the foodstuff in question, i.e. the contaminants.
A regular, average turd pretty much does adhere to the platonic ideal form of a turd, so Purify Food and Drink wouldn't do anything to it.
I would rule that Purify Food and Water would work on vomit with undigested chunks to make nutritious food. I would also rule that "volume boots" of undigested liquids would make digestible water.
@RavingD
You are the GM and you had this situation/question on your table. How did you solve this and why?
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Step back and take a bit of perspective. Take a look at the OP of this thread. The vast majority of these type of rules cheesing threads are started by this one person.
I'm actually quite entertained by this thought experiment, I don't see why you have to get personal. I like DnD as a creative endeavor. To each his own evidently.
I would rule that Purify Food and Water would work on vomit with undigested chunks to make nutritious food. I would also rule that "volume boots" of undigested liquids would make digestible water.I'm curious as to how that would interact with Vomit Twin. Maybe treat it like rusting grasp cast on a ferrous creature?
I'd be inclined to support creative applications of spells, so yes, that or holy water as an effect. By RAW, the fact that it is an ooze would probably mean it is a no, lest it set a precedent.
Step back and take a bit of perspective. Take a look at the OP of this thread. The vast majority of these type of rules cheesing threads are started by this one person.Define food?Really? Are we really going there? Is eating s+*~ to twist a 0 level spell beyond its scope so important that we have to get into the semantics of what food is? Given these forums, I can't say I'm surprised. I'm just disappointed and honestly glad my players aren't like this.
I know that Raving Dork is a power gamer and rather good at it, but that does not mean that he is wrong. He has been right about quite a few ingenius solutions in the past. Besides I have given some rather clear argument about why it might work and all that I have been responded with is prejudges. It is true that humans don't tend to eat waste so everyone say "poop is not food" however humans do not eat rotten or decomposed food earthier for exactly the same reasons.
The difference is, rotten or decomposed food, is food that has gone bad. Poop though, is just poop. The contaminants present in fresh poop are supposed to be there. Someone's bodily processes put them there, as they are supposed to, because they are waste products to the pooper. Poop isn't food gone bad, it is a new thing, created with a purpose different than to provide nourishment to clerics and their flock.
Even if there are still some useful nutrients in poop, that doesn't make poop food. Considering it food for the purpose of the spell is a place you don't want to go, because where does it stop? Are there nutrients in sweaty socks? Are they food as well because of those nutrients?
I have a ready mentioned that rot is caused, by little creatures eating the food. Also create food and water is still far better then purify food and water because you don't need anything to do it, the texture and favor is far better and you would not expect people to go up in arms about eating it. This purify food and water trick is obviously only for very desperate measures.
Memo from the desk of Desna:
My cleric used my divine gift for what exactly?
Desna the light bringer
I have a ready mentioned that rot is caused, by little creatures eating the food.
Yes, and what does that makes rotten food? Food that tiny creatures took in a bit of, and contaminated with their waste products. In essence, still food, until rotted/decayed to the point that there's nothing left but waste.
Poop isn't considered food to begin with. In fact, the poop of tiny creatures is one of the things that the spell actually removes from rotten food. Because poop isn't food.
I have a ready mentioned that rot is caused, by little creatures eating the food.Yes, and what does that makes rotten food? Food that tiny creatures took in a bit of, and contaminated with their waste products. In essence, still food, until rotted/decayed to the point that there's nothing left but waste.
Poop isn't considered food to begin with. In fact, the poop of tiny creatures is one of the things that the spell actually removes from rotten food. Because poop isn't food.
So does that mean the spell would just remove the solid waste? Do I want to know what happens?
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The key here, I think, is magic.
If your character believes that a substance is or closely resembles food, go for it. If you were raised by termites, or saw dogs eat their own poop, the thought probably would cross your minds, and wonder, "Can I really eat this?". I'd say, in order to cast the spell, you would have to NOT have a high intelligence.
Now, the decomposition of food... Lets take a walk through a forest :)
1. you see an apple tree with apples: food
2. you see rotten apples on the ground: rotten food
3. you see thats there's good soil under the apples made from apples that have almost completely decomposed into fertile soil. Plant's verison of poop
Nobody would think of as food, unless, by chance, they saw some other creature eating it...
Poop isn't considered food to begin with.
Um...yes it is that's how it became poop.
It is sickening that this post has carried on so long.
Look at the subject matter (No, not literally). Is it any wonder this post has continued this long when we are talking about EATING POOP!
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It is sickening that this post has carried on so long.Look at the subject matter (No, not literally). Is it any wonder this post has continued this long when we are talking about EATING POOP!
Sometimes you really have to strain to push material out and sometimes it just gushes out in a flood...
I have a ready mentioned that rot is caused, by little creatures eating the food.Yes, and what does that makes rotten food? Food that tiny creatures took in a bit of, and contaminated with their waste products. In essence, still food, until rotted/decayed to the point that there's nothing left but waste.
Poop isn't considered food to begin with. In fact, the poop of tiny creatures is one of the things that the spell actually removes from rotten food. Because poop isn't food.
It all depends on how you envision the spell working. Are the waste products removed or transformed? If they are removed, then you cannot use it on poop, if they are transformed then you can RAW.
RAI, I think this would not be allowed or at least it would have some consequences (reduced returns or educed nutrition). Perhaps the urine could be purified (We do it all the time in the modern world) but poop does not get recycled into food (except for plants).
Um...yes it is that's how it became poop.
Poop isn't considered food to begin with.
So you consider carbondioxide to be wood?
You consider wool to be a sheep?
You consider water to be ice?
You consider a thousand year old corpse of a man that died at the age of 65 to be a newborn baby?
Um...yes it is that's how it became poop.
Poop isn't considered food to begin with.
So you consider carbondioxide to be wood?
You consider wool to be a sheep?
You consider water to be ice?
You consider a thousand year old corpse of a man that died at the age of 65 to be a newborn baby?
Do you consider a off topic rhetorical question a good replacement for a argument?
Do you consider a off topic rhetorical question a good replacement for a argument?
The argument against your argument why poop is considered food is so obvious, it's not worth stating. Instead I chose to provide some perfectly valid analogies.
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I would analyze the repercussions: If it worked, then there'd be no more sieges, no more siege engines, nothing. The players would not get caught in a siege in the first place, because no one would bother, simply because you could no longer starve a castle since they'd likely have enough first level clerics.
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I'm marking this thread as a favorite, nothing I've seen in the past three weeks have made me laugh this hard.
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DM: You are going out into the desert.
Party: We stuff ourselves with corn and peanuts. Cleric, memorize purify food and drink. Look at all the encumbrance we save over trail rations!
DM: just look at the time!
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No, it won't purify feces into food.
Why?
Situation : An apple falls into the sewer. You retrieve the apple from the sewage, you cast 'Purify Food and Water' on it. Does it remove the sewage? If yes, then sewage is not food, and it purifies the apple to remove the sewage. If no, then sewage is food, and you get an apple with sewage on it at the end.
Now, I don't think anyone wants to argue that removing sewage from bread, apple, cheese, etc is not what the spell does (the wording indicates it can remove adulterations, which sewage would be), ergo, the sewage is not a valid target of the spell to purify into food, not being food.
No, it won't purify feces into food.
Why?
Situation : An apple falls into the sewer. You retrieve the apple from the sewage, you cast 'Purify Food and Water' on it. Does it remove the sewage? If yes, then sewage is not food, and it purifies the apple to remove the sewage. If no, then sewage is food, and you get an apple with sewage on it at the end.
Now, I don't think anyone wants to argue that removing sewage from bread, apple, cheese, etc is not what the spell does (the wording indicates it can remove adulterations, which sewage would be), ergo, the sewage is not a valid target of the spell to purify into food, not being food.
That is actually a good point thank you.
This brings up another question. What if two foods that obviously should not go together are mixed together to make an unappetizing goo. What happens if you cast it on that?
Remind me to never eat anything you hand out in game then. :) I'd say that completely negates the idea of purifying food and water.
And here I thought I was on the edge with my Restore Corpse/Purify Food loop. :D
Let us say you covered ice cream with soy sauce what would Purify food do to it?
For the record, I do not believe this would create food and allow one to sustain one's self indefinitely. If you ate an apple and 25% came out as undigested waste, and then cast this spell on it, you would get the equivalent life-sustaining nourishment of 1/4 an apple (though it's not likely to resemble anything like an apple).
Couldn't the same be said of rotten food, Buri?I would argue it's also of lesser nutritional value. The spell makes it fit for consumption (read: it won't make you sick or give you a disease).
And I'd argue that if the spell can't provide nutritional value to waste, then it can't do so for rotten food either.
@RavingD
You are the GM and you had this situation/question on your table. How did you solve this and why?
Fortunately, the PCs broke the siege and so it didn't become an issue. No ruling was made and everyone had a good laugh at the idea.
My cleric used my divine gift for what exactly?
ROFL! I had this exact thought when my players brought up the idea.
Look at the subject matter (No, not literally).
*Fails to stifle laughter*
There's creative and then there is ridiculous. Dork seeks to prove what we've known all along. The rules of gaming are not good simulations. The rules of D+D and it's successors are essentially a wargame with roleplaying elements added on by accretion. RD tries to justify is questions by saying he's moving the game forward. But he isn't. He isn't pointing out anything new, save perhaps that the Internet has focused on us an unholy obsession with RAW text. It's as if the Internet has fostered the growth of a new form of Fundamentalism which is not unlike that of the most reactionary versions of Literalist Christanity.
Did you just call me a fundamentalist? :P
*Mutters "never been called that before" under breath*
And here I thought I was on the edge with my Restore Corpse/Purify Food loop. :D
You. Thought. Wrong. *flies off into the sunset, gets burned, and falls out of scene*
Let us say you covered ice cream with soy sauce what would Purify food do to it?
I'd say "nothing."
EDIT: I just spontaneously imagined girl scouts selling "purification patties."
And I'd argue that if the spell can't provide nutritional value to waste, then it can't do so for rotten food either.
Why's that?
"Rotten food" is food. The second word in the phrase "rotten food" is actually the word "food". That's the best clue you're going to get that rotten food is food.
Now, even if some rotten food may closely resemble waste, that doesn't mean that waste, or more specifically poop, is food. And the spell does something to food, not waste.
Again, the clue is in the words: "This spell makes spoiled, rotten, diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water pure and suitable for eating and drinking." The spells says it does something to food. It does not claim to do anything to waste.
Biochemical similarities between rotten food and waste do not matter, because magic isn't science. Magic plays by its own rules.
Dude, rot has no more nutritional value than waste. Waste basically IS rot and vice versa. This has been said multiple times in this thread.
I think the problem is that people don't WANT to allow for it because it offends their sensibilities. I might not allow it myself for that very reason (I don't want that to be the focus of ANY game I run), but that doesn't really matter in a discussion on RAW.
I repeat:
"Biochemical similarities between rotten food and waste do not matter, because magic isn't science. Magic plays by its own rules."
Spells do what spells say they do, regardless of what you think are significant real-world facts.
Again... Define Food? I feel awful for having to ask why food isn't poop and poop isn't food. Completely purified poop would have little nutritional value, taste awful, likely destroy moral, and... well... Yeah, there's a lot wrong with that. However you can still eat it.
If magic is magic, who decides how magic works? If RD is DM isn't he the arbiter of all that is vague and open to interpretation?
If you need food to be defined for you, you must lead a very tough life.
