Extra-planar refrigeration


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

Do things in a haversack or a bag of holding keep? Does time effectively stop for the things in the bag? Or does it count as a vacuum and delay molds and such things that require moisture and oxygen?

Does milk (in a jar) spoil in a haversack? Will meat get rancid?

If this doesn't work, are there other ways to transport highly perishable goods in a magical world?


thistledown wrote:
Do things in a haversack or a bag of holding keep?
No.
Quote:
Does time effectively stop for the things in the bag?
No - otherwise clockwork items (or living creatures) would tear apart when they're half in- and half outside the bag.
Quote:
Or does it count as a vacuum and delay molds and such things that require moisture and oxygen?

Oxigen is limited (30 minutes of breathable air for a medium character, as I recall. There's no vacuum - your potion vials would explode inside the bag if there was.

Quote:
Does milk (in a jar) spoil in a haversack? Will meat get rancid?

Yes and yes. It's no stasis bag.

Quote:
If this doesn't work, are there other ways to transport highly perishable goods in a magical world?
  • Teleporting them directly to their destination.
  • Transforming them into inert representations.
  • Moving really fast.
  • Undoing decay upon arrival.

  • The Exchange

    Oil of timelessness and the gentle repose spell are both in the rules-as-written, and depending on the GM some will say that ray of frost's presumed-but-not-written ability to freeze water can be turned to the creation of impromptu iceboxes. Flesh to stone could be used for meat, I suppose... seems kind of a waste of power...

    Time within extradimensional spaces continues, so decay and mold would advance at normal rates (at least for quite some time). Unusually, shrink item sets an object 'outside of time', so I guess you could store your bowl of ice cream in that.

    Shadow Lodge

    Lincoln Hills wrote:
    Time within extradimensional spaces continues, so decay and mold would advance at normal rates (at least for quite some time). Unusually, shrink item sets an object 'outside of time', so I guess you could store your bowl of ice cream in that.

    I'm not so sure about that. Bags of holding say they use non-dimensional space, which is undefined in the rules, but the rules for extradimension space include:

    Quote:
    A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension.

    Time is a dimension. If something does not exist in any dimension, it can not exist in time. That's an iffy argument though, I'll admit. And the spell used in the construction of those items, secret chest declares that time does pass with it, so one can argue that it does for the haversack as well.

    Let's use your assertation and assume time doesn't stop.

    Going into the more speculative end then. Prestidigitation says it can clean things. Is that a sterile level of clean? If put immediately into the haversack, how much will it help?

    Prestidigitate can also heat or cool things. Pasteurization only requires 161 degrees F for 15 seconds, that's less hot than your tea, so I assume presti could do that. (While not done to milk until the 1860s, it was done to wine in the east since the 12th century).

    What about cooling things? Since we're assuming time continues on in this frame, if something goes in cold, does it come out cold? Why not? Because it's hot outside the bag? 3 ways it could change temperature: Conduction, Convection, Radiation. Going with the logic that the space inside is limitless (no dimensions) the items are not touching each other (no conduction) and things aren't moving around disturbing the air (no convection). Radiation is possibly present, but I doubt it. The ambient conditions outside the bag should certainly have no bearing on the contents inside the bag. So, I assert that in the absence of a thermodynamic way for the temperature to change, even over extended time, the item will remain at the same temperature for the duration of its time in the bag.


    I suppose you could always create your own demiplane of ice that only you could access. Essentially it would be a walk-in fridge. Of course, that kind of magic wastage is even more extravagant than casting flesh-to-stone on meat.


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    One thing to keep in mind that it's often easier and cheaper to use more mundane methods instead of magic. It's cheaper to spend a couple copper to pay someone to fan you all day instead of using a spell to keep cool. It's easier to ferment milk (now it gets you drunk) or just simply make cheese since it keeps better that way and it tastes better to boot. Preserving meat is as simple as just salting and curing it or drying it out. A pound of salt is 5 gp and will preserve more food than paying 5 gp for a 1st level wizard to cast a cantrip. It's also 400 times cheaper than a handy haversack.


    thistledown wrote:
    Time is a dimension.

    Actually, I thought Time could, under certain circumstances, be said to have dimension-like qualities. But we'll have to wait until Paizo publishes the Ultimate Special Relativity Theory book to know for certain.

    Until then, I think it wise to assume "dimension" is used in the high school mathematics meaning. ;)


    I think the simple answer that most GMs would be implied to give are that no, none of the extradimensional spaces are immune to the ravages of time. Even in planes that stop time, when you leave the effects of time occur on your as you leave the plane. That could kill you if you spend your entire lifetime and then some inside the plane without that realization.

    As Ansel noted, there are cheap mundane methods of persevering food that humanity has been using for a long time.

    Salt-cured meat, dairy to cheese or pasteurized milk (though that's relatively recent), dried fruits, sweetened condensed milk, hardtack for bread (or other similarly produced bread-like products).

    Really if your wanting to save something during transport then just get a bunch of Ring Gates. It's not cheap, but you can transport the material everyday without a wizard.


    thistledown wrote:
    Lincoln Hills wrote:
    Time within extradimensional spaces continues, so decay and mold would advance at normal rates (at least for quite some time). Unusually, shrink item sets an object 'outside of time', so I guess you could store your bowl of ice cream in that.

    I'm not so sure about that. Bags of holding say they use non-dimensional space, which is undefined in the rules, but the rules for extradimension space include:

    Quote:
    A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension.
    Time is a dimension. If something does not exist in any dimension, it can not exist in time. That's an iffy argument though, I'll admit. And the spell used in the construction of those items, secret chest declares that time does pass with it, so one can argue that it does for the haversack as well.

    Except the term dimension in fantasy settings, unless specifically referring to spatial measures (e.g. AD&D distort dimension spell, which twisted the length of a tunnel) often refers to levels of existence, depending upon setting and world being synonymous to Planes or separate but similar concept of worlds.

    Shadow Lodge

    VRMH, time has been referred to as the 4th dimension for nearly 50 years. I learned it in elementary school watching Mr. Wizard.

    Drejk wrote:


    Except the term dimension in fantasy settings, unless specifically referring to spatial measures (e.g. AD&D distort dimension spell, which twisted the length of a tunnel) often refers to levels of existence, depending upon setting and world being synonymous to Planes or separate but similar concept of worlds.

    Hmm. Hadn't thought of that part. OK.

    On further reflection, I've also found a hole in my earlier logic.

    thistledown wrote:
    What about cooling things? Since we're assuming time continues on in this frame, if something goes in cold, does it come out cold? Why not? Because it's hot outside the bag? 3 ways it could change temperature: Conduction, Convection, Radiation. Going with the logic that the space inside is limitless (no dimensions) the items are not touching each other (no conduction) and things aren't moving around disturbing the air (no convection). Radiation is possibly present, but I doubt it. The ambient conditions outside the bag should certainly have no bearing on the contents inside the bag. So, I assert that in the absence of a thermodynamic way for the temperature to change, even over extended time, the item will remain at the same temperature for the duration of its time in the bag.

    But we also know that people and critters can go in the bag. And such thermal isolation as I described would cause a living thing to quickly have trouble. We might have hit the limits of "magic did it" on this part.

    My intent here is for my 5th level sorceress to keep cold things with her while adventuring. She also runs a caravan, and I'm vaguely looking into the refrigeration for those purposes, but ring gates, demiplanes, and teleports are far out of her budget. She's already got a haversack.


    Put a smaller steel chest inside a larger steel chest, insulate the space between the two with sawdust or cattle hair, top the entire thing with crushed ice and salt. That's pretty close to how we refrigerated goods for long distance travel until the advent of mechanical refrigeration. Only problem is the ice requires replacing which could prove difficult.

    If you want a more fantastical method, replace the ice with alchemical liquid ice (40 gp per vial). One vial per day might do it depending on what your GM thinks. It would be expensive and reserved for only the most demanding and affluent clients but if they want their fresh, organic, uncured meats and are willing to pay the price, more power to them.

    Actually scratch that. The rich have enough power as it is.

    Pound of salt: 5 gp. I'm just sayin'.


    Now I wanna make a Drunken Master or a Drunken Barbarian, and use the above method to bring cold brewskies with me everywhere.


    Prestidigitation chills drinks just fine.
    Cheers!


    In fact, in an early explanation of the planes by Gygax in Dragon, they were other spatial dimensions beyond the first three. Certain monsters could only be hurt by magic weapons because they extended into these other planes/spatial dimensions (one additional dimension per plus) while non-magic weapons just had three dimensions.


    Chill Metal would be a good basis for a refrigerator, similar to Decanters of Endless Water. As mentioned, Oil of Timelessness/Gentle Repose can handle decay.


    Why refrigerate it....let it spoil

    Purify Food and Drink

    Shadow Lodge

    Drakkiel wrote:

    Why refrigerate it....let it spoil

    Purify Food and Drink

    That's!.... a very good point.


    Drakkiel wrote:

    Why refrigerate it....let it spoil

    Purify Food and Drink

    I wouldn't want to be downwind of that caravan... wow!

    Just for fun: could you use Purify Food and Drink to revert salted meats to raw form? It seems reasonable to use the spell to "unsalt" sea water, so perhaps salted foods as well. Maybe you could purposely add wayyyyy too much salt.

    I know it's ridiculous, but it's fun :)

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    thistledown wrote:
    My intent here is for my 5th level sorceress to keep cold things with her while adventuring. She also runs a caravan, and I'm vaguely looking into the refrigeration for those purposes, but ring gates, demiplanes, and teleports are far out of her budget. She's already got a haversack.

    One of the reasons that many people call the 6th and lower levels a sweet spot, is that even the spellcasters are subject to the bulk of reality and common concerns that the non magical types have to deal with.

    Basically without a ton of magic that really shouldn't be accessible to her level, it's not going to happen.

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