Eidolon Shadow Form


Rules Questions


Hi,

I'm currently trying to build a Wayang Shadow Eidolon concept for a new character. I'm currently having an issue with the rules interation between Shadow Form and having a ghost touch amulet of mighty fists.

The way I read the Shadow Form Feat is that essentially you do 50% damage to corporeal creatures and 100% to incorporeal. Essentially the opposite of normal.

However a ghost touch weapon allows you to do 100% to both. The wording on the Shadow form feat unfortunately leaves it open to debate whether this would be the case.

As this is a PFS character I would like to know in advance what the ruling should be on this.

Regards

D


Based on the text of the evolution, I don't think that the ghost touch amulet would do anything for him.

But I think that that doesn't really matter for your purposes...

Additional Resources wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

As a non-fetchling, you wouldn't be able to use those evolutions anyways...I think....


Cheapy wrote:

Based on the text of the evolution, I don't think that the ghost touch amulet would do anything for him.

But I think that that doesn't really matter for your purposes...

Additional Resources wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.
As a non-fetchling, you wouldn't be able to use those evolutions anyways...I think....

he can:

Shadow blend and shadow form are from the Advanced Race Guide, and though they are more common among fetchling summoners, they are available to any summoner.

as for the OP:

Shadow Form (Su)*

The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct. This shadow form grants the eidolon constant concealment (20% miss chance), and its melee attacks affect incorporeal creatures as if it had the ghost touch weapon property. The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures. Source: Advanced Race Guide

it won't work. they eidolon is a corporeal being (albeit a bit different "shadowy and indistinct") that already has the ghost touch property.

addint it a second time won't change a think about it being unable to do normal damage to other corporeal creatures


I appreciate the responses.

Regarding the ghost touch weapon property in Shadow Form feat it only refers to ghost tough with regards to incorporeal not corporeal which is the issue I am having.
------------------------------

Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus.

An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons.

The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

------------------

Ghost touch allows you to bypass the 50% damage rule against incorporeal. It also allows ghosts to do damage with weapons vs corporeal. Essentially would the ghost touch ability work in reverse to allow a shadow form eidolon to do full damage vs corporeal.


shroudb wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Based on the text of the evolution, I don't think that the ghost touch amulet would do anything for him.

But I think that that doesn't really matter for your purposes...

Additional Resources wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.
As a non-fetchling, you wouldn't be able to use those evolutions anyways...I think....

he can:

Shadow blend and shadow form are from the Advanced Race Guide, and though they are more common among fetchling summoners, they are available to any summoner.

I'm under the impression that despite that note in the ARG, the specific rules mentioned in additional resources overrides that.

Since he's not a Fetchling, he can't select any of theirr things from the ARG, except for equipment and magic items (If I recall the exceptions correctly).


There is no way to overcome the half damage clause in Shadow Form. If there was, it would literally be the best evolution available since it would give you 50% concealment the majority of the time with no trade off whatsoever, and for only 4 evolution.


Nierak wrote:

I appreciate the responses.

Regarding the ghost touch weapon property in Shadow Form feat it only refers to ghost tough with regards to incorporeal not corporeal which is the issue I am having.
------------------------------

Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus.

An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons.

The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

------------------

Ghost touch allows you to bypass the 50% damage rule against incorporeal. It also allows ghosts to do damage with weapons vs corporeal. Essentially would the ghost touch ability work in reverse to allow a shadow form eidolon to do full damage vs corporeal.

still no.

an incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch weapon negates the 50%reduce damage to corporeal sources.

a corporeal creature with a ghost touch weapon negates the 50%reduced damage to the incorporeal.

eidolon is STILL a corporeal target, and he has the ghost touch property and so he does 100%damage to incorporeal sources. The penalty to corporeal sources isn't due to it being incorporeal (since it isn't^^) and so ghost touch won't do anything for it.

as a rule of thumb ask yourself this:
can the eidolon path through solid rock? if no, then it's corporeal.
if it is corporeal what does ghost touch gives him? it gives him 100%damage against INCORPOREAL targets.


Quote:


Pharasma

There is no way to overcome the half damage clause in Shadow Form. If there was, it would literally be the best evolution available since it would give you 50% concealment the majority of the time with no trade off whatsoever, and for only 4 evolution.

Trade off is 4 evo points and the cost of pumping in Ghost touch onto an amulet whose price scales very high very fast.

As it is the shadow form is useless. Unless of course energy damage etc is not reduced in which case you could try stacking as many of them on as possible.


Ah hah, I was right.

From Mr. Brock himself.


Cheers Cheapy,

Its still a useless evolution but at least I don't have access to fetchling.


Cheapy wrote:

Ah hah, I was right.

From Mr. Brock himself.

seems like you are, which is depressing seeing as they went out of their way to say that those evolutions can be picked by all but are more common on fetchlings... at least it is restricting for PFS only.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nierak wrote:
As it is the shadow form is useless.

As are probably 50% or more of the other evolutions, feats, spells, and other class options. Sorry you had to find out this way. :P


Cheapy wrote:

Ah hah, I was right.

From Mr. Brock himself.

You are not right. Direct yourself to the entry for shadow form on this page please. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons

The editors note states that all evolutions are available to all eidolons, just that the shadow ones are most common for vetchlings. Its silly to believe that only they can have them, eidolons are outsides, their evolutions are not intimately tied to the summoner, unless they are evolutionists.


I would not consider a 3rd party resource any more official than a web forum post that directly opposed what the actual rules state.

This is the link you want

Quote:


New Evolutions
The following evolutions are available to all summoners.

2-Point Evolutions
Shadow Blend (Su)...
Shadow Form (Su)...

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Eidolon Shadow Form All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.